The Role of Women in Islam

[discipleofJesus]

r.gonzales:

as for the stuff about sodomy, amusing how you’d turn to the shee’ah, a sect who allows sodomy despite the clear verse in the Quran regarding its forbiddance. even if what the information they convey is accurate—which i doubt—both imaam maalik and imaam ash-shaafi’ee said that if they say something contrary to what’s found in Allah’s book and in prophet muhammad’s sunnah, that their statements are to be rejected.

Imam Shafi said (as quoted in post #112)

“On sodomy with women, Imam Sha’afi no Sahih narration’s have reached us from Rasulullah (s) as to whether it is halaal or haraam and logic suggests that this halaal”. (bold and underline emphasis mine)

Imam Shafi, obviously believed that the Quran doesn’t say whether it is halal or haram and that “no Sahih narration’s have reached us from Rasulullah (s) as to whether it is halaal or haraam and logic suggests that this halaal”

So why would I believe you over Imam Shafi and Imam Malik (see post #112), founders of two of the four Schools of Sunni Jurisprudence?

Also, many (or maybe all) Sunni Muslims who follow the Shafi`i and Maliki Schools of Jurisprudence would, I assume, follow what Imam Shafi and Imam Malik said about this subject.

Can you show me a Sahih Hadith or more or Quranic verse/s that make it clear that sodomy with women is haram?

How did the founders of two of the four Schools of Sunni Jurisprudence miss these?

 

[r.gonzales]

discipleofJesus:

Within Sunni Islam, there are four Schools of Jurisprudence, Maliki, Shafi`i, Hanafi and Hanbali founded by four Imams. These Imams are Imam Malik, Imam Shafi, Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal.

actually, there are a lot more than four. the four you listed are just the major schools of jurisprudential opinion.

discipleofJesus:

Read the following quotes excerpted from answering-ansar.org

as i mentioned above answering-ansar is a shee’ah site. the shee’ah allow sodomy and are also known liars who hold it as part of their religion to lie to others. this case is no exception.

just checking the first reference they provide from al-jaami’ at-tirmidhee (aka sunan at-tirmidhee) i can see they’ve already lied about the information it contains. the hadeeth they quote correctly translated reads:

from ibn 'abbaas, he said: umar came to Allah’s messenger (s) and said, “o Allah’s messenger! i am destoyed!” he (the prophet) said, “and what destoyed you?” he said, “i sent my baggage tonight.” he (ibn 'abbaas) said, “so Allah’s messenger did not reply to him with anything.” he (ibn 'abbaas) said, “then this verse was revealed to Allah’s messenger, ‘your women are a tith for you, so come to your tilth however you wish.’(2:223) approach from the front and from the back (i.e., what people today refer to as “doggy style”), and fear the backside (i.e., sodomy) and the menses.”

and this is pretty much how they lie by translating “approach from behind”—which refers to the way you approach the woman to have sexual vaginal intercourse—as being “sodomy” or “anal sex”, which is incorrect.

 

[Booklover]

r.gonzales:

nice bit of selective quoting there. if you notice, my statement there is with specific regard to the issue of abrogation. abrogation is a ruling that can only be made by Allah and His messenger, thus, if anyone wants to claim that a particular verse or hadeeth is abrogated, they need to bring evidence from the Quran and the authentic hadeeths to prove that.

How very convenient for your prophet! He could change anything he liked and claim that “God” had told him to do so! Do you find that logical at all? Do you realize how ridiculous the whole thing is? You claim that the Trinity defies logic and you’re actualy taken in by this absurdity?

 

[r.gonzales]

Booklover:

How very convenient for your prophet! He could change anything he liked and claim that “God” had told him to do so! Do you find that logical at all? Do you realize how ridiculous the whole thing is? You claim that the Trinity defies logic and you’re actualy taken in by this absurdity?

there’s nothing absurd about it. your posts are kind of amusing in how you more often than not fail to understand what’s being said, then comment with sarcasm and emotionally charged statements.

the ruling concerning a verse’s abrogation comes from Allah and His messenger. prophet muhammad was the one conveying the revelation as it came, thus, he knows which verses Allah has abrogated and which ones are still applicable. he is the one that conveys this information to us. Allah is the one doing the abrogating. sometimes this information comes as Quranic revelation (hence my saying that the ruling for abrogation comes from Allah) and sometimes it comes via prophetic hadeeths as information revealed to prophet muhammad but not as Quranic revelation (hence my saying that the ruling for abrogation also comes from Allah’s messenger).

perhaps you should stop and think about what you’re reading and what it actually means before replying?

