The rise of the Pentecostals

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ltwin said:
Whoa. So you don’t think I’m a Christian? That’s funny I’m in complete agreement with the Nicene Creed:

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

Agree

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

Agree

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

Agree

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Agree

How do we Pentecostals not fit in with the “definition” of Christianity?
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  1. You don’t believe one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins? You guys believe in altar call salvation which was never heard of until one Charles Finney thought up something known as the “anxious seat”.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Grandison_Finney
 
ltwin said:
Whoa. So you don’t think I’m a Christian? That’s funny I’m in complete agreement with the Nicene Creed:

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

Agree

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

Agree

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

Agree

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Agree

How do we Pentecostals not fit in with the “definition” of Christianity?
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That’s funny, you accept the filioque but deny Papal primacy? Something doesn’t sound right there…

Moreover, perhaps you do, but I know quite a few Pentecostals that do not, and the AofG refuses to accept the creed as doctrine; indeed it has its own creed that is openly at odds with the doctrines of the early councils.
 
just_came_back said:
  1. You don’t believe one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins? You guys believe in altar call salvation which was never heard of until one Charles Finney thought up something known as the “anxious seat”.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Grandison_Finney
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We do believe in one baptism. And the Bible clearly says “Repent and be baptized” for the remission of sins. The important point is that we must first “repent”, which is isn’t a problem for us since we practice believer’s baptism. We do believe in conversion experiences, but the Nicene Creed doesn’t condemn conversion experiences . . .
FrancisB said:
That’s funny, you accept the filioque but deny Papal primacy? Something doesn’t sound right there…
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If my Orthodox brethren are offended by it, I’m fine leaving it out. Pentecostalism inherited the doctrines Western Christianity, and I actually think the filioque is sound and Biblical.
FrancisB said:
Moreover, perhaps you do, but I know quite a few Pentecostals that do not, and the AofG refuses to accept the creed as doctrine; indeed it has its own creed that is openly at odds with the doctrines of the early councils.
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Pentecostals do not recite the creed every Sunday. They don’t refer to the ancient much, but they recognize them as useful summaries of orthodox Christian teachings. I know the Pentecostal Holiness Church actually enshrines the Apostle’s Creed within its doctrinal beliefs. We’re not opposed to the ancient creeds.

How is the Statement of Fundamental Truths at odds with the early councils? It was written precisely to protect the doctrine of the Trinity from Oneness Pentecostals.
just_came_back said:
Pentecostals believe in the rapture which was NEVER heard of in Christian history until around 1830.

scripturecatholic.com/second_coming.html
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News flash, we’re not the only ones. I didn’t realize a belief in the rapture placed you in the category of Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons . . .
 
It is completely possible to be a Pentecostal Catholic without being “slain in the spirit”, becoming very emotional, shouting, waving ones hands in the air, or rolling on the floor.

Those are the points of Protestant Pentecostalism I find disconcerting, and they are uneeded.
 
ltwin said:
We do believe in one baptism. And the Bible clearly says “Repent and be baptized” for the remission of sins. The important point is that we must first “repent”, which is isn’t a problem for us since we practice believer’s baptism. We do believe in conversion experiences, but the Nicene Creed doesn’t condemn conversion experiences . . .
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Then explain why there is any need to differentiate between the “baptism of water” and that of the Holy Spirit. That clearly suggests two baptisms, not one.
If my Orthodox brethren are offended by it, I’m fine leaving it out. Pentecostalism inherited the doctrines Western Christianity, and I actually think the filioque is sound and Biblical.
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My point is much deeper than whether or not it is Biblical or what the Orthodox want, but clearly your view of the church is so different from ours that the point is lost.
Pentecostals do not recite the creed every Sunday. They don’t refer to the ancient much, but they recognize them as useful summaries of orthodox Christian teachings. I know the Pentecostal Holiness Church actually enshrines the Apostle’s Creed within its doctrinal beliefs. We’re not opposed to the ancient creeds.
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How is the Statement of Fundamental Truths at odds with the early councils? It was written precisely to protect the doctrine of the Trinity from Oneness Pentecostals.
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A few issues from the Official Creed of United Pentecostal Church International:

“Jesus on His Father’s side was divine, on His mother’s side, human; Thus, He was known as the Son of God and also the son of man, or the God-man.” While not heresy, this leaves the distinct impression that Jesus is a demi-god.

“The terms “baptize with the Holy Ghost and fire,” “filled with the Holy Spirit,” and the “gift of the Holy Ghost” are synonymous terms used interchangeably in the Bible.” Clearly this is not the same as baptism of water, which as I mentioned above is a dissent from the creed.

