The Right to Choose

[limerick]

This “debate” has gone from tangent to tangent, and now it has become one of “truth”. I hadn’t begun this question in order to have a screaming match - I actually was trying to understand something - I will admit that some on here have given me pause to think - but most of the time when I have tried to understand why the Catholic Church that I have belonged to since my Baptism would rather see me die for a miniscule chance that my pregnancy might continue but very likely wind up having the pregnancy and myself expire. I just can’t believe that the God that I have grown up knowing would want that and as I have said it was sad but I don’t feel any guilt for wanting to live and try again. Some on here have PMed me multiple times telling me to go seek forgiveness with a Priest - but to do that would say that I believe I did something wrong and I just don’t believe that.

Some on here say that their “truth” that abortion is the murdering of someone and never, ever the correct thing to do say that this “truth” is absolute. But this is their Catholic “truth”. They seem to believe that because someone in Rome has proclaimend this decided that it is truth, that it should be for everyone in every circumstance at any given time.
Ask a staunch pro-life (do you mean pro-life here or pro-choice?) person what the “truth” is and they will say the truth is that a woman has a right to do what she will with her body and anything in her body and they will also note that they must be right because the government believes this “truth” as well since Roe V. Wade allowed abortion.
I truely believe that we just need to agree to disagree on this one, because it has become a screaming match over who say it the most times, the most ways, the loudest -“this truth is absolute and no matter what you believe it’s still the truth and you’re committing sin by not agreeing with us…and you’re not Catholic if you don’t completely agree with this” Of course I paraphrase but this seems to be what has occured. I’m quite sure that people on here will disagree - although I don’t think they need to AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN - you are not going to change someone’s mind by shouting it hundreds of times as loudly as you care to. You are not about to change someone else’s “truth” by just telling them “we’re right because the Pope has said it-your idea of truth is completely wrong…” - if you ever plan on even trying to change someone’s mind, you need to find a better way to do it.
All religion’s seem to have thier own “truth” and many of their believers will stand by that “truth” and believe it is true for every single person in the world. And those people who have another “truth” will proclaim their own “truth” and say the others are completely wrong. There really is no end to this because it seems to be a complete circle that just goes around and around and around. No one on here with these tactics are going to convince someone else that is even just somewhat prochoice that they are wrong any more than a Muslim on here is going to convince an American that the Jihad against Americans is correct. If you’re wanting to convince people that your version of the “truth” is correct and their pro choice version of the “truth” is not correct than find a better way to change their minds than just yelling it and trying to shock them with pictures of late term abortions.

Also, it was said by Maple Oak

Neither did I indicate anywhere that you did. The correct answer though is that the unborn are not one with the mother.

If this is true than with your ideology, you should have no problem with a woman having a doctor take out a 2 month old pregnancy and if it can live it lives and if it does not thrive than it does not.

Limerick

 

[SteveGC]

Admittedly I’ve read only about 2/3 of the posts here…

…but I wanted to share that if the subject has moved into a debate about “truth”, then that is not at all tangential to the topic. In fact, I think it strikes the very heart of the matter.

I’m getting a sense that there are some, including the OP, that think Truth is subjective. That whatever you learn, or are exposed to, and accept, somehow becomes “truth for you”…and it is not necessarily what is “truth for me”.

I think clarification is in order. The only thing that is subjective (that is different for different people) is belief, or acceptance. A single person’s belief can be in harmony with Truth, or it can be far from it. There’s no such thing as “truth for a person”. Truth is not possessive - it doesn’t “belong” to anyone. It just IS. And there’s only one version of it.

So, the question isn’t “what is true for me?”…it’s “what IS the Truth?”

Now, if we are Catholic, and we’re serious about that title, and fully embrace what it entails, then we recognize that Truth has been revealed to The Church. Truth, of course, is Christ Himself, and Truth is preserved by His Church in His absence in the form of official teachings on faith and morals. Catholics are called to submit to this Truth (to Christ), even if understanding is elusive. This is faith, and obedience, and it is salvific.

