The "right" to... whatever!

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Hello Fran, please intrude, the more voices the better?
Some believe, some don’t. Some offer evidence to support their beliefs, some don’t. To make an informed decision one should do so on a factual basis?
PRmerger offered some information that I do in fact find interesting. And I do appreciate it.

But if you can show me where I treated some dumb for believing in Jesus, I would appreciate that as well.
I kind of came in and have lost much. But here’s how I understand your post:

Re: The “right” to… whatever!
Quote:
Originally Posted by PRmerger View Post
Indeed.

There is hardly a single academic, atheist or believer, who disputes that Jesus Christ, the historical Jew of ancient Palestine, lived, preached, established a church and was killed by Roman authorities.

To which you answered:
.
Hello PRmerger, I find this quite interesting, in fact intriguing, could I get a short list of atheists that support this claim?

So, if I understand correctly, you’re asking for a list of atheists that believe Jesus was in fact a historical figure.

If you’re asking for a list, you’re asking for proof.

That Jesus was a historical figure.

If you’re looking for proof, it means you don’t believe He was.

If I believe trolls live under my little bridge in town:

I must be pretty dumb.

Did I misunderstand something??

Fran
 
Hello Fran, please intrude, the more voices the better?
Some believe, some don’t. Some offer evidence to support their beliefs, some don’t. To make an informed decision one should do so on a factual basis?
PRmerger offered some information that I do in fact find interesting. And I do appreciate it.

But if you can show me** where I treated some dumb for believing in Jesus**, I would appreciate that as well.
Oh. BTW, believing in Jesus is different from believing that He was a historical figure.

I guess that would make one twice as dumb?
 
But no one with any sense tries to “explain away evil”. On the contrary, we believe that evil is personified in Satan. We also believe in hoardes of fallen angels that engage and foment evil. One way this is done is through tempting humans to do evil, of which there is plenty.
That is also explaining away the existence of evil. Why does God “allow” Satan to roam freely and corrupt us, gullible humans? And, as we can see from the book of Job, God and Satan are good buddies, playing “chess” with human pawns, sacrificing Job’s family, children, etc… What a “loving” game.
Clearly your skepticism is immune from such interventions.
Clearly? You declare yourself a “scientist”, and yet you make far too many unsupported assumptions.
The laws of physics can, and are, changed. They are just descriptions of how the material universe functions, but the spiritual realm is more powerful.
So that spiritual realm can change the speed of light (in vacuum) to whatever it pleases? That would be another interesting miracle.
I think not. It seems clear from your posts that there is no acceptable manner in which God can prove Himself to you.
Clearly? Again? Let’s see. An unknown nun asserts that she had some incurable disease. She asserts that she prayed to the freshly passed away JPII. She asserts that due to JP’s intervention the disease went away. This story was declared a “miracle” and was used as a supporting evidence sufficient for JP’s canonization. You swallow this “miracle” hook, line and sinker. But you try to find excuse to the hypothetical scenario I presented to prove that it would not be a miracle. Interesting “standards”.
The rules and standards are appaling and unreasonable.
The rules and standards are always the same. I reject the concept that “extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs”. ALL claims are kept to the same standard. It is the believers who wish to create a different standard for God. The problem is that they also want to use the same word and attach to it a different meaning. That is appalling and unreasonable.
God has presented Himself in such a way that those who wish to believe are able.
That is the ultimate hubris. If God WOULD care about us, then the revelation WOULD be tailored to the person’s necessities. One size does not fit all.
God is our creator, and He is above our standards and judgements. You have replaced God with yourself, and reserved the right to define what is “loving” and “caring”.
Another example of trying to “explain away”. After all you reserve the right to call God “good” and “loving”. I merely hold you to the same standard. There is no separate definition of “love” when you speak of God and when you speak of humans. God’s “love” could be much better, but not FUNDAMENTALLY and DIAMETRICALLY different. What would be the adjective you would use to describe a human parent, who would behave like God does?
True freedom includes the freedom to disobey, and rebel.
No, it does NOT. As Winston Smith said: “Freedom is the freedom to say two and two makes four. If that is granted, everything else follows” (1984)
Your statement reflects the fact that you do not understand what love is.
Another condescending remark.
It does not work that way. True freedom means that a person has a choice. A choice means that what is unwanted also exists. You do not understand freedom either.
Another condescending remark. You guys just never run out of those. 🙂 I will try again: “The unwanted choice exists, EVEN if no one ever makes that selection”. Just like in my utopia, where everyone is free to make those unwanted choices.
 