“The basic and fundamental doctrine of this organization shall be the Bible standard of full salvation, which is repentance, baptism in water by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the initial sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.” This implies that those that do not speak in tongues are not baptised, and therefore not forgiven their sins. Are we to believe that those that do not speak in tongues are damned?

“Thus was instituted the use of literal bread and the fruit of the vine, which are partaken of literally, as emblems of His broken body and shed blood. There is also a spiritual significance and blessing in partaking of the sacrament.” This clearly denies the True Presence, which was upheld by the councils and is accepted by the mainstream churches in some way or another. Indeed, so central is the idea of True Presence that I am tempted to reject any group that denies it as not being real Christians.

“A Christian, to keep saved, must walk with God and keep himself in the love of God (Jude 21) and in the grace of God. The word “grace” means “favor.” When a person transgresses and sins against God, he loses his favor. If he continues to commit sin and does not repent, he will eventually be lost and cast into the lake of fire. (Read John 15:2, 6; 2 Peter 2:20-21). Jude speaks of the backsliders of his day, and their reward. (Also, read Hebrews 6:4-6).” Despite the Biblical references here, they are not quotes, and they are clearly not in agreement with the Apostolic faith, which has been preserved in the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches.

Is there a different creedal statement that you would like me to pick apart?
News flash, we’re not the only ones. I didn’t realize a belief in the rapture placed you in the category of Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons . . .
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What do you have against the Jeh----'s Witnesses and the Mormons? That might be the better question. I never implied that they were evil; they just aren’t Christian. It’s not just the Trinity; it’s the whole of the Apostolic faith as defined by the councils. That’s what Christianity is.
 
FrancisB said:
Then explain why there is any need to differentiate between the “baptism of water” and that of the Holy Spirit. That clearly suggests two baptisms, not one.

My point is much deeper than whether or not it is Biblical or what the Orthodox want, but clearly your view of the church is so different from ours that the point is lost.

A few issues from the Official Creed of United Pentecostal Church International:

“Jesus on His Father’s side was divine, on His mother’s side, human; Thus, He was known as the Son of God and also the son of man, or the God-man.” While not heresy, this leaves the distinct impression that Jesus is a demi-god.

“The terms “baptize with the Holy Ghost and fire,” “filled with the Holy Spirit,” and the “gift of the Holy Ghost” are synonymous terms used interchangeably in the Bible.” Clearly this is not the same as baptism of water, which as I mentioned above is a dissent from the creed.

“The basic and fundamental doctrine of this organization shall be the Bible standard of full salvation, which is repentance, baptism in water by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the initial sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.” This implies that those that do not speak in tongues are not baptised, and therefore not forgiven their sins. Are we to believe that those that do not speak in tongues are damned?

“Thus was instituted the use of literal bread and the fruit of the vine, which are partaken of literally, as emblems of His broken body and shed blood. There is also a spiritual significance and blessing in partaking of the sacrament.” This clearly denies the True Presence, which was upheld by the councils and is accepted by the mainstream churches in some way or another. Indeed, so central is the idea of True Presence that I am tempted to reject any group that denies it as not being real Christians.

“A Christian, to keep saved, must walk with God and keep himself in the love of God (Jude 21) and in the grace of God. The word “grace” means “favor.” When a person transgresses and sins against God, he loses his favor. If he continues to commit sin and does not repent, he will eventually be lost and cast into the lake of fire. (Read John 15:2, 6; 2 Peter 2:20-21). Jude speaks of the backsliders of his day, and their reward. (Also, read Hebrews 6:4-6).” Despite the Biblical references here, they are not quotes, and they are clearly not in agreement with the Apostolic faith, which has been preserved in the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches.

Is there a different creedal statement that you would like me to pick apart?

What do you have against the Jeh----'s Witnesses and the Mormons? That might be the better question. I never implied that they were evil; they just aren’t Christian. It’s not just the Trinity; it’s the whole of the Apostolic faith as defined by the councils. That’s what Christianity is.
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I’m comming to Itwins defence. He is not a member of the United Pentecostal Church. He is an orthodox Christian, beleving in the Holy Trinity.

The United Pentecostals are not orthodox, they do not beleive in the Holy Trinity they believe in some ancient heresy that cannot recall the name of.

They also use the names “apostolic” (yes really) and Jesus Name churches.