To rye, this post is not an attempt to declare my view one way or the other about your specific situation and decision (I can imagine that it was an excrutiatingly painful one). I just wanted to make sure that Truth was not becoming some variable thing that adjusts to one person or the other based on their beliefs, their experiences, their difficulties, etc.

God Bless

 

[nodito]

but most of the time when I have tried to understand why the Catholic Church that I have belonged to since my Baptism would rather see me die for a miniscule chance that my pregnancy might continue but very likely wind up having the pregnancy and myself expire. I just can’t believe that the God that I have grown up knowing would want that and as I have said it was sad but I don’t feel any guilt for wanting to live and try again.

Ryecroft, I thought of another analogy last night as I was considering your situation and I’d be genuinely interested to see how you would respond. When I try to evaluate ethical situations, I like to remove them from my own personal experiences, because I feel like it’s then easier to look at it objectively.

What if there was a woman with her infant child, trapped in an underground cave, where they won’t be rescued for five months. There’s enough food and water down there, but only enough oxygen for one of them to survive. Alone, one of them might survive the five months, together neither of them will.

The baby can’t do anything. He’s just a baby. But the mother has three options:

Option 1) She could stab and kill herself using a knife that’s in the cave with them. This would enable the baby to keep all the oxygen in the cave and have enough to breathe until rescue. On the other hand, the baby is too small to feed himself, and without having the mom there to feed him, he’d probably die.

Option 2) She could stab and kill the baby herself. With the baby gone, mom could survive the rest of the five months herself with enough air to breathe.

Or option 3) Mom could hold the baby, rock him to sleep, and try to comfort him knowing they’ll both die in the underground cave, while praying for the miracle that God sends someone to rescue them before the five months is up.

What would you advise the mom to do?

I would prefer to belong to a Church that would console and comfort this mother, while reminding her that only God has the right to call forth a child from this earth. It’s not that the Church would rather see her die for that miniscule chance that they both be rescued in five months, it’s that the Church would rather have it be unthinkable to her to kill her innocent, defenseless baby.

 

[ryecroft]

Limerick

Ask a staunch pro-life (do you mean pro-life here or pro-choice?) person what the “truth” is and they will say the

You’re right Limerick, I did mess up and reverse them - Thanks -

For Steve GC
Now to the other respondant - you have obviously not understood or decided not to acknowledge my point. As a staunch Catholic, you say that your “truth” is “the only truth” - my point was that just as you believe that your truth is the only “truth”, possibly because the Pontiff in Rome has declared so -so do other’'s believe that their “truth” is the only truth. Since you believe yours to be the only “truth” you say that it is the truth and only truth and it is not something that can be debated. But to those that do not agree with you, such as a pro choice person, they will say that the truth that is undeniable possibly because the government backs them is that a woman’s body is her own and anything regarding her body including a pregnancy is her choice to decide how to deal with and no one else’s-
I understand that you believe with everything that you know that this Catholic “truth” is the one and only truth and is not subjective but absolute- but I submit to you that the por-choice person believes just as firmly that his/her truth is the one and only correct “truth” - in this case it has to be said that truth is not objective - let’s take that word - objective when I look it up it says “Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices:” - obviously you are influenced by a personal prejudice being your faith and the way you believe - at the same time, the pro choice person’s truth is objective because of the way his/her life has gone and what he/she believes.
I completely understand that you believe your “truth” to be the absolute and undeniable truth -and I have to admire someone for feeling so strongly-- but to other’s your “truth” is what they see as a wrong belief just as you see their “truth” as a belief that is wrong. And no matter how loud you shout that your “truth” is absolute and they are completely wrong about it and will likely be introuble with God for not seeing that your version of the “truth” is absolute and undeniable, the pro choice person will not change his/her view -at least not as long as it is just shouted at them that your "truth is correct and thier “truth” is wrong. If you think about it, this pro choice person believes just as staunchly as you do that their “truth” is the one and only undeniable “truth”.
This reminds me of a movie I once saw where someone said “show me an army that doesn’t believe that God is on their side and I’ll show you the loosing side” - any participant in a battle believes that his side is the righteous side or that God is on their side. Trying to convince them by yelling “you’re wrong” is not going to help one side or the other believe that they’re wrong. My point is if you want to change people’s beliefs than find a better way than just yelling at them they are wrong and showing pictures of late term abortions - those tactics simply don’t work - find another way.

