The Right to Choose

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No, it is an objective truth.

It is an objective truth whether you accept it or not.
**
Why qualify “truth” with “objective”? In your world, either it’s truth or it’s not, correct?

My point was that not everyone believes as you do. When it all hits the fan and we must face our Maker we’ll finally understand what was going on here. I don’t object to your believing in an objective truth, but not every human being is under the influence of your belief system.

Limerick**
 
**No one wants to change truth. It just happens that another person’s truth may be different than yours. If you are secure in your faith then this shouldn’t be a problem for you. You don’t have to do someone else’s time in Purgatory or Hell. What’s all the fuss about?

Limerick**
We are our brother’s (or sister’s) keeper. It is not my truth or another’s truth, it is The Truth. I have no desire, will or capability to change Truth. What can be done is to point someone towards the Truth. Because of free will they can either accept the Truth or reject it. I don’t try to convince anyone of anything.

Here is Truth: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae_en.html
 
Limerick, I am going to pray for you in the morning in front of the Blessed Sacrament. I am going to beg that Jesus grants you mercy. This request is appropriate given that this is Mercy Sunday weekend.

Instead of arguing for your eternal demise with your hatred of the unborn, investigate Jesus’ gift of Divine Mercy. He is actually calling you.

Eddie Mac
 
**
I have yet to see a single effort put forth to constructively address the dilemma of abortion on demand. It appears to be situation normal here: “you’d better not do this!”, instead of “here is what we can do”. **

To follow your logic, instead of telling kids not to do drugs, we should teach them how to do so “safely”.

By the way limerick, if you want to dismiss the pro-life viewpoint as merely based on a system of beliefs, I’ll be happy to successfully debate the issue based purely on science and our constitutional system of government. Just let me know what proof you have that the unborn are:

a) not human (any geneticist can verify this point)
b) not alive (movement and growth independent of any chemical or electrical impetus from the mother prove life)
c) not merely a part of the mother (genetics provides a clear delineation)

There is no more a logical basis for denying rights to the unborn than there was to deny rights based on race.
 
Limerick, I am going to pray for you in the morning in front of the Blessed Sacrament. I am going to beg that Jesus grants you mercy. This request is appropriate given that this is Mercy Sunday weekend.

Instead of arguing for your eternal demise with your hatred of the unborn, investigate Jesus’ gift of Divine Mercy. He is actually calling you.

Eddie Mac
**
I do not hate the unborn. I am simply putting before you the concept that not every individual on this planet subscribes to Catholic doctrine and/or dogma. It is each person’s right to choose what higher power to follow, or to follow no higher power at all. If you believe that others will suffer due to their ignorance or disregard for your beliefs, that is fine. You are equally entitled to worship your God and develop your lifestyle based on your beliefs. If you “know” that Catholicism is the only truth that exists in the universe, fine. My points have been these: a) not everyone will agree with you and this does not automatically make them heathens, and b) if the abortion rate is driven by lack of self-esteem, a seeking-out of love when there has been little or none, peer pressure, or any number of other seemingly benign causes, then it is everyone’s responsibility to educate children and young adults, to love them and nurture them, to openly communicate with them, to allow them to experiment with “power with training wheels” (as you do in teaching them to drive, to make financial decisions, to choose friends). Parents often fail to realize how little time and attention they genuinely give to their kids. And, for reasons of embarrassment or fear, they will not** educate their kids with regard to the fullness of their children’s sexuality and the responsibilities that go with that package.

It matters not whether you pray for me. God will decide whether I’m due for grace or not, and he will likely deny me grace if I am to be evaluated by Catholic standards. I personally believe God is bigger and smarter than that. It will all come out in the wash anyway when I take my last breath. And it doesn’t affect you one iota.

Limerick
 
I do not hate the unborn.
You say you don’t hate them. It really does not matter if you hate them or not. You don’t love them, and you are not defending them. The strong are supposed to defend and protect the weak and innocent.
It matters not whether you pray for me.
Yes, it does matter. You will not change on your own, and we will not convince you on our own.
God will decide whether I’m due for grace or not, and he will likely deny me grace if I am to be evaluated by Catholic standards.
We strive to see things by G_D’s standards because He tells us that our ways are far from His ways and our thoughts are far from His thoughts. His Spirit guides us, us being His Church. The Catholic Church does not act on human terms. All of our dogma and cannon are guided by the Spirit.
I personally believe God is bigger and smarter than that.
I don’t know what to say. I have personal beliefs about G_D but I do not pretend to imagine what He thinks. Refer to the above comment. I do know that the times I have seen the G_D’s Hand in my life I can honestly say that the way He did His work in my life, I would not have done it the way He did and it proves to me the point referenced above.
It will all come out in the wash anyway when I take my last breath. And it doesn’t affect you one iota.
This is, to me, the only thing you have said that even remotely resembles the truth.