They do believe that Jesus is the Trinity all by himself, and they baptise by submerrsion believers in “Jesus Name Aymin”.
 
andrewstx said:
I’m comming to Itwins defence. He is not a member of the United Pentecostal Church. He is an orthodox Christian, beleving in the Holy Trinity.

The United Pentecostals are not orthodox, they do not beleive in the Holy Trinity they believe in some ancient heresy that cannot recall the name of.

They also use the names “apostolic” (yes really) and Jesus Name churches.

They do believe that Jesus is the Trinity all by himself, and they baptise by submerrsion believers in “Jesus Name Aymin”.
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I know that the Antiochians are known for being the most accepting of the Orthodox in Orthodox circles, but surely there is more to being a (lower-case) orthodox Christian than accepting the Trinity. I used one Pentecostal creed because that was available. I’d be happy to use another if someone provides one. I’m sure that all of them would deny the True Presence, and I’m sure that as an Orthodox Christian you cannot accept that as being “orthodox”. And I say this out of all Christian charity. Some of my closest friends are Pentecostals and I spend quite a lot of time with the Antiochian Orthodox in my area.
 
FrancisB said:
Then explain why there is any need to differentiate between the “baptism of water” and that of the Holy Spirit. That clearly suggests two baptisms, not one.
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As I said, we have no problem affirming the creeds as long as they confirm to the word of God. There is only so much need to differentiate between the two terms as they are differentiated within Holy Scripture. But as far as the creed is concerned, we believe in one baptism in water commanded by Christ.
FrancisB said:
My point is much deeper than whether or not it is Biblical or what the Orthodox want, but clearly your view of the church is so different from ours that the point is lost.
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Apparently.
FrancisB said:
A few issues from the Official Creed of United Pentecostal Church International:

“Jesus on His Father’s side was divine, on His mother’s side, human; Thus, He was known as the Son of God and also the son of man, or the God-man.” While not heresy, this leaves the distinct impression that Jesus is a demi-god.
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I’m not a member of the UPCI, and I disagree with them on so many things its not really worth me commenting on their beliefs concerning Jesus’ humanity or divinity. They reject the Trinity and that’s all I need to know. Pentecostals certainly don’t see Jesus as a “demi-god”. He is fully God and fully man. He is the only begotten Son of God. He is equal in all glory and honor to the Father.
FrancisB said:
“The terms “baptize with the Holy Ghost and fire,” “filled with the Holy Spirit,” and the “gift of the Holy Ghost” are synonymous terms used interchangeably in the Bible.” Clearly this is not the same as baptism of water, which as I mentioned above is a dissent from the creed.
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You may define as a dissent from the creed. Pentecostals however see that there is a distinction in Holy Scripture between water baptism and Spirit baptism.
FrancisB said:
“The basic and fundamental doctrine of this organization shall be the Bible standard of full salvation, which is repentance, baptism in water by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the initial sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.” This implies that those that do not speak in tongues are not baptised, and therefore not forgiven their sins. Are we to believe that those that do not speak in tongues are damned?
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Well, according to the UPCI yes. According to the Assemblies of God, the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee), the Church of God in Christ, the Foursquare Church, the Pentecostal Holiness Church and the vast majority of all Pentecostals Christians the UPCI’s statement is an expression of heterdox doctrine.

