The Right to Choose

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Original sin is not actual sin. The unborn child has committed no crime for which he or she deserves the death penalty and is therefore innocent.

Members of society think it is their business when people are killed, robbed, raped, etc. Most people are happy to live in a society in which people are concerned about that sort of thing, and it has made national news back in the 1960s when it was reported that people *didn’t *care about others’ being raped and killed.
That’s a very good point about members of society. The unborn simply are not considered members of society until they are born. That’s when membership is extended. Members of society extend protection to other members of society.

Are baptisms perfomed on the unborn? If they are accepted members of society, why not?

Are the unborn named? If they are accepted members of society, why not?

Do the unborn inherit? If they are accepted members of society, why not?

Do the unborn accrue tax deductions? If they are accepted members of society, why not?

All the above are available at the moment of birth. Why not before? It’s simple. They are not considered members of society until birth.
 
That’s a very good point about members of society. The unborn simply are not considered members of society until they are born. That’s when membership is extended. Members of society extend protection to other members of society.

Are baptisms perfomed on the unborn? If they are accepted members of society, why not?

Are the unborn named? If they are accepted members of society, why not?

Do the unborn inherit? If they are accepted members of society, why not?

Do the unborn accrue tax deductions? If they are accepted members of society, why not?

All the above are available at the moment of birth. Why not before? It’s simple. They are not considered members of society until birth.
And women used to not be able to inherit, and women used to not be able to get credit, etc.

I do not advocate political work for everyone or anything. But I do think that saying, well, that’s the law so everyone should just accept it–well, if we’d done that a couple of hundred years ago, women could still be beaten by their husbands, as long as the stick was not thicker than his thumb.
 
It is a choice to do crack cocaine, marijuana, or meth. It is a choice to rob a bank. It is a choice to come home one day with a knife and slaughter your entire family. Why doesn’t the Church endorse these choices, either?

And as for the argument that people would procure abortions, whether or not they are legal- well, that’s the entire point of having laws, isn’t it? If people are going to have abortions anyway, why not make it safe and legal? If people are going to do dtugs anyway, why not make it safe and legal? If people are going to commit rape anyway, why not make it safe and legal? If people are going to commit genocide anyway, why not make it safe and legal?

We may have the ability to choose, but that doesn’t make it an absolute right.
Bravo!
 
And women used to not be able to inherit, and women used to not be able to get credit, etc.

I do not advocate political work for everyone or anything. But I do think that saying, well, that’s the law so everyone should just accept it–well, if we’d done that a couple of hundred years ago, women could still be beaten by their husbands, as long as the stick was not thicker than his thumb.
Correct. We can see rules, roles, and relationships that govern membership in society change. And we can observe that under the current situation the unborn are not considered members of society, and don’t fall under its protections. People make it their business to protect other members of society against killing, theft, and rape. They don’t make it their business for non-members.

But, society has a number of subdivisions and overlaps. Take the society defined by the Catholic Church. It’s a very substantial one billion people, over three times the.size of the US. Are the unborn part of Catholic society? Are they baptised? If not, why not?
 
Correct. We can see rules, roles, and relationships that govern membership in society change. And we can observe that under the current situation the unborn are not considered members of society, and don’t fall under its protections. People make it their business to protect other members of society against killing, theft, and rape. They don’t make it their business for non-members.

But, society has a number of subdivisions and overlaps. Take the society defined by the Catholic Church. It’s a very substantial one billion people, over three times the.size of the US. Are the unborn part of Catholic society? Are they baptised? If not, why not?
The right to life of the unborn is recognized as an absolute right by the Catholic Church. In that way, all unborn are recognized as a part of society/humankind by the Church.
 
The right to life of the unborn is recognized as an absolute right by the Catholic Church. In that way, all unborn are recognized as a part of society/humankind by the Church.
Are they specifically considered members of the Church? Are they members of the Church society. Are they baptised?
 
I really don’t understand your allegiance to the laws. Does the law have some sort of infallibility attached to it?

As I pointed out earlier, it was once not considered a crime to rape one’s wife. But people who were concerned about others, as well as victims, have changed that in the law.

Once, no one cared that 3-and 4-year-olds were spending their time on factory floors. But concerned people got together and made that against the law.

And the murder of un-autonomous individuals is still for the most part illegal in this country. It is only the unborn who have no legal protection.
By autonomous individuals I am referring to people who have already been born and are up and running and generally self-reliant. So the “murder” of un-autonomous individuals (embryos and fetuses) are not illegal in this country.

