The Role of Women in Islam

[Liberalsaved]

Cyber Knight:

OMG…Would you stop tu quoque?? Do you know what it means???

No doubt Catholic committed crimes (women issue) in the name of religion in the past. But I believe Christianity nowdays do not. People that treat women so low in the name of religion until now are Muslims and they do accordingly as per Quran and Hadith.

Please open another thread if you want to talk about how bad Christianity (Catholic) treat women. I’m sure catholics here will be pleased to discuss with you.

I’m not defending anything. I’m asking the members of this forum to see the balance, rather than always seeing things in terms of what your group does right and others do wrong.

 

[discipleofJesus]

Liberalsaved:

But you, also, are grouping these people,a s though all Muslims are the same.

When I say Islam I often mean what is in the Quran (which all Muslims accept) or the authoritive teachings/beliefs of the majority Muslim sect, which is the Sunni Muslim sect (who make up about 80% of the Muslim population). However, my statements, often, if not always, relate to the authoritive teachings/beliefs of the Shia Muslim sect (who make up the majority of the remaining 20% of the Muslim population) too and the authoritive teachings/beliefs of other Muslim sects too.

I think you simply need to take a step back and realize that evil and good are both everywhere.

No they aren’t. For example, everything God teaches in the Bible is good with no evil.

 

[George_Waters]

Liberalsaved:

Actually, one would think doing something in defiance of your teachings is worse than doing something in accordance with them.

Doing something in defiance of your teachings is worse than doing something in accordance with your teachings… to your teachings. However, certain things are fundamentally wrong. We can not fall into moral relativism, claiming something is all right because that is someone’s particular belief or because a man-made law says it is legal. Slavery and murder are wrong, yet slavery was practiced in the United States and abortion is still legal here. That does not make them right. They are wrong. The treatment of humans should not be subject to individual belief or to blatantly immoral laws.

I have read on this forum time and time again past events being used to justify current sins. There is no justification for committing sins against humanity. Mea culpa.

Yes, a Saudi Muslim will be different from a Malaysian Muslim, etc., etc., however Islam as a whole claims the moral high ground, but the treatment of women by large numbers of Muslims demonstrates they are not on the high ground, but shaky ground.

 

[Ortho]

George Waters:

You are most likely right Ortho. Good questions and a good even-handed response. I am curious why Muslims in general do not speak out against such things. I am aware that I have limited access to various media reports so it is possible I do not hear the outrage abuses such as this generates. If you can direct me to any such resource I would appreciate it.

There are two problems with the media in he Muslim countries that have oppresive governments. First, the media is not nearly as pervasive and advanced as in the west. Second, it is all controlled by the government, so there is nothing in the media that would indicate popular unrest.

Recently, however, blogs have been appearing which are critical of the government. I’ll list a few in a later post. Also, it might be interesting to simply read a Saudi newspaper, which is givernment controlled, but occasionally has opinions for reform. It’s Arab News. The view is slanted, the content censored, and the accuracy questionable. But it is a window most don’t see. The letters section and the section on Islam with Q & A are informative, too.
arabnews.com/

 

[Ortho]

Cyber Knight:

OMG…Would you stop tu quoque?? Do you know what it means???

No doubt Catholic committed crimes (women issue) in the name of religion in the past. But I believe Christianity nowdays do not. People that treat women so low in the name of religion until now are Muslims and they do accordingly as per Quran and Hadith.

Please open another thread if you want to talk about how bad Christianity (Catholic) treat women. I’m sure catholics here will be pleased to discuss with you.

Where does the Quran say women should be treated “low?” What Haddith says women should be treated “low?”

 

[Ortho]

George Waters:

Doing something in defiance of your teachings is worse than doing something in accordance with your teachings… to your teachings. However, certain things are fundamentally wrong. We can not fall into moral relativism, claiming something is all right because that is someone’s particular belief or because a man-made law says it is legal. Slavery and murder are wrong, yet slavery was practiced in the United States and abortion is still legal here. That does not make them right. They are wrong. The treatment of humans should not be subject to individual belief or to blatantly immoral laws.

I have read on this forum time and time again past events being used to justify current sins. There is no justification for committing sins against humanity. Mea culpa.

Yes, a Saudi Muslim will be different from a Malaysian Muslim, etc., etc., however Islam as a whole claims the moral high ground, but the treatment of women by large numbers of Muslims demonstrates they are not on the high ground, but shaky ground.

Observation demonstrates that some groups of Muslims are on high ground and some are on shaky ground. We can also observe that Women are treated worse by African Christians than by Western Christians. Culture rather than religion dictates the treatment of women.

It’s unfair to say Chriatianity treats women poorly based on African practices. That concentrates only on the negative and ignores the positive. It’s also unfair to say Islam treats women poorly based on Saudi customs.

Blaming Islam makes polemics easier, but is very inaccurate. The condemnations we see of Islam remind me of the ignorant condemnations of Catholicism by Jack Chick.

So what to do? Learn about the different cultures of the world.

 

[discipleofJesus]

BaconBot:

That is just simply not true. An dif you think it is, then you are kidding yourself. All the major religions have, and continue to treat women poorly over the years.

Oh really, is that right? It’s mind-boggling to read such comments, especially ones written with such confidence.

Here are some examples of Islam treating women badly (Yes Islam! Since it is what the Quran teaches and/or what Muhammad teaches and/or exemplifies)

Men are allowed to hit their wives

Husbands may hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives (note that that they only have to fear highandedness and they may hit them. In any case though, whether they are high handed or not it is wrong to hit your wife!)