I agree with the Assemblies of God’s articulation of salvation in their Statement of Fundamental Truths:
Man’s only hope of redemption is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ the Son of God.
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Conditions to Salvation
Salvation is received through repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ. By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, being justified by grace through faith, man becomes an heir of God, according to the hope of eternal life.
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The Evidence of Salvation
The inward evidence of salvation is the direct witness of the Spirit.
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The outward evidence to all men is a life of righteousness and true holiness. (Scripture references omitted)
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I’ll trust you’ll find no requirement to speak in tongues hidden in there. I also find the AG’s articulation of Spirit baptism as a very good summary of what Pentecostals have traditionally believed:
  1. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit
    All believers are entitled to and should ardently expect and earnestly seek the promise of the Father, the baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire, according to the command of our Lord Jesus Christ. This was the normal experience of all in the early Christian Church. With it comes the enduement of power for life and service, the bestowment of the gifts and their uses in the work of the ministry.
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This experience is distinct from and subsequent to the experience of the new birth.
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With the baptism in the Holy Spirit come such experiences as: an overflowing fullness of the Spirit, a deepened reverence for God, an intensified consecration to God and dedication to His work, and a more active love for Christ, for His Word and for the lost,
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  1. The Initial Physical Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit
    The baptism of believers in the Holy Spirit is witnessed by the initial physical sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit of God gives them utterance.
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The speaking in tongues in this instance is the same in essence as the gift of tongues, but is different in purpose and use.(Scripture references omitted)
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The Spirit dwells in all Christians. Speaking in tongues is a physical evidence of Spirit baptism, which is an experience separate from regeneration. It is not a requirement for “salvation.” Think of it as a more experiential version of the Sacrament of Confirmation if that helps. Spirit baptism is for empowerment.
FrancisB said:
“Thus was instituted the use of literal bread and the fruit of the vine, which are partaken of literally, as emblems of His broken body and shed blood. There is also a spiritual significance and blessing in partaking of the sacrament.” This clearly denies the True Presence, which was upheld by the councils and is accepted by the mainstream churches in some way or another. Indeed, so central is the idea of True Presence that I am tempted to reject any group that denies it as not being real Christians.
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Ok then. You have a nice day to . . .
FrancisB said:
“A Christian, to keep saved, must walk with God and keep himself in the love of God (Jude 21) and in the grace of God. The word “grace” means “favor.” When a person transgresses and sins against God, he loses his favor. If he continues to commit sin and does not repent, he will eventually be lost and cast into the lake of fire. (Read John 15:2, 6; 2 Peter 2:20-21). Jude speaks of the backsliders of his day, and their reward. (Also, read Hebrews 6:4-6).” Despite the Biblical references here, they are not quotes, and they are clearly not in agreement with the Apostolic faith, which has been preserved in the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches.
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I actually have some concerns about the way this is phrased as well. But I guess you know by now I’m no fan of the UPCI.
FrancisB said:
Is there a different creedal statement that you would like me to pick apart?
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Not really. But I’ve quoted from one above. Have fun if that’s what you’re into.
FrancisB said:
What do you have against the Jeh----'s Witnesses and the Mormons? That might be the better question. I never implied that they were evil; they just aren’t Christian. It’s not just the Trinity; it’s the whole of the Apostolic faith as defined by the councils. That’s what Christianity is.
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Both deny fundamental Christian doctrines. I only mentioned them because you placed all Pentecostals in that category, but I’m assuming that according to your reasoning all Evangelical Protestants and even many Mainline Protestants would not be considered “Christian” according to your definition. I understand where you’re coming from, and I’m glad to know that you don’t represent the sentiments of most Catholics I’ve talked to.
 
God blesses all of us. 🙂 One of the reason it is getting so popular in the New World is because it attracts a lot of the Youth. Where I live, Santa Ana, CA, their are a lot of missled youth using drugs, joining gangs, and just plain sinning. Kids/Teens tend to need help from divorcings of parents, abuse, etc. The local Pentecostal church here tells the youth to come and visit. I’ve seen many beautifully changed people. We also believe in the spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues. Their are TWO main group of Pentecostals. Pentecostals or Trinitian Pentecostals and Onessense Pentecostals which don’t believe in the trinity.
 
Itwin,

May the Grace of God the Father, the Peace of God the Son and the Guidance of the Holy Spirit be with you.

Just like some Pentecostals don’t represent all Pentecostals, some Catholics don’t represent all Catholics.

I would like to apologize for some of my fellow Catholics and their lack of charity and abundance of ignorance in their dialogue with you.

God Bless You,

Jose
 
Point one, this thread is about Pentecostals of all stripes; the fact that some of them are non-Trinitarians does not undermine my point, rather it only helps to support it.
ltwin said:
Conditions to Salvation
Salvation is received through repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ. By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, being justified by grace through faith, man becomes an heir of God, according to the hope of eternal life.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
Itwin,

May the Grace of God the Father, the Peace of God the Son and the Guidance of the Holy Spirit be with you.

Just like some Pentecostals don’t represent all Pentecostals, some Catholics don’t represent all Catholics.

I would like to apologize for some of my fellow Catholics and their lack of charity and abundance of ignorance in their dialogue with you.

God Bless You,

Jose
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I certainly hope that that has not been directed at me. Precision of language is neither a lack of charity nor an abundance of ignorance. The Mormons say that Jesus is God, read the Bible, and say that they are Christians. Is it uncharitable to inform them that they are not? The Moslems are also not Christians, but they believe Jesus was a great prophet. Not being Christian doesn’t mean that they are bad people. The early Church defined what Christianity was. We can pretend that we have no differences, but that doesn’t make it so. And accepting radical Protestantism as an acceptable form of Christianity makes it harder for us to have a meaningful dialogue with the other Christian Churches (i.e. the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Church).
 