Okay. But you’re basing your choice on something real and acceptable: Your upbringing.
So, you see, you DO have a choice and you chose correctly.
Yes. And I am a nice person, BECAUSE I want to choose correctly. My upbringing does NOT force me to get up. I am perfectly free to stay seated. I just don’t make THAT selection.
But in the scenario you brought forth in your previous post, you said you’d create a world where everyone would want to be nice.
Yes. And because they are nice, they would also WANT to choose correctly.
So if you create everyone to want to be nice - there is no longer a choice available to them!

See?
No, I don’t see.
The choice comes in when I could CHOOSE to NOT get up for the old lady.
Sure. The choice is there, even if you do not select it. Savvy?
 
And as Aquinas said: if the resurrection did not happen then all the faith is groundless.
😃

Let me one-up you, PA.

Someone said that before Aquinas.

It was…

St. Paul.
Where is the evidence of that resurrection?
usccb.org/bible/scripture.cfm?bk=Matthew&ch=

usccb.org/bible/scripture.cfm?bk=Mark&ch=

usccb.org/bible/scripture.cfm?bk=Luke&ch=

usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/index.cfm#Matthew

etc, etc, etc.

See 27 ancient texts which attest to that.
 
I find it hard to separate the two (although you did say ‘mutual’ which isn’t necessarily relevant).
Well, I was only repeating the phrase used by Pallas Athene.
Mutual respect, even if it does not entail mutual acceptance is what would make this world much more acceptable.
Mutual respect of persons, yes.

Mutual respect of ideas, NO.

I have NO RESPECT for this idea:

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=20227&d=1403928673

Surely you don’t have respect for this idea, right?
 
Fun to die for someone who never existed.
Egg-zactly.

While it may be proposed that the Christian martyrs centuries later may have been dying for a legend, we still need an atheistic explanation for the first Christians who went to their deaths proclaiming the kergyma, never once recanting under gruesome, horrific torture…never once saying, “Ok! It’s true! I never really did see him alive again after he was crucified! I made it all up!”
 
😃
Let me one-up you, PA.
Someone said that before Aquinas.
It was…
St. Paul.
Thank you for the correction.
Sure… it is called self-authentication.
  • People say that the Bible is the word of God.
  • Evidence?
  • It is the Bible.
  • How do we know that the Bible is correct?
  • Simple. God would not lie to us.
Sorry… not acceptable.
 
You say that you would create mankind to desire the good, but you have enough power to choose this for yourself, and yet refuse.
Oho! A trenchant point, indeed. 👍

So this prompts the question to** Pallas Athene:**
What is your explanation for why your desire to do good doesn’t meet with an actual life that IS good?

Now, to be sure, you are a good person, in general. But you need an explanation for why you choose to have your Starbucks rather than donate the $5 for the Syrian refugees, or why you choose to sleep in rather than go to the homeless shelter, why you have 2 extra blankets in your closet rather than giving them both to the family on the street.

And please, please, please try to think in the abstract here. Please do use a lame, “Well, since I live in 80 degree weather I don’t actually have blankets in my house” or “I am a whiskey drinker not a coffee drinker”.

Apply any kind of behavior that you do that you know you could do for others, but you choose to do for yourself.
 
And, as we can see from the book of Job, God and Satan are good buddies, playing “chess” with human pawns, sacrificing Job’s family, children, etc… What a “loving” game.
I have often said that Fundamentalist Bible Christians and atheists have the same view of the Bible.

It is amusing to me to think of Fundamentalist Christians and atheists in the same camp.



https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61EYfoF3LpL.UX250.jpg

We don’t read the Bible with the same lens that you and Fundamentalists do, PA.

Napoleon is said to have remarked, “Scratch a Russian, find a Tartar”. I say, 'Scratch an atheist, find a fundamentalist".
 
Sure… it is called self-authentication.
  • People say that the Bible is the word of God.
No, PA.

One need not look at the Bible as the Word of God.

One simply can look at it as an ancient historical text.

There are over 20 texts which detail the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Are there any other historical events which you deny which have over 20 different texts authenticating its occurrence?
 
No, it is not. When a child asserts that “Sandy Claws” exists, he does NOT lie, he simply believes in a nonexistent being. A lie is an intentional distortion of what one knows is incorrect. HUGE difference.
Think about this, PA.

The legend of Sandy Claws didn’t appear, magically, out of thin air.

Someone had to create this legend.

