The Right to Choose

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Agreed it had nothing to do with love. If understand correctly, the choice was :
  1. Both you and the fetal baby die
  2. Only the fetal baby dies
  3. You get an abortion and survive.
    I can’t say that I am familiar with anyone personally who has had to make the choice.
    Are you in America?
    What was the age of the fetal baby ( months since conception ) ? If I may ask.
    My main point is that such a choice as presented above rarely happens in America, due to good healthcare, especially if the baby is viable.
 
ryecroft said:
You don’t know that you or the child would have died. You just had what the doctors told you. God may have had other plans.
the who freak

Yes, actually we do know that I would have died and we do know that had they tried to have me “deliver” the fetus it also would have died-these were not doctor’s opinions these were facts-I waited as long as I could and did almost die - no good comes from two deaths - I grant you that if some huge miracle would have happened then perhaps I would not have lost my life - and I’ll respect your opinion of what we HAD to do when you’ve dealt with it until then anyone who says that they would have done differently is just paying lip service-you have the Doctor telling you and your spouse (as I was in and out of it from blood loss and shock) that you may have waited too long for your spouse to live and that the only one that can be helped right now is your wife - so don’t you dare judge me-as I have said before - it was unfortunate that I even had to go through this let alone that it happened but I won’t feel guilty for wanting to live - the pro life motto is often “choose life” - well, I did.

and for the person that said I love myself more than a four month old fetus - it had nothing to do with love - it had to do with preservation of life and seeing no good or love coming from the fetus death and my death - as far as the brothers and sisters - yes, I believe they will be happy to know their mother and father and doctors were wise enough not to let their mother die for no good reason!
By the way - both of you are right - those are just YOUR opinions
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In reading this, I truly don’t believe that this was a willful abortion. You tried to have this child and lost the child.

Your intentions were to have this child, yes? Therefore, I truly feel that this was a life that was lost thru no fault of of the mother and no willful decision to end a life.

My previous post is clear cut for “willful decisions” to abort. For frivolous and selfish reasons.
 
traillius said:
Agreed it had nothing to do with love. If understand correctly, the choice was :
  1. Both you and the fetal baby die
  2. Only the fetal baby dies
  3. You get an abortion and survive.
    I can’t say that I am familiar with anyone personally who has had to make the choice.
    Are you in America?
    What was the age of the fetal baby ( months since conception ) ? If I may ask.
    My main point is that such a choice as presented above rarely happens in America, due to good healthcare, especially if the baby is viable.
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Although this was not a planned pregnancy, any pregnancy that my husband and I would have would be and was wanted. I was told at the beginning that I was risking my life to try to have this baby, but I continued and yes prayed. I don’t consider myself anything special by trying to continue the pregnancy and I know that most of you that read consider me to be a coward. I chose the doctor that allowed me to continue as long as I could (almost every other doctor wanted to terminate earlier) until at 15 weeks 5-7 days (or basically 16 weeks) I began not just to bleed but to hemmorage as well as have my kidneys shut down. By the time the decision was made I was in shock from the amount of blood loss - delivery and c-secion was not an option - my life was chosen over the fetus because the only other option (short of a miracle where the hemmoraging stopped completely and my kidneys began working without a problem) was for both myself and the fetus to die. Anyway, I guess as I’ve heard, according to most who are reading this (perhaps not this poster) the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I’ve had it with this forum - exception of a few everyone wants to play judge and jury and condem anyone who holds a different opinion. I really believe that the Church needs to come out with something regarding mother’s such as myself who are dealing with dangerous pregnancies - the God I grew up with is not nearly as judgemental as the posters on here - and I do not believe He will stand in condemnation of me. I am glad I’m alive so that when my health is good enough we can try again.
 