Eddie Mac
 
Originally Posted by limerick:
I do not hate the unborn.
Eddie Mac:You say you don’t hate them. It really does not matter if you hate them or not. You don’t love them, and you are not defending them. The strong are supposed to defend and protect the weak and innocent. How are you so certain that I don’t love them?

Quote:
It matters not whether you pray for me.
Yes, it does matter. You will not change on your own, and we will not convince you on our own. ** I have spent over 50 years becoming the individual I am and I have no intention of changing because you or anyone else wants me to. If God has plans to change me, He will.
**
Quote:
God will decide whether I’m due for grace or not, and he will likely deny me grace if I am to be evaluated by Catholic standards.
We strive to see things by G_D’s standards because He tells us that our ways are far from His ways and our thoughts are far from His thoughts. His Spirit guides us, us being His Church. The Catholic Church does not act on human terms. All of our dogma and cannon are guided by the Spirit. That is wonderful for Catholics. I am not a Catholic.

Quote:
I personally believe God is bigger and smarter than that.
I don’t know what to say. I have personal beliefs about G_D but I do not pretend to imagine what He thinks. Refer to the above comment. I do know that the times I have seen the G_D’s Hand in my life I can honestly say that the way He did His work in my life, I would not have done it the way He did and it proves to me the point referenced above. ** There is no way for you to “pretend to imagine what He thinks”, but it is no sin to imagine the depth and width and breadth of His being. If you pretend to imagine something you are not living authentically.**

Quote:
It will all come out in the wash anyway when I take my last breath. And it doesn’t affect you one iota.

This is, to me, the only thing you have said that even remotely resembles the truth. A Pyrrhic victory, that.
Limerick


Eddie Mac
 
How are you so certain that I don’t love them
Because you are so adamant that killing them is not murder.

I have not read all of your posts, but if you were to profess your love for me as you have done the unborn, I would tell you no thank you, I don’t want you to love me.

Eddie Mac
 
**
With regard to mapleoak’s dissection of every syllable of my previous posts, I very nearly respectfully but absolutely, completely and vehemently disagree.**
You disagree with what? Are you claiming that a woman is correct when she calls the unborn child “her body”?
**
I find it interesting that all the “it’s a choice” vs. “it’s murder” rhetoric so easily flows out of the fingertips of so many visitors to this forum, while actual dialogue engaging this Roman Catholic community concerning a solution to the problem of abortion is almost always overlooked, denied, sloughed over, ignored.
**The solution then, is use proper terminology. We don’t call murder of the unborn “choice”. Pure and simple. Problem solved.
It’s no wonder men and women, boys and girls continue to go looking for affirmation through sexual activity.
No, this has nothing to do with why boys and girls do this.
**It appears that the Catholic family unit is just as decrepit as its protestant and “other religion” counterparts’ family units, and I have yet to see a single effort put forth to constructively address the dilemma of abortion on demand. It appears to be situation normal here: “you’d better not do this!”, instead of “here is what we can do”.
Rave on. Maybe if you keep typing you can ignore your children and your grandchildren yet another golden hour, opportunity wasted, ego firmly afloat.
Limerick**
Nonsense. Start from the beginning of this thread to learn what the Catholic Church teaches on abortion. The loyal Catholic family renounces such things as killing of the innocent from conception till natural death - as the Church teaches. Your argument that this is decrepit makes no sense. If that is not what you are calling decrepit, than could it be that unless we use pro-abortion euphemisms and soft inaccurate language, is that what you say makes the Catholic family unit decrepit?
Next look at the title of this thread. Obviously the overriding sentiment here is going to be that the Church forbids abortion in ALL circumstances. However, many posters here have indeed offered advice on how to address the problem of abortion. Again read through this thread.
As for addressing the problem there are many, one way of constructively addressing the problem of abortion on demand is not to vote for, support, or encourage pro-abortion politicians. Another is get involved with your local right to life group and be an active member, volunteer with your local pregnancy crisis center. Another is to write articles in your local paper…etc. Feel free to start a thread on how to go about doing some of these things.
Now, back on topic and to summarize this thread. The “right to choose” is an inaccurate (wrong) euphemism. The Church forbids abortion and always has. The Church has always declared abortion gravely disordered (meaning matter for mortal sin). There is no excuse for killing innocent human life. It is not legitimate to disagree with the Church’s teachings on abortion. It is legitimate to seek understanding of Church teaching.
 