I have an odd allegiance to the law because for a great part of my life I lived outside the law. Part of my amends-making is to try to maintain a life within the framework of the laws of this country.

As far as concerned people getting together and changing the laws, do you see that happening in the near future for the pro-life movement in America?

Limerick
 
And women used to not be able to inherit, and women used to not be able to get credit, etc.

I do not advocate political work for everyone or anything. But I do think that saying, well, that’s the law so everyone should just accept it–well, if we’d done that a couple of hundred years ago, women could still be beaten by their husbands, as long as the stick was not thicker than his thumb.
**But women are still beaten by their husbands. Making something illegal does not mean it doesn’t happen. True for wife-beating, true for abortion.

Limerick**
 
By autonomous individuals I am referring to people who have already been born and are up and running and generally self-reliant. So the “murder” of un-autonomous individuals (embryos and fetuses) are not illegal in this country.

I have an odd allegiance to the law because for a great part of my life I lived outside the law. Part of my amends-making is to try to maintain a life within the framework of the laws of this country.
So you are making reparations by your advocacy of the side you were once against. you might consider applying that to your support for the pro-choice position on abortion.
As far as concerned people getting together and changing the laws, do you see that happening in the near future for the pro-life movement in America?
Gee Limerick, I’ve been watching people get together and change laws on abortion for 40 years now. True, there hasn’t been the 100% change that we would like to see, but there has been a great deal of change.
 
**But women are still beaten by their husbands. Making something illegal does not mean it doesn’t happen. True for wife-beating, true for abortion.

Limerick**
The fact that some people still commit murders doesn’t mean we should eliminate the laws against murder, does it? it seems to me that quite a few *more *murders would be committed if there were no laws against it, just as the numbers and rates for abortion went up when the laws against it were rescinded.
 
So you are making reparations by your advocacy of the side you were once against. you might consider applying that to your support for the pro-choice position on abortion.

Gee Limerick, I’ve been watching people get together and change laws on abortion for 40 years now. True, there hasn’t been the 100% change that we would like to see, but there has been a great deal of change.
What has changed?
 
So you are making reparations by your advocacy of the side you were once against. you might consider applying that to your support for the pro-choice position on abortion.

As I have explained googolplex times, I do not support abortion, I do not condone abortion, I do not recommend abortion. I support a woman’s capacity to think for herself, to consult significant other, family and clergy in pursuit of the best possible outcome for her pregnancy. I choose not to intervene in her process unless asked. When stripped of its rhetorical value, “choice” equals entitlement to exercise free will, for good or evil. If evil cannot be chosen, the will is shackled and therefore is not free. I do not superimpose my value system onto the moral code of another woman: she has her own; whether or not it aligns with mine is immaterial to me.

Gee Limerick, I’ve been watching people get together and change laws on abortion for 40 years now. True, there hasn’t been the 100% change that we would like to see, but there has been a great deal of change.

**What percentage would you say accurately represents change in abortion laws through the past forty years? Please explain.

Limerick**
 
The fact that some people still commit murders doesn’t mean we should eliminate the laws against murder, does it? it seems to me that quite a few *more *murders would be committed if there were no laws against it, just as the numbers and rates for abortion went up when the laws against it were rescinded.
**So what are the specific figures that demonstrate how greatly the incidence of abortion will decline if and when it becomes illegal again in this country?

Limerick**
 
Note the abortion pill can be used 63 days after the last period. No matter what laws are passed, this method is here to stay. Look at the failure of the war on drugs. They won’t be able to keep this drug off the streets.
 
Actually, since getting some new information and speaking with some people, there actually are times where the mother’s life is allowed to be taken over the fetal life. It is a teaching called double effect - and there are direct and indirect abortions. I’m fairly certain this is why the Priests told me I did nothing wrong.

INDIRECT ABORTION
(Taken from “Medical Ethics” by Edwin F. Healy)

IN DIRECT abortion a living and nonviable fetus is removed from the
uterus. The reason for the removal is that the pregnancy, added to
some pathological condition from which the mother is suffering,
increases her difficulties or even lessens her chances of survival.
No condition exists, however, which makes the removal of the uterus
itself necessary as a means of saving the mother’s life.

The abortion is termed indirect when the pregnant uterus itself is
excised because its condition is such that its removal is medically
necessary. If the uterus contains a living and nonviable fetus, the
fetus will of course inevitably die. There is no direct attack upon
the fetus, however, and its death is merely permitted as a secondary
effect of an act which needs to be performed and which, as we shall
see immediately, it is permissible to perform.

