The rise of the Pentecostals

[FabiusMaximus]

My father and mother inlaw drink beers on hot days and they are attending a Pentecostal church. The pastor is a student of Rod Parsley(know anything about him? If so please elaborate) is no alcohol a typical Pentecostal teaching? I mean absolutely no disrespect but how do Pentecostals see the catholic church and it’s apostolic origins in the context that the Pentecostal communities are not apostolic or in other words how do they justify inventing a new doctorines and new denomination outside of the One Holy Catholic apostolic church that Christ started? If Christ started it how did the revival movement start their own?

The alcohol teaching varies among Pentecostal churches.

My father is ordained in the Assemblies of God in Italy, and I’ve never been told that alcohol was evil, or prohibited. In fact, we commonly have beer or wine at our meals, and in Italy, wine is often used for Communion, and not grape juice.

However, from what I recall, the American Assemblies of God is very much against all alcohol.

 

[just_came_back]

a lot of these pentecostal religions in America were started by people in the South early 1900s where alcohol was frowned upon. I don’t know if Reconstruction started the angst, conservative attitudes because most southerners before the Civil War were Episcopalian, Methodist, or Presbyterian. Baptist were scattered and Catholicism only started in South Carolina, OFFICIALLY, in 1820 when the Diocese of Charleston was formed.

 

[arabic_catholic]

Atheism is in the rise in Brazil , most of the people who are atheist and ex christian in Brazil were the son and daughters of Pentecostals who left the Catholic church . ( you can read more about this in John L. Allen Jr. book ‘’ the Future Church ‘’ )

 

[just_came_back]

While anything is possible, I find it highly unlikely that a Pentecostal pastor would suggest that his congregants should drink. He may (if more liberal) suggest that drinking alcohol in moderation is not wrong, but I doubt he’d endorse it. It is still a strong taboo, but there are individual Pentecostals who will drink (though they usually don’t advertise it). This is similar to the attitude toward smoking; however, in my experience it is not looked down on as much as drinking is. There are members of my church who are known to smoke cigarettes, and it doesn’t really matter. However, if a minister is seen smoking a cigarette then some people will question the legitimacy of his call. I think at its core is a deeply held belief in self control and that we should be captive to Christ, not substances. And of course there are historical reasons. I think many of the early Pentecostals would have supported the temperance movement.

You have to look at this historically, not in a vacuum. It’s not like the first Pentecostals were Catholics. They weren’t. They weren’t even reacting against the Catholic Church. The first Pentecostals were essentially Methodists who advocated holiness of life and a more experiential side of Christianity. They emerged out of a Protestant revivalistic milieu that felt that God was on the verge of intervening in history to revive the church and to restore the spiritual gifts and apostolic power of the early church so that in the last days God would return for a glorious church without spot or blemish. They were adamant that they were not forming new denominations, only coming out of spiritually dead ones. Despite such sentiments, new controversies and disruptions necessitated the formalizing of structures. And the attacks of non-Pentecostal holiness Christians necessitated the articulation of a distinctive Pentecostal theology.

But this is what has always IRKED me about pentecostals and I grew up in a pente church. There has always been this arrogance that just because they manifested certains gifts of the spirit and other churches didn’t practice them that “those people” weren’t christians and trust me, I heard it NUMEROUS times from pastors in the pulpit growing up.

I’d say pentecostals attitude is what led me out of that movement more than anything.

 

[just_came_back]

Atheism is in the rise in Brazil , most of the people who are atheist and ex christian in Brazil were the son and daughters of Pentecostals who left the Catholic church . ( you can read more about this in John L. Allen Jr. book ‘’ the Future Church ‘’ )

not good. Atheism sadly is on the rise. Now is the time for all in the church to batten down the hatches and fight. protestants, it’s time to get on board.

 

[ltwin]

But this is what has always IRKED me about pentecostals and I grew up in a pente church. There has always been this arrogance that just because they manifested certains gifts of the spirit and other churches didn’t practice them that “those people” weren’t christians and trust me, I heard it NUMEROUS times from pastors in the pulpit growing up.

I’d say pentecostals attitude is what led me out of that movement more than anything.

Well, if your pastors were saying sweeping statements like “anyone who is not Pentecostal is not a Christian” then I would leave those churches too. Attributing spiritual deadness to the established denominations was not an act of arrogance on the part of Pentecostals. It was a recognition of the facts that formerly spiritually powerful denominations like the Methodists that stressed evangelism and holiness of life had grown to become “mainline churches” that identified with the values and interests of the societal elites. Anyone can look at the theological stagnation and membership implosion of mainline Protestantism in the United States and see that Pentecostals in some sense were justified in getting out while they still could.