 

[limerick]

Ryecroft, I thought of another analogy last night as I was considering your situation and I’d be genuinely interested to see how you would respond. When I try to evaluate ethical situations, I like to remove them from my own personal experiences, because I feel like it’s then easier to look at it objectively.

What if there was a woman with her infant child, trapped in an underground cave, where they won’t be rescued for five months. There’s enough food and water down there, but only enough oxygen for one of them to survive. Alone, one of them might survive the five months, together neither of them will.

The baby can’t do anything. He’s just a baby. But the mother has three options:

Option 1) She could stab and kill herself using a knife that’s in the cave with them. This would enable the baby to keep all the oxygen in the cave and have enough to breathe until rescue. On the other hand, the baby is too small to feed himself, and without having the mom there to feed him, he’d probably die.

Option 2) She could stab and kill the baby herself. With the baby gone, mom could survive the rest of the five months herself with enough air to breathe.

Or option 3) Mom could hold the baby, rock him to sleep, and try to comfort him knowing they’ll both die in the underground cave, while praying for the miracle that God sends someone to rescue them before the five months is up.

What would you advise the mom to do?

I would prefer to belong to a Church that would console and comfort this mother, while reminding her that only God has the right to call forth a child from this earth. It’s not that the Church would rather see her die for that miniscule chance that they both be rescued in five months, it’s that the Church would rather have it be unthinkable to her to kill her innocent, defenseless baby.

**Ah, but there is a fourth option: The mother could stab her infant to death and then, filled with grief and guilt and shame and dishonor and fear, she could commit suicide. The unbaptized infant would not go to Limbo; it would go to Heaven. And the mother, never having had a chance to confess her sins and do penance for them, or be “cleansed” in Purgatory, would take the fast lane to Hell.

This is why I think fear is a much more reprehensible sin than abortion. It leads us to wrong thinking, failed faith, desperate acts and, perhaps, Hell itself.

Limerick**

 

[nodito]

**Ah, but there is a fourth option: The mother could stab her infant to death and then, filled with grief and guilt and shame and dishonor and fear, she could commit suicide. The unbaptized infant would not go to Limbo; it would go to Heaven. And the mother, never having had a chance to confess her sins and do penance for them, or be “cleansed” in Purgatory, would take the fast lane to Hell.

This is why I think fear is a much more reprehensible sin than abortion. It leads us to wrong thinking, failed faith, desperate acts and, perhaps, Hell itself.

Limerick**

Limerick, I really don’t understand this at all. You think fear is a sin?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Does Limerick mean that fear causes or leads to sin? Fear in itself isn’t a sin, fear sometimes is an opportunity to choose what is right in spite of everything around you.

 

[ryecroft]

to Elts 1586

So you are just sitting and “thinking” and letting us know you are pro-choice/pro-abortion. Ever hear of sins of omission? Or that you could be giving scandal to someone who is not solid in their Faith? Are you another of “those people” who question the teachings of the church, not only privately, but come to a public forum and makes sure everyone knows of your “opinion”? Don’t you think this is a bit subversive to Catholic teaching? I do. But then, that is only my opinion and doesn’t really make an impact on you, does it?

Nope, you’re right, it doesn’t make an impact on me -but I will say this, I did start this thread with truly wanting to get some understanding - mostly as to why the faith I have been brought up in would rather see two dead than one live. Unfortunately, most of what I’ve been given is “it’s wrong -accept it or you’re not catholic” - or “you don’t need to understand it, just accept it if you’re truely Catholic” - my parents brought me up to question things and I’m glad they did, I have learned so much from questioning and having things explained - this unfortunately has not happened here. Instead of being aided to understand why I’ve been told what I should think if I am to truely be Catholic. When the Disciples asked Jesus a question, did He just say - "that’s the way I say it should be so believe it or stop following Me? " That’s not what I remember.

 

[stormcloud]

Limerick is just what his name implies: an obscene attempt at humor.

 

[magdelaine]

When the Disciples asked Jesus a question, did He just say - "that’s the way I say it should be so believe it or stop following Me? " That’s not what I remember.