ryecroft said:
I’m really having a hard time with this abortion thing - I have read so many things regarding it on here, with the bioethics link - and gone back and seen where a fetus was not ensouled untile 40th day or 80th day and where there begins to be variations on Catholic belief. God gave each of us the right TO CHOOSE: Why is it that Catholics (and yes I am one - even though I’m pro-choice in most circumstances) - want to take the ability to choose freely away from someone. And please don’t give the argument that “the fetus doesn’t get to choose…” because we all know the fetus or baby has no ability to choose - that requires cognitive thinking - of which they are not capable. I am not trying to cause a storm of responses with this - I really just want to know, with most other things - we seem happy to let people choose - but as Catholics most seem to want to stop people from having that ability to choose. I suppose if abortion did ever become illegal, which I seriously doubt it ever will in all cases, people would still be making a choice - it would just be delegated to the richer people who could afford a private doctor to deal with it or take a plane to another country where it was legal - the poor would be left to back door shops where they could wind up getting sick from the procedure and die. Is it that most people are out for there to be some kind of punishment on Earth for those that go ahead with an abortion instead of allowing God to judge at the end? And if somehow abortion does become legal what’s going to be next, trying to get contraception outlawed? I used to think, (when I was much younger) it would be neat if we were all Catholic, but now I’m glad we’re not because I could see our lives and sex lives becoming something that was studied to see if we were living according to a book of rules - and taking away even more choice. I hope it never becomes that way because it sounds much like China just to the other extreme.
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Your not arguing for choice. Your arguing for legality in order to lessen consequences. totally different considering a person can choose to have an abortion or not even if it is illegal.

There is this thing called law. No one truly has the free choice to do whatever they want without any consequences.

What your asking is the choice to have legalized abortion. And when you argue on the issue of legality and law the argument of “choice for the sake of choice” fails.
 
ryecroft said:
I really believe that the Church needs to come out with something regarding mother’s such as myself who are dealing with dangerous pregnancies - the God I grew up with is not nearly as judgemental as the posters on here - and I do not believe He will stand in condemnation of me. I am glad I’m alive so that when my health is good enough we can try again.
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Have you looked? The Q&A section on Catholic.com exists for a reason, and yours is a good question. Why don’t you read a Catechism and see what it says about it? Pope John Paul II wrote an encyclical called Humana Vitae which is Latin for “Human Life”. I’m sure that it talks about abortion in detail.

And another thing. I know that this is a topic I have very strong feelings for, but if I’ve come off as mean in expressing my opinions, I’m sorry. I know you had to make a tough choice, and even though I disagree with your actions, I shouldn’t have stated my opinions in the way I did.😊

Peace.
 
traillius said:
I think it would be safe to say that you love yourself more than your ( aborted, I assume ) unborn child, fetus if you prefer ( embryo, zygote? ) If you don’t love your unborn child more than yourself, its unlikely that you would be able to love Jesus more than yourself. you have the ability to choose anything, although not the right ( No rights, for instance to fly planes into buildings ) rights are not abilities. Thankfully love will conquer all. May God have mercy on our souls.
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**I don’t think your love-laden evaluation of rycroft’s situation is going to impress her. It doesn’t impress me.

These things are a simple academic procedure until you’re the one on the table, spilling your guts and your lifeblood, being advised by doctors, technicians, and a husband, trying to pray as your life slips away, timers and monitors and buzzers and panicky voices drowning out your clear channel to God.

I get so tired of armchair critics who target us with their “love”. Judgment masquerades as love. Again.

Limerick**
 
this is not a popularity contest. I am not here to convince anyone. Abortion stops a beating heart. Do as you will, but be prepared for the consequences. The time for negotiation with those who support abortion has passed.
 
traillius said:
this is not a popularity contest. I am not here to convince anyone. Abortion stops a beating heart. Do as you will, but be prepared for the consequences. The time for negotiation with those who support abortion has passed.
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Interesting. Over half the population of the US opposes making abortion illegal. If you refuse to negotiate, what’s the plan?
 
traillius said:
this is not a popularity contest. I am not here to convince anyone. Abortion stops a beating heart. Do as you will, but be prepared for the consequences. The time for negotiation with those who support abortion has passed.
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I’ve noticed in my short time on the forum that there are a number of those who believe exactly as you do. However, as a matter of reality - whatever the issue is - when one side becomes very strident and digs in their heels, the other side will do the same. I am not telling you that your position is wrong. I’m saying that militancy becomes a self-perpetuating cycle, with neither side obtaining anything close to what they were seeking.
 