The solution then, is use proper terminology. We don’t call murder of the unborn “choice”.

TERMINOLOGY: The nonCatholic world (a substantial size of the world’s population) does not necessarily consider all abortion to be “murder.” Yes, that’s the term applied by the RCC, but not universally accepted outside of the RCC. Things are very simple if you believe you can force the non-Catholic world to adhere to Catholic beliefs, and/or that you can eventually convince non-Catholics to buy the RCC’s version of “natural law.” Natural law in the way the RCC understands and teaches it doesn’t comprehensively compute with all those outside the Church. They see, for example, competing laws & legal principles – some indeed “natural” or biological, others human or institutional/social. And you will absolutely not get nonbelievers to buy into biblical law.

It is not legitimate to disagree with the Church’s teachings on abortion.

LEGITIMACY: It most certainly is “legitimate” for the majority of the world. They have no requirement, morally or juridically, to agree with Church teaching on abortion. It is literally legitimate, as it has been legislated.
 
**
I do not hate the unborn. I am simply putting before you the concept that not every individual on this planet subscribes to Catholic doctrine and/or dogma. It is each person’s right to choose what higher power to follow, or to follow no higher power at all. If you believe that others will suffer due to their ignorance or disregard for your beliefs, that is fine. You are equally entitled to worship your God and develop your lifestyle based on your beliefs. If you “know” that Catholicism is the only truth that exists in the universe, fine. My points have been these: a) not everyone will agree with you and this does not automatically make them heathens,

Limerick **
I’m sorry I haven’t read all of the posts on this thread but when I saw stuff I left on here fom your quote I had to butt in.This website is called Catholic Answers.I come here for Catholic opinions and answers(although I don’t agree with all of the opinions I’ve read).What opinion do you expect from a group of catholics on a catholic website? Abortion is a sin. That’s how the whole wide world knows we see it. We all sin. We have the sacrement of reconciliation to have that sin absolved.That’s what we catholics do. You are not going to change us on that.Even if both of their lives were at risk and abortion was chosen we see it as a sin. Reconciliation is not punishment. She can talk to the confessor about it and I’m sure she’ll feel much better not worse that she confessed.Then she can get on with her life. It’s not that hard.She’ll probably feel haappy and relieved that she did so.Stop fighting it. If you want to start a new religion with your own rules go ahead a million other people have used our bible to do so. But I really hope you don’t leave. It took me a long time to come back.I feel blessed and extremely lucky that I was allowed to make it back.For who knows the bible better than the church who wrote and compiled it.You?Watch your step. It could be a very long one.And dangerous too.It’s your soul.The Holy Eucharist lives in the Holy Roman Catholic church. You can have it everyday here .It’s the goal. To be in communion with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.Where else are you going to get it? Any other churches that we are in agreement on about The Eucharist will also disagree with your position that abortion is OK.It’s your choice.What are you gonna do?
 
Re Post 214:

I don’t think any of this is the issue for the poster Limerick. I think he reads the number of posts and threads, by Catholics, decrying the non-Catholic world’s acceptance of the choice of abortion in principle (if not in fact for many non-Catholics). I think he wonders why Catholics should be surprised that the rest of the world does not agree with the RCC on all matters (in some cases, on any matters). I think he sees the obvious: that when you refuse to strive to find common language and points of essential agreement with others, but simply “require” agreement on one’s own religion’s terminology as a condition of communication, you will find yourself talking at those others instead of with them. (Yes, the thread was opened by a Catholic, inquiring from a Catholic viewpoint, but it also extended beyond that. And when you look at other threads, the vast majority of them concentrate on shock that nonbelievers will be nonbelievers, and What Should We Do About That?)