 

[just_came_back]

Well, if your pastors were saying sweeping statements like “anyone who is not Pentecostal is not a Christian” then I would leave those churches too. Attributing spiritual deadness to the established denominations was not an act of arrogance on the part of Pentecostals. It was a recognition of the facts that formerly spiritually powerful denominations like the Methodists that stressed evangelism and holiness of life had grown to become “mainline churches” that identified with the values and interests of the societal elites. Anyone can look at the theological stagnation and membership implosion of mainline Protestantism in the United States and see that Pentecostals in some sense were justified in getting out while they still could.

splitting apples/oranges IMO. I could go to a Methodist service, I’m not but I could, and still find biblical applications being presented from their pulpit. Not in every thing would I agree with, but the fact that they are a mainline group doesn’t make them not spiritual in some areas, not all. This stressing Evangelical call to “holiness”, and yes, I know what scripture says, TO ME, has brought about people actually leaving church and giving up on God forever. I cannot begin to think of certain people and situations, again from my pentecostal upbringing, who raised their children to live such “holy standards” and have it backfire on them. I’m talking no tv, no radio, no movies, nose buried in a KJV 24/7.

These kids, 1st chance at freedom, and I’m not endorsing worldly living either, I just know how the fallen nature is, took it and RAN WITH IT. Some to drugs, some to inappropriate relationships, etc. I have talked to adults over the years that left holiness groups because a sin caused them to be ostracized and they just gave up all together. Thank God some of those folks came back to God. Others I knew didn’t and unfortunately are no longer with us.

This is what happens, again tough love here, when a body of believers forms a group from their own personal interpretation of scripture and again you see I keep going back to where this all starts from. It’s been this way since the 1500s. God ordained a church with a governing body passed down from Peter. Could you imagine the one body come together as it pertained to evangelism? WOW! I’ve heard “prophecy preachers” bemoan for decades about a one world church. Uh…didn’t Christ himself actually pray for that when he was in Gethsemane?! Yes, he did.

Again, welcome and peace.

 

[bobhickman]

I go to st. johns catholic church, but, I own a church, and its pentecostal. since I know everybody wants to die saved, it doesnt matter what religion you are, or. I offered last week to donate upon my death my little pentecostal church to the catholic church, but, I want to to be something catholic. that will be hard.

 

[ltwin]

I go to st. johns catholic church, but, I own a church, and its pentecostal. since I know everybody wants to die saved, it doesnt matter what religion you are, or. I offered last week to donate upon my death my little pentecostal church to the catholic church, but, I want to to be something catholic. that will be hard.

You own a Pentecostal church??? Do you mean that you own a building that is rented by a Pentecostal church?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I go to st. johns catholic church, but, I own a church, and its pentecostal. since I know everybody wants to die saved, it doesnt matter what religion you are, or. I offered last week to donate upon my death my little pentecostal church to the catholic church, but, I want to to be something catholic. that will be hard.

Spider sense tingling

Even if it is the Big Spaghetti Monster?

 

[ltwin]

splitting apples/oranges IMO. I could go to a Methodist service, I’m not but I could, and still find biblical applications being presented from their pulpit. Not in every thing would I agree with, but the fact that they are a mainline group doesn’t make them not spiritual in some areas, not all. This stressing Evangelical call to “holiness”, and yes, I know what scripture says, TO ME, has brought about people actually leaving church and giving up on God forever. I cannot begin to think of certain people and situations, again from my pentecostal upbringing, who raised their children to live such “holy standards” and have it backfire on them. I’m talking no tv, no radio, no movies, nose buried in a KJV 24/7.

These kids, 1st chance at freedom, and I’m not endorsing worldly living either, I just know how the fallen nature is, took it and RAN WITH IT. Some to drugs, some to inappropriate relationships, etc. I have talked to adults over the years that left holiness groups because a sin caused them to be ostracized and they just gave up all together. Thank God some of those folks came back to God. Others I knew didn’t and unfortunately are no longer with us.

This is what happens, again tough love here, when a body of believers forms a group from their own personal interpretation of scripture and again you see I keep going back to where this all starts from. It’s been this way since the 1500s. God ordained a church with a governing body passed down from Peter. Could you imagine the one body come together as it pertained to evangelism? WOW! I’ve heard “prophecy preachers” bemoan for decades about a one world church. Uh…didn’t Christ himself actually pray for that when he was in Gethsemane?! Yes, he did.

Again, welcome and peace.

People don’t bemoan the true unity of Christ’s Church. What they bemoan is the push for organizational unity before doctrinal unity is established, which some ecumenical activists pursue. We can love and fellowship with other Christians. We can work together as far as our beliefs allow. But unless by the power of the Holy Spirit Christians can truly come together in one mind and one accord then we can’t ever truly be reunited organizationally. Doctrinal/confessional unity must come before organizational unity. If we merely agree to agree on nothing and at the same time come together in one church then we’ve simply opened the door to an anything goes mentality. That is the door way to heresy. While in my opinion some theological questions can be left up to individual conscience in the light of God’s word, but there are may other things that there just has to be basic agreement on.