And that means…someone KNEW it was not true, but proclaimed it nonetheless.

Why would someone create a legend about Christ, lying about his resurrection, while going to his gruesome death not recanting?

No one dies knowing he’s promoting a lie.
 
Think about this, PA.

The legend of Sandy Claws didn’t appear, magically, out of thin air.

Someone had to create this legend.

And that means…someone KNEW it was not true, but proclaimed it nonetheless.

Why would someone create a legend about Christ, lying about his resurrection, while going to his gruesome death not recanting?

No one dies knowing he’s promoting a lie.
Actually Santa Claus morphed out of legends and true history. He was originally St. Nicholas, who was a very generous man. Santa Claus personifies the love that comes from God who is Christ.

Whether the whole story of Christ as told in the Gospels is completely accurate or embellished for the sake of the audience , it is the story of God who became human and died for the salvation of the world. Greater love the world has never known.
 
Just like the proposed inhabitants of my hypothetic world. They would be created to be free to choose rapes and such, but would not WANT to do it.
THEY **COULD NOT WANT TO DO IT **BECAUSE, UNDER YOUR SCENARIO, GOD HAD DESTINED THEM FROM THE MOMENT OF THEIR CREATION NEVER TO CHOOSE EVIL.

Ergo, they are still well-designed robots. 😉
 
I am not aware of it. Maybe I am just an imbecile with an IQ of 60 or less, but I cannot see any “holes”. Where and what are they?

So, was it a free choice? Or was I a robot? Because that it the question.

If everyone has the option to kill, torture, maim, etc… and NO ONE chooses those options, does it make the people “robots”? And they do not choose that option, because even the thought of those actions is revolting to them. Not because someone performs a quick brainwashing on them.
If you always choose to give your seat to an old lady, like you claim, you would be a robot. But if you make discerning choices based on everything you felt and observed, then you are a human. Maybe one day you had a bad day and you don’t feel like giving up your seat to anyone. You are a human. Sometimes humans do bad things.
 
Love your last sentence. Think I had brought this up earlier.
Indeed you did, and I echo your sentiment. 👍
But my question is:

The Code of Hammurabi is a myth?

Fran
Pallas is describing Christianity as a “myth” that has no historical evidence. In fact, it has more historical evidence than the Code of H. I suppose we could get into the definition of “myth”, but in this context, I am referring to a code of conduct that has roots in historical events. Christianity, or so it is being asserted, does not have any such roots. It is a preposterous assertion, really.
Still just a story.
There is no historical evidence at all.

Lied? No. They simply copied down a previous story. The usual “liar, lunatic or lord” sorely needs the fourth possibility: “legend”.

Since nothing ever happened, I cannot comment on what would I have done IF it happened.

But I am not interested in a 2000 years old story. Show me some contemporary evidence, which can be verified.
Pallas is asserting in the OP that there are no human rights because there is no God or religion that can grant or protect such rights. Jesus is not an historical figure, just a “legend” or “myth”, the miracles attributed to him are “hallucinations shared by thousands around the world” etc, etc.

If you need something to gasp about, read the OP’s posts in the thread. For a person such as yourself, who is well acquainted with the history of Christianity, you will be amazed at how much historical evidence needs to be ignored to espouse this position.

As was noted above (references cited) even atheist historians will accept that Jesus was an actual historical figure.
 
You do have a way of getting me involved…
That is what it is all about! What fun would a forum be without a good spar?
It’s just that I don’t agree with you and sometimes you make arguments that make no sense.
That’s not a derogatory remark. It’s not about YOU personally. I don’t know you. It’s a remark about what you say. You could be a very nice person, but say something that doesn’t make sense and I’m allowed to comment and say it makes no sense. Hope you see the difference.
I do, and I am glad we can agree on this principle. 👍

I trust that you and the other members will keep me honest if I stray from the argument to the personal.
Hello Fran, please intrude, the more voices the better?
Some believe, some don’t. Some offer evidence to support their beliefs, some don’t. To make an informed decision one should do so on a factual basis?
PRmerger offered some information that I do in fact find interesting. And I do appreciate it.

But if you can show me where I treated some dumb for believing in Jesus, I would appreciate that as well.
It is not even and intrusion! It is free for all! And yes the more voices the better.

Did someone accuse you of treating someone “dumb” for not believing? I think I am more guilty of that. I posted the scripture that says “a fool says in his heart there is no God”. I think the capacity to imagine God is proof there is a God. 😃
 
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