 

[discipleofJesus]

r.gonzales:

just checking the first reference they provide from al-jaami’ at-tirmidhee (aka sunan at-tirmidhee) i can see they’ve already lied about the information it contains. the hadeeth they quote correctly translated reads…

what about the references they actually quote:

Ahkam al Qur’an Volume 1 page 352 Ayat Hars

Quoting verbatim from Ahkam al Qur’an:

**“Sahil asked Imam Malik 'is sodomy with women permissible? Imam Malik replied 'I just did this act and have just washed by sexual organs”. **

Tafseer Durre Manthur Volume 1 page 266, Ayat Hars

We read in Tafseer Durre Manthur:

"On sodomy with women, Imam Sha’afi no Sahih narration’s have reached us from Rasulullah (s) as to whether it is halaal or haraam and logic suggests that this halaal".

are they translated correctly?

 

[r.gonzales]

discipleofJesus:

what about the references they actually quote

the hadeeth i posted from at-tirmdhee is one of the references they actually quoted.

discipleofJesus:

are they translated correctly?

and here i thought you knew arabic…

 

[discipleofJesus]

r.gonzales,

why don’t you answer my questions about Muhammad hitting his wife, Aisha?

 

[discipleofJesus]

r.gonzales:

and here i thought you knew arabic…

Do i have the references in Arabic to check if they are translated properly?

And just to be clear, i didn’t say i know how to read Arabic. I said i know Arabic. And I do, I know how to speak Arabic quite fluently.

 

[discipleofJesus]

r.gonzales:

the hadeeth i posted from at-tirmdhee is one of the references they actually quoted.

i mean the references that are quoted on the site that i quoted here.

not the other quotes on the site.

 

[Booklover]

r.gonzales:

there’s nothing absurd about it. your posts are kind of amusing in how you more often than not fail to understand what’s being said, then comment with sarcasm and emotionally charged statements.

the ruling concerning a verse’s abrogation comes from Allah and His messenger. prophet muhammad was the one conveying the revelation as it came, thus, he knows which verses Allah has abrogated and which ones are still applicable. he is the one that conveys this information to us. Allah is the one doing the abrogating. sometimes this information comes as Quranic revelation (hence my saying that the ruling for abrogation comes from Allah) and sometimes it comes via prophetic hadeeths as information revealed to prophet muhammad but not as Quranic revelation (hence my saying that the ruling for abrogation also comes from Allah’s messenger).

perhaps you should stop and think about what you’re reading and what it actually means before replying?

What you think about me, my posts or whether I understand or not is completely irrelevant to me. What I find astonishing is that you accept everything Mohammed claimed blindly, whether it’s about abrogation, revelations or anything else! You don’t really have any real concrete proof that anything he ever said or claimed was the truth.

 

[StMarkEofE]

Booklover:

Women are considered inferior to men in Islam. If a woman does not resist rape, she is stoned as an adulterer, and if she does she is hanged! Read the story of Nazanin, the 17 year old who has been sentenced to be hanged for killing one of her attackers when she tried to defend herself and her younger niece.

faithfreedom.org/Announcement/601081013.htm

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Announcement/nazanin.jpgNazanin, 17, was sentenced to death by hanging for defending herself against three rapists.

Sounds fair–​

–​

If you are Muslim

 

[Ortho]

Cyber Knight:

Small number of people? they do it based on your Quran and hadith for gods sake!

Where does he Quran or haddith does it say a girl should be executed for defending herself against rape?

 

[Ortho]

Cyber Knight:

Yes and those prists were commited sin. It is againts the law and church. They should get detention or something. Child molestation by the priests have become very controversial in the Catholic church nowdays. How ever, I know you were just trying to explain but you just plain tu quoque here. You could probably open a new thread about Child molestation by Priest and see how it goes in the catholic’s point of view here. it would be wise I guess. Thank you!

I understand why Catholics hesitate to deal with the abusive priests. However, it’s fair to ask about them because the rationale used to defend the Church can reasonably be used to defend Islam.

One of the problems the Catholics face is that the Church is highly organized with a firm chain of command, while Islam is not. So, one can point to the actions of the successors of the apostles and ask if they were implementing Church policy. Since so many acted the same way, it is reasonable to ask if they are.

If they are not implementing Church teaching and policy, is it reasonable to say one court in rural Iran reflects all of Islam?

 

[Ortho]

Booklover:

How very convenient for your prophet! He could change anything he liked and claim that “God” had told him to do so! Do you find that logical at all? Do you realize how ridiculous the whole thing is? You claim that the Trinity defies logic and you’re actualy taken in by this absurdity?

Abrogation f scripture is an interesting topic. Do many Catholics say the New testament replaces the Old Testament and invalidates many of the instructions in the Old testament? Who decided that was the case? The Church?

Who decided that charging interest on loans was permitted when once it was not? Could that be called abrogation? Convenient?

 

[Faith101]

Booklover:

Bogus article?

is that the only thing you read in my post?