I also think he’s talking about moral and spiritual judgments about the state of others’ souls, when that is an area about which we (and even clergy) have limited knowledge – whether those souls are Catholic or non-Catholic. Even if you choose to ‘correct your brother,’ the vast majority of one’s energy (for any Christian for that matter) is to concentrate on one’s own sanctification – if for no other reason than the self is the only person over which we have control, not to mention ultimate responsibility. Both clergy and parents/teachers have responsibilities to guide, instruct, admonish, but ultimately they are not responsible for individual choices of others.

One’s first responsibility is absolutely to concentrate on one’s own holiness, and lack thereof. (However, reading many threads on CAF, one would never know that: one would think spotless angels who have completed that journey have been assigned to “straighten up” the sinners, which would apparently not be themselves.) Anyone who thinks they are, or almost are, at the destination, has frankly not begun to look deeply at his or her own flaws. Because it’s universal to have them, but fewer people than that are perceptive enough to see inside themselves. The road to holiness is a long one, and anyone fixated on where others are going has himself traveled off to tributaries instead of staying on The Main Road. Your first responsibility is to save your own soul. For most of us, that will not be finished until the Beatific Vision, which may or may not be preceded by purgatory.

If one feels it is one’s moral duty – from any platform (Catholic, Christian, agnostic human being) – to overturn Roe v. Wade, by all means do so. But it’s illogical to wring your hands that people choose to act within the civil law. It’s civil law – whether you consider it moral, religious, “natural,” correct or incorrect. That is why those of us with additional moral concerns spend energy trying to prevent certain widely accepted behaviors from becoming legalized (for example, gay “marriage”). We know that once they become institutionalized, they are difficult to reverse (unless by self-choice, by repudiation of one’s own alternative lifestyle).

I’m sure there are some more sober voices among Catholics, in the abortion debate, trying to find common moral ground with others and initiate restraints and reductions. Unfortunately, they get drowned out by those on the side of greater hysteria and less reason. And when that happens, public “debate” merely becomes a screaming match. I’m not suggesting that Catholics who feel passionate about the issue soften their principles – merely their approach and their language when speaking to others who do not share the same level of passion. It’s a matter of pragmatics more than anything else.
 
Because you are so adamant that killing them is not murder.

I have not read all of your posts, but if you were to profess your love for me as you have done the unborn, I would tell you no thank you, I don’t want you to love me.

Eddie Mac
**
I have not said that abortion is not murder. I have said that not every person capable of reason and thought and emotion agrees with that premise.

As for my loving you, it is your ideas I find unworthy of embracing, not you as a person.

Limerick
**
 
40.png
mapleoak:
Apologies. I thought you understood what the term “objective truth” means.

**I understand what the term means; it just seems to me that in Catholicworld, that would be redundant.

Limerick**
 
The right to CHOOSE? Choose what? Finish the sentence. The right to choose to kill a baby.
And you wonder why the church is against murder?! Really?
You know being Catholic means something. You self identify as a Catholic and then say you believe PRO Choice.
That is not Catholic.
Dear Lord Jesus please forgive those who do not choose to carry to term the life you have gifted them with. Your creation. It makes my heart hurt to even think of abortion. I love you Lord and I love your precious creation from the moment of conception to natural death.
Love in Christ Jesus
In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen

Ok, so let me know if I get this straight or not… You asked…
And you wonder why the church is against murder?! Really?

So now I have to ask this…
If the church is against murder, why is it FOR the death penalty? Is this not murder??
  • Not trying to be smarty pants either… but seems like the same thing… if murder is murder in all circumstances… taking of ones life…??

I am newly Catholic - I speak for myself and myself alone for I am the only one that walks in my shoes and I am pro life… however I have an issue imposing my belief on others when it comes to this situation for I would not want someone to impose their belief’s on me…
Growing up extremely liberal makes a difference I do believe however I feel each individual has a GOD given right to choose what choice is best for them at that specific time of their life.
Correct me if I am wrong, please.
👍
 