ryecroft said:
I’m really having a hard time with this abortion thing - I have read so many things regarding it on here, with the bioethics link - and gone back and seen where a fetus was not ensouled untile 40th day or 80th day and where there begins to be variations on Catholic belief. God gave each of us the right TO CHOOSE: Why is it that Catholics (and yes I am one - even though I’m pro-choice in most circumstances) - want to take the ability to choose freely away from someone. And please don’t give the argument that “the fetus doesn’t get to choose…” because we all know the fetus or baby has no ability to choose - that requires cognitive thinking - of which they are not capable. Are you absolutely sure about this? The Encyclopedia of Childrens Health says: “It was once believed that infants lacked the ability to think and form complex ideas and remained without cognition until they learned language. It is now known that babies are aware of their surroundings and interested in exploration from the time they are born. From birth, babies begin to actively learn. They gather, sort and process information from around them, using data to develop perception and thinking skills.” If that is what people thought should they have had the right to choose to kill their infants? I ask how do you know that fetus isn’t aware of its surroundings? That it isn’t gathering, sorting and processing information in the womb? I know that at least some of our children responded to music that we would play when they were in the womb. As pro-choice activitists lose on the its not a life, then lose on the its not viable then the argument has become “its not cognitive” I am guessing they’ll lose on that also–then what will be the claim?

And if somehow abortion does become legal what’s going to be next, trying to get contreception outlawed? I used to think, (when I was much younger) it would be neat if we were all Catholic, but now I’m glad we’re not because I could see our lives and sex lives becoming something that was studied to see if we were living according to a book of rules - and taking away even more choice. It’s not about taking away your ability to choose–it is about protecting the more fundamental “right to life” of the unborn human. Additionally you’ll still have the right to choose–but the choice will have some additional consequences that it doesn’t have now. You might have noticed that laws against murder and protestitution haven’t stopped those activities–people still choose to do them–there is simply a price to pay if they get caught. Your choice will still be there. What pro-choice advocates want it the right to take away another humans rights without any consequences and I don’t think that is right…
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Peace,
Mark
 
I am trying to say that it is all wrong to have one - I believe that there are cases where it is necessary - or has been necessary to have one. Like anything else when time is up on Earth, if you believe in God then you believe that you’ll need to account for your actions. Personally, we’ve had to make the decision and I’m glad we were able to make that choice because I didn’t particularly want to die for the possiblity for a less than 10% chance of both of us making it in one piece. When you’ve dealt with that kind of choice then I think you’re ready to weigh in on saying “I would Never EVER Condone abortion at any time” - if your wife’s organs are petering out because her body can’t handle the extra burdern and you have to decide what to do, then come and tell me that you can say for 100% sure that you would never ever condone it.
First–I am terribly sorry that you were in a situation that required you to need to make a choice. Second you are correct–none of us can know with 100% certainty how we will respond when faced with a difficult situation-- the best we can do is offer how we hope we will respond based on our believes–and pray that when put to the test we are strong and given the grace to live out those beliefs. Third even if we make a choice contrary to our beliefs–because we are weak and sinful creatures–that doesnt mean we condone the action–indeed we will repent, go to confession and ask for Gods mercy and forgivness and pray for the grace and strength in the future to do Gods will.

And yes, there is a such thing as a Pro Choice Catholic. If you’re going to try to exclude every Catholic who believes that abortion is not allways 100% of the time wrong - for instance medically or for other reasons than you’re going to loose at least 58% of the Catholics (that was from one of the polls - and it was the most lenient -some go as high as 73%) Thank God the Catholic Church is not in the business of tailoring its message to attract members to sit in its pews. The Catholic Church is in the business of proclaiming the truth so that we might be able to get to heaven. Luckily for us God and the Church call us wherever we are at in life–and hopefully we respond to that call and our lives become one of continual conversion, of continual striving to live a more perfect life, of continual striving to do Gods will, of continually growing in our faith and of persevering to the end. /quote]

Peace,
Mark
 
“As pro-choice activitists lose on the its not a life, then lose on the its not viable then the argument has become “its not cognitive” I am guessing they’ll lose on that also–then what will be the claim?”
**
It’s none of your business.