It is licit to excise a diseased uterus which is gravely dangerous,
even though the operation will indirectly kill the fetus which is
enclosed in the womb. The reason is that we may rightly apply the
four conditions of the principle of the twofold effect. The first
condition is fulfilled, for the operating surgeon’s intention is to
save the life of the mother. He, of course, foresees the death of the
fetus, but he does not desire this evil effect. The second condition
is fulfilled, for the surgeon’s act consists in ridding the woman of
a diseased part of her body which is jeopardizing her life. Hence
that which he sets out to accomplish is licit. If the fetus were not
present, the surgical operation of removing a diseased and dangerous
part of the woman’s body, the cancerous uterus, would obviously be an
act which of its nature is not evil. The presence of the living fetus
in the diseased womb does not alter the nature of the act which the
surgeon performs. The operation is directly remedial regarding the
mother’s body and is in itself unconnected with the pregnancy. The
third condition is fulfilled, for the evil effect (the death of the
fetus) does not cause the good effect (saving the life of the
mother). Whether the fetus were harmed by the operation or not would
make no difference in regard to producing the good effect. The fourth
condition is fulfilled, for safeguarding the mother’s health is a
proportionately grave reason for permitting the death of the fetus.

The physician who performs an operation of this kind should have a
nurse procure beforehand a basin of lukewarm water in which the fetus
may be baptized immediately after the uterus is removed from the
mother. When the diseased womb has been extracted from the woman’s
body, it should be cut open at once and the fetus should be baptized.
If the fetus is very small, baptism by immersion would be preferable.
If the fetus is enclosed in the sacs or membranes, the latter must of
course be removed, so that in the baptism the water will touch the
head of the infant.

In all such operations, where the surgery has important bearing on
two lives and not merely one, the surgeon must be sure that the
reason for operating is a proportionately grave one. If, for example,
the fetus is near viability and an immediate hysterectomy would only
probably, and not certainly, diminish the danger of death to the
mother, the operation would be illicit. In this case the pregnant
uterus may not be excised; for since the surgery would bring certain
death to the fetus, the latter’s certain right to life must take
precedence over the mother’s right to a doubtful benefit. Again, if
excising the uterus would only probably indirectly cause the death of
the fetus, surgery would be licit if needed to remove probable danger
to the mother’s life. If, moreover, the operation would rarely result
in death for the fetus, it would be licitly performed when necessary,
not to save the mother’s life, but to cure her of a grave disease. A
remote hope of saving the mother justifies surgery which is necessary
to prevent death of both the mother and the child, for the surgeon is
doing all in his power to save both. It is taken for granted that
there are no other effective means which would not endanger the
 
A site that provides extensive information re abortion is priests for life:

priestsforlife.org/

Also informative is this site - national right to life:

nrlc.org/

The numbers of abortions in this country (and worldwide) have risen astronomically
since the days when abortion was held to be fully illegal around the world.

Addition

Of compelling interest are the numbers calculated at site:
physiciansforlife.org/content/view/885/26/

"Thus, at a daily rate, the number of legal abortions has increased from 22 per day prior to 1967, to 4407 per day in 1990, and has since decreased to 3,597 per day.

But have not legal abortions simply replaced illegal abortion so that today we have about the same number of induced abortions that we had prior to Roe v. Wade? The answer is most definitely “No”."
 
All laws force the morals of one group upon another. Why should this issue be any different?
 
All laws force the morals of one group upon another. Why should this issue be any different?
Morals are not made by groups. Morals are from God. Insofar as one group’s understanding of morals aligns with that of God’s, they are a moral people. Insofar as a group’s understanding of morality deviates from God’s, they are immoral.
 
Actually, since getting some new information and speaking with some people, there actually are times where the mother’s life is allowed to be taken over the fetal life. It is a teaching called double effect - and there are direct and indirect abortions. I’m fairly certain this is why the Priests told me I did nothing wrong. …
The mother’s life is not “taken over” the unborn child’s life. The loss of the child is an unfortunate side-effect of treating the mother. It is simply all right to treat the mother, as it always is.

I am glad that you found this information pertaining to your situation and hope that your new understanding will give you peace.
 
Morals are not made by groups. Morals are from God. Insofar as one group’s understanding of morals aligns with that of God’s, they are a moral people. Insofar as a group’s understanding of morality deviates from God’s, they are immoral.
Call them what you will. Every group develops behavior guidelines. Some call them morals.Some say they come from god. Some say they come from nature. Some say they come from tradition. Some say they come from biology. Some say they are the product of natural selection.

But, they are all behavior guidelines. They may differ from each other, and each group will claim their behavior guidelines are better than the other guys’. Lots of opinions.
 
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