With no offense to our pentecostal brother, and at least he’s not a oneness pentecostal. They are…well, nuff said.

We defend our faith with the utmost militance because we believe in it so. The Bible itself is not meant to please, it is meant as a two-edged sword, and we base every belief on that. We are not sorry if it offends, because to be offended at the Church is the same as being offended by Jesus.

We will defend and we will share our beliefs in the hopes that the Holy Spirit leads all men to the fullness of truth. Somehow Catholics are not supposed to defend what we believe so that we can all be nice and play fairly. No. This is eternal. This is salvation and THIS is God.

We want the world to know it! Again, no hard feelings, but we will defend what is ours through the majestic calling of Jesus Christ. 👍
 
Itwin—

You do a nice job of explaining Pentecostal beliefs and practices in a clear and charitable way.
 
FrancisB said:
Point one, this thread is about Pentecostals of all stripes; the fact that some of them are non-Trinitarians does not undermine my point, rather it only helps to support it.
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How so? Like the presence of pedophile priests in the Catholic Church somehow supports the points made by anti-Catholics? Is that what you mean?
FrancisB said:
Point two, there is no proof of salvation until we die, as we are capable of falling away from God up to that point. This is typical extreme Protestant doctrine, but it is in direct defiance of the Apostolic faith.
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For someone who takes it upon himself to determine what groups are and are not Christian, your ignorance of Pentecostalism is striking. You will find that Pentecostals are in agreement with Catholic teaching on many points of soteriology, such as the possibility of falling away.
FrancisB said:
There is no Apostolic equivalent to these practices. This sounds like an extreme form of confirmation/Chrismation, but it clearly is not the same. Again, this is a second form of baptism, which clearly contradicts the creed, which acknowledges only one.
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According to Catholicism maybe. Nevertheless, to compare us to Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons because we believe in subsequent receptions of the Spirit after initial conversion is absolutely ridiculous.
FrancisB said:
What I’m saying may not represent the sentiments of most Catholics, but that does not mean that it is not in line with what our Church believes. The pope himself has reiterated that Protestants do not have “churches” in the proper sense, and placed as outside of Christianity many groups that consider themselves Christian, including the non-Trinitarians, some of whom are Pentecostals. Furthermore, you are free to believe what you want to believe, but the councils of the early church defined what Christians believe. That is why they were held. If you do not believe what they taught, then you are not a Christian. I’m not saying that you’re a bad person. I’m just calling a spade a spade, and along those lines not a spade not a spade.
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I was under the impression that the Catholic Church accepted all who have been baptized with a Trinitarian formula as Christians, whether or not they belong to a Church possessing Apostolic Succession.
 
FrancisB said:
I certainly hope that that has not been directed at me. Precision of language is neither a lack of charity nor an abundance of ignorance. The Mormons say that Jesus is God, read the Bible, and say that they are Christians. Is it uncharitable to inform them that they are not? The Moslems are also not Christians, but they believe Jesus was a great prophet. Not being Christian doesn’t mean that they are bad people. The early Church defined what Christianity was. We can pretend that we have no differences, but that doesn’t make it so. And accepting radical Protestantism as an acceptable form of Christianity makes it harder for us to have a meaningful dialogue with the other Christian Churches (i.e. the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Church).
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You do realize that the Catholic Church is already in dialogue with Pentecostal Christians? See the Joint International Commission for Catholic–Pentecostal Dialogue at the Vatican Website. See also DIALOGUE WITH PENTECOSTALS at ewtn.com.
 
ltwin said:
How so? Like the presence of pedophile priests in the Catholic Church somehow supports the points made by anti-Catholics? Is that what you mean?

For someone who takes it upon himself to determine what groups are and are not Christian, your ignorance of Pentecostalism is striking. You will find that Pentecostals are in agreement with Catholic teaching on many points of soteriology, such as the possibility of falling away.

According to Catholicism maybe. Nevertheless, to compare us to Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons because we believe in subsequent receptions of the Spirit after initial conversion is absolutely ridiculous.

I was under the impression that the Catholic Church accepted all who have been baptized with a Trinitarian formula as Christians, whether or not they belong to a Church possessing Apostolic Succession.
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Your baptism is indeed valid. Just so you know, I was baptized in a pentecostal church at the age of 15. Now that you have picked yourself up off the floor-just kidding:thumbsup:-I converted to RCC in 1999. We are glad to have you here, but also know our love is tough. That said, welcome.
 
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