Limerick**
 
TheWhoFreak said:
Precisely.

Never. I would trust God with the outcome, because He is in control of everything. So I would trust the outcome to His will.

You don’t know that you or the child would have died. You just had what the doctors told you. God may have had other plans.😦

The Church has looked into these situations. THE ANSWER REMAINS THE SAME. For the Church to have the stance it does on abortion, it would have to look into many possibilities.

Personally, I think the Lord would find it honorable to make the choice that favored the child. I think that if Jesus were here he would call your actions cowardly and selfish. That’s my opinion as well.

My opinion is we can’t judge another because we don’t wear the same moccasins. Until we, ourselves, are faced with such a dilemma, we don’t know how we would react. My other opinion is, Jesus wouldn’t damn, but would open His arms in forgiveness.

They would be happy to hear you killed a potential brother or sister?:eek:

Peace
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limerick said:
“As pro-choice activitists lose on the its not a life, then lose on the its not viable then the argument has become “its not cognitive” I am guessing they’ll lose on that also–then what will be the claim?”

It’s none of your business.

Limerick
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Sorry–but protecting innocent human life is everyones business.

Peace,
Mark
 
limerick said:
“As pro-choice activitists lose on the its not a life, then lose on the its not viable then the argument has become “its not cognitive” I am guessing they’ll lose on that also–then what will be the claim?”
**
It’s none of your business.

Limerick**
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Check this out. How much more does Science not know about the abilities of the unborn child?

lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/jul/09071602.html

Unborn Child’s Memory Develops by 30 Weeks in the Womb: New Research
Thursday July 15, 2009
 
MarkInOregon said:
Sorry–but protecting innocent human life is everyones business.

Peace,
Mark
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**How is a fetus that is burdened with Original Sin innocent?

If you think it’s your business, then do what your conscience will let you get away with in order to stick your nose in someone else’s business. Don’t be surprised if somebody comes down on you for unsolicited judgment masquerading as compassion.

Limerick **
 
limerick said:
How is a fetus that is burdened with Original Sin innocent?
Original sin is not actual sin. The unborn child has committed no crime for which he or she deserves the death penalty and is therefore innocent.
If you think it’s your business, then do what your conscience will let you get away with in order to stick your nose in someone else’s business. Don’t be surprised if somebody comes down on you for unsolicited judgment masquerading as compassion.
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Members of society think it is their business when people are killed, robbed, raped, etc. Most people are happy to live in a society in which people are concerned about that sort of thing, and it has made national news back in the 1960s when it was reported that people *didn’t *care about others’ being raped and killed.
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*“Members of society think it is their business when people are killed, robbed, raped, etc. Most people are happy to live in a society in which people are concerned about that sort of thing, and it has made national news back in the 1960s when it was reported that people didn’t care about others’ being raped and killed.” *

**Unlike robbery, rape and one autonomous individual taking the life of another autonomous individual, abortion is legal. Maybe this is one reason why so many people view it as a personal matter rather than one that is a neighborhood or community or regional or national matter.

Limerick **
 
limerick said:
*“Members of society think it is their business when people are killed, robbed, raped, etc. Most people are happy to live in a society in which people are concerned about that sort of thing, and it has made national news back in the 1960s when it was reported that people didn’t care about others’ being raped and killed.” *

**Unlike robbery, rape and one autonomous individual taking the life of another autonomous individual, abortion is legal. Maybe this is one reason why so many people view it as a personal matter rather than one that is a neighborhood or community or regional or national matter.

Limerick **
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I really don’t understand your allegiance to the laws. Does the law have some sort of infallibility attached to it?

As I pointed out earlier, it was once not considered a crime to rape one’s wife. But people who were concerned about others, as well as victims, have changed that in the law.

Once, no one cared that 3-and 4-year-olds were spending their time on factory floors. But concerned people got together and made that against the law.

And the murder of un-autonomous individuals is still for the most part illegal in this country. It is only the unborn who have no legal protection.
 
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