 

[Ortho]

Booklover:

What you think about me, my posts or whether I understand or not is completely irrelevant to me. What I find astonishing is that you accept everything Mohammed claimed blindly, whether it’s about abrogation, revelations or anything else! You don’t really have any real concrete proof that anything he ever said or claimed was the truth.

do catholics have real concrete proof that what the Church says is the truth. Remember, real concrete proof is a very high standard.

 

[r.gonzales]

discipleofJesus:

i mean the references that are quoted on the site that i quoted here.

your shee’ah source is full of lies and misinformation. tafseer al-qurtubee (a.k.a. jaami’ ahkaam al-Quran), for example. in the beginning of his explanation of the verse al-hirth (i.e., 2:223), al-qurtubee relates a few hadeeths, one being the narration from at-tirmidhee i provided the correct translation for above, and another narration where naafi’, the freed slave of abdullah bin umar, denies the lies being spread about him that he had been going around telling others that ibn umar passed a fatwaa saying that it was permissible to come to their women from their backsides. he’s quoted in the narration as saying, “they lied upon me!”.

the portions quoted from this book (jaami’ ahkaam al-Quran) that are found on that site are either presented in a manner contrary to the context found in the actual text of the book, or don’t exist at all (as in the case of the so-called “verbatim” quote concerning al-imam maalik’s reply to a question posed to him). al-qurtubee mentions some of the claims regarding the permissibility of sodomy with one’s wife that are attributed to certain scholars, then goes on to refute the claims, especially those attributed to maalik by bringing statements from maalik’s companions contrary to these claims and goes on to prove that entering a woman from her anus is forbidden.

discipleofJesus:

why don’t you answer my questions about Muhammad hitting his wife, Aisha?

convenient way of switching the focus. instead of fessing up and admitting that your sources are wrong and giving misinformation regarding islam, you move on to the next point of attack. and continue with on with your assertions and claims concerning islamic beliefs and imposing yourself as a qualified authority and source for the correct understanding of islamic texts.

just as i said above:

the very mindset i referred to in my comment to ortho’s post is clearly evident in your posts concerning islam. you think you know islam better and can present it more accurately than the muslims on this board and thus impose yourself as an authority over and above even what we muslims say—or even what we muslims convey from the scholars of islam themselves. you are the one people who are ignorant about islam must refer to since you are the “honest” and “truth-loving” christian who has “studied” islam and knows what it’s really all about, whereas we muslims are “liars”, followers of the “imposter” muhammad and his “satanic revelation”, “deceptively” trying to hide the “blemishes” of islam from other non-muslims on this site in order to dupe them.

and with each post you make presenting what you claim are the actual teachings of islam, imposing on others your interpretation of the texts you quote, or the misinformation found on your source sites, you continue to prove my above statement as true.

 

[discipleofJesus]

r.gonzales:

…you are the one people who are ignorant about islam must refer to since you…

I don’t understand these words, are you saying I am ignorant about Islam?

r.gonzales:

convenient way of switching the focus. instead of fessing up and admitting that your sources are wrong and giving misinformation regarding islam, you move on to the next point of attack. and continue with on with your assertions and claims concerning islamic beliefs and imposing yourself as a qualified authority and source for the correct understanding of islamic texts.

First of all, I asked my questions about Aisha (post #107, see also post #84 and post #95) before I even said anything about sodomy with women (my first post on the sodomy with women topic was #111)

Second of all, yes I am switching focus because I am trying to bring the focus back to my original proofs (post #47 and post #48) that Islam treats women badly. I was going back to the topic of Islam allowing husbands to hit their wives (since that was the last thing we were discussing before the sodomy with women topic). One of the reasons I am asking about Muhammad hitting his wife Aisha is because you claim “islam allows a husband to hit his wife as a last resort before divorce if she is displaying animosity and hostility, causing discord within the family”
Well I don’t see any of those things in the story of Muhammad hitting his wife Aisha.

By the way, you said “then added to this is the general forbiddance in islam for hitting the face” what is the source for this general forbiddance? Give me a quote with reference.

What is meant by hitting leaving “no effect”? Does that mean leaving no scar?

And again, even if we accept your explanation as representing true Islam (which I don’t) it is still wrong to hit your wife in any way! Even hitting them lightly is cruel, humiliating, degrading, mean and it physically and emotionally hurts them. This isn’t loving at all.

Third of all, the sodomy accusation wasn’t one of my proofs that Islam treats women badly. I think it was one of inJESUS’s proofs in post (#70)? inJESUS is suspended and cannot reply to what you are saying so I thought I would attempt to respond to you. I am not sure how accurate answering-ansar.org is, you are probably right, ansering-ansar.org may be full of lies, wrong and giving misinformation. I am not sure. But then again, your accusations against them might be full of lies, wrong and giving misinformation. I am not sure. I don’t really care too much about this topic (Islamic view of sodomy with women) so I don’t think I will continue with this topic, at least for now. InJESUS might want to continue with it if/when he/she comes back.