 

[PeterJohn]

Doctrinal/confessional unity must come before organizational unity. If we merely agree to agree on nothing and at the same time come together in one church then we’ve simply opened the door to an anything goes mentality. That is the door way to heresy. While in my opinion some theological questions can be left up to individual conscience in the light of God’s word, but there are may other things that there just has to be basic agreement on.

I agree. You’ve discovered part of the catholic position. The rest of our position is as follows:

-We cannot change our doctorines, we are slaves to truth, not masters of it.

-We cannot change our doctorines, because they were passed down to us from the apostles and those left in charge by the apostles.

-We did not schism from the Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists or Pentecostals, they are in schism from us.

Which leaves us no place to go but where we are now. Thus we must welcome you back into our midst.

 

[just_came_back]

I agree. You’ve discovered part of the catholic position. The rest of our position is as follows:

-We cannot change our doctorines, we are slaves to truth, not masters of it.

-We cannot change our doctorines, because they were passed down to us from the apostles and those left in charge by the apostles.

-We did not schism from the Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists or Pentecostals, they are in schism from us.

Which leaves us no place to go but where we are now. Thus we must welcome you back into our midst.

AND LET THE CHURCH SAY AMEN!!!

 

[ChristianYouth]

I do believe in the Holy Spirit and know that the Holy Spirit can do many things, but I am unsure if the Pentecostals truly receive those gifts. Of course, that could lead to lengthy thrological arguments over whose religious denomination is correct, so I digress.

As Catholics, I understand that we do not have a high-energy, “filled with the Holy Spirit” service, but I think all the jumping around, hollering, clapping, etc. is a bit irreverent, but that is just my own opinion. I’m still trying to get over seeing “Jesus Camp”. That was some strange (to me, at least) Pentecostalism. I’ll stay with the Catholic Church, thank you.

Not just pentecostals have these gifts and not all off them anyone who believes in God and Jesus as our saviour.

 

[PeterJohn]

Sadly, today my mother inlaw is getting rebaptized by her Pentecostal church because even though they believe baptism is a symbolic event that one must be an adult to accept the symbolism of it. They obviously reject her infant baptism in the catholic church. Even though infant baptism has been a mainstream Christian practice since the apostolic age and there are many many proofs of this. Thusly this church’s teacher, their pastor, a student of rod parsley, must believe that all infant baptisms since the year 33AD are null and void. And doing so reject that Gods shepards, the students of the apostles, fell into serious error directly after the last apostle died. Intrinsic with that logic they must accept that contrary to Christs word, the gates of hell prevailed against the early church and still do to this day.

So, Im guessing that Pentecostals that follow rod parsley, see baptism as nessicary for salvation, and in rejecting infant baptism, are saying most Catholics and orthodox that we’re born into the faith, are hell bound.

 

[just_came_back]

Sadly, today my mother inlaw is getting rebaptized by her Pentecostal church because even though they believe baptism is a symbolic event that one must be an adult to accept the symbolism of it. They obviously reject her infant baptism in the catholic church. Even though infant baptism has been a mainstream Christian practice since the apostolic age and there are many many proofs of this. Thusly this church’s teacher, their pastor, a student of rod parsley, must believe that all infant baptisms since the year 33AD are null and void. And doing so reject that Gods shepards, the students of the apostles, fell into serious error directly after the last apostle died. Intrinsic with that logic they must accept that contrary to Christs word, the gates of hell prevailed against the early church and still do to this day.

So, Im guessing that Pentecostals that follow rod parsley, see baptism as nessicary for salvation, and in rejecting infant baptism, are saying most Catholics and orthodox that we’re born into the faith, are hell bound.

Who cares what they think? They can search scripture til the moon turns blue and their is no biblical “age of accountability”. If Jeremiah can declare that in sin was he conceived, then I don’t get why they can’t. Hope your family can cope with this.

 

[4Squarebaby]

Null and void is the wrong choice of words since the baptism itself is not seen as essential for salvation but as following an example as told in the Bible.

 

[just_came_back]

Null and void is the wrong choice of words since the baptism itself is not seen as essential for salvation but as following an example as told in the Bible.

Everything Christ did was an example to his followers i.e. Baptism as well.

I don’t recall JC walking the aisles to the altar call. John baptized for what? YES, the forgiveness of sins.

 

[PeterJohn]

Null and void is the wrong choice of words since the baptism itself is not seen as essential for salvation but as following an example as told in the Bible.

Pentecostals don’t see baptism as nessicary for salvation?

 

[just_came_back]

Pentecostals don’t see baptism as nessicary for salvation?

They don’t. I was raised in a pentecostal church. It’s all about the altar call to them. An idea that Christianity never even heard about until George Finney came along in the 1800s.