Read John, Chapter 6. What happened verse 66?

I’m sorry that you have not found the explanations you were seeking here; but there *have *been some real gem analogies offered you. The Church would **not **“rather see both dead”, as you have termed it, but simply does not condone one taking the life of another, ever. Surely you can see the difference? Please respond to post #223 if you would.

 

[limerick]

Limerick, I really don’t understand this at all. You think fear is a sin?

**Fear is a lack of faith in God. When I deny God’s ability and willingness to bring me through a trial I sin.

That’s the way I see it. You don’t think denial of God’s power is sinful?

Limerick**

 

[limerick]

Does Limerick mean that fear causes or leads to sin? Fear in itself isn’t a sin, fear sometimes is an opportunity to choose what is right in spite of everything around you.

" … sometimes …"? What about all those other times?

Limerick

 

[Agatina]

Answer to Danielle2459,
To the best of my knowledge the Cath. Ch. is against the death penalty. I know my priest is for Life from conception to natural death.
That is my personal belief also.
Agatina

 

[limerick]

Limerick is just what his name implies: an obscene attempt at humor.

**Where do you think I made an attempt to be funny? I don’t find abortion funny, nor do I find closed-mindedness funny. So point it out for me so I can drag myself back within the parameters of what you think is good taste.

Limerick**

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

The Liar, father of Lies, dancing around merrily, tangles the web of words even more to ensnare and confuse the unwary.

Does one desire The Truth, accepting The Truth when The Truth is revealed?

Does one desire The Lie, willfully rejecting The Truth when The Truth is revealed?

 

[Eddie_Mac]

Answer to Danielle2459,
To the best of my knowledge the Cath. Ch. is against the death penalty. I know my priest is for Life from conception to natural death.
That is my personal belief also.
Agatina

A lot of the Catholic Church magisterium have personal opinions that the death penalty is wrong and that it should never be used.

That is not what the CCC says.

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor

Personal oppinions do not have the weight of dogma.

Eddie Mac

 

[nodito]

**Fear is a lack of faith in God. When I deny God’s ability and willingness to bring me through a trial I sin.

That’s the way I see it. You don’t think denial of God’s power is sinful?

Limerick**

If a kid wakes up crying in the middle of the night because he dreamt monsters were chasing him, I wouldn’t reprimand him for not trusting God. He was scared, and I would comfort and console him. Likewise, if I’m walking in the woods with a friend and she sees a snake and is afraid, I wouldn’t see it as a lack of faith in God. Fear is often an unwanted, inevitable reaction to something that threatens our health and well-being, and being in fear is not necessarily sinful. It’s not that God couldn’t chase away the monsters in the dream or the snake in the woods, it’s just that He often chooses not to do so.

I think you’re trying to demonstrate that we shouldn’t criticize or reprimand someone for choosing something (like abortion) when it’s motivated by fear. God understands this fear; after all, he was human and faced death. He sweated blood in the Garden of Gethsemane because he was so afraid of dying. And yet he still said, “Thy will be done.” This is the example we have to follow: being afraid, being scared to do what is right, and doing it anyway.

 

[stormcloud]

A lot of the Catholic Church magisterium have personal opinions that the death penalty is wrong and that it should never be used.

That is not what the CCC says.

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor

Personal oppinions do not have the weight of dogma.

Eddie Mac

“if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives…”

The Catholic Church’s position is that, in today’s society, the death penalty is not necessary, therefore not defensible.

 

[stormcloud]

**Where do you think I made an attempt to be funny? I don’t find abortion funny, nor do I find closed-mindedness funny. So point it out for me so I can drag myself back within the parameters of what you think is good taste.

Limerick**

To put it in message board terms, you’re a troll.

 

[Mangy_Donkey]

A
And yes, there is a such thing as a Pro Choice Catholic. If you’re going to try to exclude every Catholic who believes that abortion is not allways 100% of the time wrong - for instance medically or for other reasons than you’re going to loose at least 58% of the Catholics (that was from one of the polls - and it was the most lenient -some go as high as 73%)

Loose? We have already lost them.