However, all my accusations against Islam on treating women badly in post #47 and post #48 still stand, which is the important thing here. So enough with your logical fallacies of Poisoning the Well, Composition, Appeal to Ridicule, Hasty Generalization, Red Herrings and Ad Hominems.

r.gonzales:

the very mindset i referred to in my comment to ortho’s post is clearly evident in your posts concerning islam. you think you know islam better and can present it more accurately than the muslims on this board and thus impose yourself as an authority over and above even what we muslims say—or even what we muslims convey from the scholars of islam themselves…

You have no idea what you are talking about. I didn’t impose myself as an authority on anything. I present evidence of what I believe is true and am open to correction. Mostly, if not always, my accusations are true and Muslims are unable to refute my evidence and what I said. I refute what I believe is wrong. I expose what I think is deceit. There is nothing wrong with that. For example, Faith101 stated

Faith101:

Prophet Mohamed peace be upon him never hit or even yelled at any of his wives.

In post #84 I refuted this claim by quoting a Hadith showing that this claim is wrong, Muhammad did hit his wife as narrated in the Hadith. Was Faith101 lying and being deceitful? Or was Faith101 ignorant of this and honestly mistaken? I’m not sure, unlike you I won’t hastily accuse people of lying and being deceitful without knowing for sure that they lied and were deceitful.

On this thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=92550&page=1 , I shattered the claim that Islam is a peaceful religion by quoting the Quran and the Hadith.

Your the one who imposes himself as an authority, even the absolute authority in anything and everything about Islam.

 

[discipleofJesus]

discipleofJesus:

Your the one who imposes himself as an authority, even the absolute authority in anything and everything about Islam.

i.e. You are the one imposing yourself as an authority, even the absolute authority in anything and everything about Islam.

 

[r.gonzales]

discipleofJesus:

I don’t understand these words, are you saying I am ignorant about Islam?

no, that is not what i’m saying in that quote. read it again. the words are clear.

discipleofJesus:

By the way, you said “then added to this is the general forbiddance in islam for hitting the face” what is the source for this general forbiddance? Give me a quote with reference.

prophet muhammad (s) said, “if one of you fought, then let him avoid the face.” saheeh al-bukhaaree #2559 & saheeh muslim #2612 with various different wordings, among them “then do not strike the face [with the hand].” and it should be noted that many the scholars of islamic jurisprudence hold that when prophet muhammad uses the phrase, “then let him…” it constitutes an order and must be adhered to.

discipleofJesus:

it is still wrong to hit your wife in any way! Even hitting them lightly is cruel, humiliating, degrading, mean and it physically and emotionally hurts them. This isn’t loving at all.

that is your personal opinion.

discipleofJesus:

I am not sure how accurate answering-ansar.org is, you are probably right, ansering-ansar.org may be full of lies, wrong and giving misinformation. I am not sure. But then again, your accusations against them might be full of lies, wrong and giving misinformation. I am not sure. I don’t really care too much about this topic (Islamic view of sodomy with women) so I don’t think I will continue with this topic, at least for now. InJESUS might want to continue with it if/when he/she comes back.

again, and here i thought you knew arabic. why don’t you go find the source books quoted (of which many are available in word format on the internet) and varify these things for yourself if you don’t believe me? you probably won’t because you’ve already got it set in your mind that you’re right, the muslims trying to defend their religion are wrong, are liars, are deceitful (and also perhaps because contrary to what you claim, you probably don’t really know arabic).

discipleofJesus:

You have no idea what you are talking about. I didn’t impose myself as an authority on anything. I present evidence of what I believe is true and am open to correction. Mostly, if not always, my accusations are true and Muslims are unable to refute my evidence and what I said. I refute what I believe is wrong. I expose what I think is deceit. There is nothing wrong with that.

oh, i know what i’m talking about perfectly well. and your assertion that you are open to correction couldn’t be further from the truth. how many times have you admitted that you are wrong? how many times have you accepted the statements and explanations of qualified scholars of islam concerning the misinformation and “evidences” you bring? none.

more evidence for this:

discipleofJesus:

even if we accept your explanation as representing true Islam (which I don’t)

you claim that you are open to correction, yet when a muslim tells you your understanding of his religion is wrong and quotes the scholars of his religion and the source books where the teachings of his religion are found, you reject what he says. why? because of what i mentioned earlier. you are the (self-imposed) authority of islamic teachings. you know what’s correct islamic belief and the muslim doesn’t. you are not open to correction. you are here to propagate your misinformation concerning islam, to impose your understanding as right and the muslims’ understanding as wrong. you are here to attack, vilify, degrade and debase islam and muslims. you are the authority of correct islamic beliefs, the muslims are just spreading lies to mislead others into thinking that islam is not the way you say it is.