i’m sorry i haven’t read all of the posts on this thread but when i saw stuff i left on here fom your quote i had to butt in.this website is called catholic answers.i come here for catholic opinions and answers(although i don’t agree with all of the opinions i’ve read). **This is interesting - care to share? ** what opinion do you expect from a group of catholics on a catholic website? Believers of many other faiths, and agnostics and atheists as well, also visit this website. I come here to see if Catholic attitude has become less rigid - enough so to be forgiving and helpful. abortion is a sin. That’s how the whole wide world knows we see it. We all sin. We have the sacrement of reconciliation to have that sin absolved.that’s what we catholics do. **Is a person who has participated in abortion - as a patient, doctor, assistant, boyfriend, husband, family member - and has made a sincere confession and performed the assigned penance, never having repeated the act - still a “murderer”? ** you are not going to change us on that. **I don’t want to change you. I want you to accept the fact that others are entitled to choose their own philosophies and religions. **even if both of their lives were at risk and abortion was chosen we see it as a sin. Have you lived this scenario? ** reconciliation is not punishment. She can talk to the confessor about it and i’m sure she’ll feel much better not worse that she confessed. ** And how can you be so sure? ** then she can get on with her life. It’s not that hard. ** This is absolutely outrageous! she’ll probably feel haappy and relieved that she did so.stop fighting it. If you want to start a new religion with your own rules go ahead a million other people have used our bible to do so. But i really hope you don’t leave. It took me a long time to come back.i feel blessed and extremely lucky that i was allowed to make it back.for who knows the bible better than the church who wrote and compiled it.you?watch your step. It could be a very long one.and dangerous too.it’s your soul.the holy eucharist lives in the holy roman catholic church. You can have it everyday here .it’s the goal. To be in communion with our lord and savior jesus christ.where else are you going to get it? ** I find this very narrow. **any other churches that we are in agreement on about the eucharist will also disagree with your position that abortion is ok.it’s your choice.what are you gonna do? ** I don’t know about any other posters, but I’m going to continue my quest to find an open-minded Catholic. He or she need not deviate from roman catholic beliefs; they just need to accept that not everyone is Catholic, and those who are not Catholic are not “less than” or deficient.

Limerick**
 
This “debate” has gone from tangent to tangent, and now it has become one of “truth”. I hadn’t begun this question in order to have a screaming match - I actually was trying to understand something - I will admit that some on here have given me pause to think - but most of the time when I have tried to understand why the Catholic Church that I have belonged to since my Baptism would rather see me die for a miniscule chance that my pregnancy might continue but very likely wind up having the pregnancy and myself expire. I just can’t believe that the God that I have grown up knowing would want that and as I have said it was sad but I don’t feel any guilt for wanting to live and try again. Some on here have PMed me multiple times telling me to go seek forgiveness with a Priest - but to do that would say that I believe I did something wrong and I just don’t believe that.

Some on here say that their “truth” that abortion is the murdering of someone and never, ever the correct thing to do say that this “truth” is absolute. But this is their Catholic “truth”. They seem to believe that because someone in Rome has proclaimend this decided that it is truth, that it should be for everyone in every circumstance at any given time.
Ask a staunch pro-life person what the “truth” is and they will say the truth is that a woman has a right to do what she will with her body and anything in her body and they will also note that they must be right because the government believes this “truth” as well since Roe V. Wade allowed abortion.
I truely believe that we just need to agree to disagree on this one, because it has become a screaming match over who say it the most times, the most ways, the loudest -“this truth is absolute and no matter what you believe it’s still the truth and you’re committing sin by not agreeing with us…and you’re not Catholic if you don’t completely agree with this” Of course I paraphrase but this seems to be what has occured. I’m quite sure that people on here will disagree - although I don’t think they need to AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN - you are not going to change someone’s mind by shouting it hundreds of times as loudly as you care to. You are not about to change someone else’s “truth” by just telling them “we’re right because the Pope has said it-your idea of truth is completely wrong…” - if you ever plan on even trying to change someone’s mind, you need to find a better way to do it.
All religion’s seem to have thier own “truth” and many of their believers will stand by that “truth” and believe it is true for every single person in the world. And those people who have another “truth” will proclaim their own “truth” and say the others are completely wrong. There really is no end to this because it seems to be a complete circle that just goes around and around and around. No one on here with these tactics are going to convince someone else that is even just somewhat prochoice that they are wrong any more than a Muslim on here is going to convince an American that the Jihad against Americans is correct. If you’re wanting to convince people that your version of the “truth” is correct and their pro choice version of the “truth” is not correct than find a better way to change their minds than just yelling it and trying to shock them with pictures of late term abortions.

Also, it was said by Maple Oak

Neither did I indicate anywhere that you did. The correct answer though is that the unborn are not one with the mother.

If this is true than with your ideology, you should have no problem with a woman having a doctor take out a 2 month old pregnancy and if it can live it lives and if it does not thrive than it does not.
 
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