[Quran] Sura 4:34
“…If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great.”

Muhammad consumated marriage with a nine year old girl (Aisha) when he was 54 years

Muhammad consumated marriage with a nine year old girl (Aisha) when he was 54 years old and thus not only commited this horrible act but set the precedent for future Muslims to be allowed to marry young girls (since according to Islam is a excellent/good exemplar)

[Quran] Sura 33:21
“Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.”

[Hadith] Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

[Hadith] Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

The Quran even permits men to men to marry prepubescent girls

[Quran] Sura 65:1,4
“O Prophet, when you (and the believers) divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting-period and count the waiting-period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden.”

Maududi interprets the plain meaning of verse 4 like this:
“Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl at this age but it is permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur’an has held as permissible.” (Maududi, vol. 5, p. 620, note 13, bold and underline emphasis added)
**
Slave-girls as sexual property in the Quran and Muslims can rape their slave-girls**

[Quran] Sura 23:5-6
“[Most certainly true believers] . . . guard their private parts scrupulously, 6 except with regard to their wives and those who are legally in their possession, for in that case they shall not be blameworthy.”

[Quran] Sura 4:24
“And forbidden to you *are wedded wives of other people * except those who have fallen in your hands (as prisoners of war) . . .”

For proof of this claim (that slave-girls as sexual property in the Quran and Muslims can rape them their slave-girls)

see forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=89778

answering-islam.org/Silas/femalecaptives.htm

So not only can they rape these slave girls, but even if these slaves girls have husbands they can still rape them!

[Hadith] Sunan Abu Dawud, Book V, Chapter 711, Number 2150
“Abu Sa’id al-Khudri said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.** Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers.** So Allah, the Exalted, send down the Qur’anic verse: “And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hand possess.”[Surah 4:24] …”

cont…

 

[discipleofJesus]

…

A woman is deficient in intelligence and religion and a woman’s testimony counts for half of a man’s testimony

[Quran] Sura 2:282
“And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents [contracts of loans without interest].** But if two men be not available**,** there should be one man and two women * to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her*.”

{Hadith] Sahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah’s Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, “O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women).” They asked, “Why is it so, O Allah’s Apostle ?” He replied, “You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands.** I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you**. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” **The women asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said, ** “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her religion.”

[Hadith] Sahih Bukhari
Volume 3, Book 48, Number 826:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
The Prophet said, “Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?” The women said, “Yes.” He said, “This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.”

I suggest you read ‘Top ten rules in the Quran that oppress and insult women’ by James M. Arlandson answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/women_top_ten.htm
and check out the links I provided in my above post.

Further reading
debate.domini.org/newton/womeng.html

debate.domini.org/newton/allah.html#women

answering-islam.org.uk/Shamoun/women_in_islam1.htm

Christianity does not treat women badly.

Here are some verses from the Bible

Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

Ephesians 5:28
In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

Colossians 3:19
Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

 

[discipleofJesus]

discipleofJesus:

Muhammad consumated marriage with a nine year old girl (Aisha) when he was 54 years old and thus not only commited this horrible act but set the precedent for future Muslims to be allowed to marry young girls (since according to Islam is a excellent/good exemplar)

[Quran] Sura 33:21
“Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.”…

(since according to Islam is a excellent/good exemplar)
= (since according to Islam, Muhammad is a excellent/good exemplar)

 

[Booklover]

Faith101:

Please provide proof from the Quran and the authentic sunnah of the Prophet, peace be upon him, to support your claims that what these ppl did is in line with Islam.

i’ll be waiting for your response.

]

I don’t see why I should have to go to the Quran or the sunnah to prove anything! You’re the one that has to prove to me that Islamic beliefs are not responsible for this poor girl’s plight! Muslims keep saying that Muslim women are more liberated than western women but that’s just ridiculous. IMHO Muslim women are treated as if they are a disease or something equally bad. After all aren’t most of the inhabitants of hell supposed to be women according to your prophet?

Do you believe this girl should be hanged for killing her would-be rapist? Why should this girl have had to carry a knife for her protection in the first place? Obviously, because she didn’t feel safe without it. Evidently other Muslim women do the same. Isn’t the Islamic mode of dress supposed to discourage men from lusting after women??

I’m not saying that rape doesn’t occur in other places, but women here in the states can go to the beach in the skimpiest bikinis and you don’t see western men chasing them all over the place trying to rape them! So why are so many Muslim men going after Muslim women dressed in the approved Islamic style? Maybe the repressive nature of Islam is responsible for this behaviour.

Vickie

 

[Liberalsaved]

George Waters:

Doing something in defiance of your teachings is worse than doing something in accordance with your teachings… to your teachings. However, certain things are fundamentally wrong. We can not fall into moral relativism, claiming something is all right because that is someone’s particular belief or because a man-made law says it is legal. Slavery and murder are wrong, yet slavery was practiced in the United States and abortion is still legal here. That does not make them right. They are wrong. The treatment of humans should not be subject to individual belief or to blatantly immoral laws.

I am not so easily as you able to file aborton under the heading of wrong. Tell me: the children who would be born but unwanted and live horrible lives as a result; are *you * willing to take them in?

 

[Liberalsaved]

discipleofJesus:

Oh really, is that right? It’s mind-boggling to read such comments, especially ones written with such confidence.

Here are some examples of Islam treating women badly (Yes Islam! Since it is what the Quran teaches and/or what Muhammad teaches and/or exemplifies)

Men are allowed to hit their wives

Husbands may hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives (note that that they only have to fear highandedness and they may hit them. In any case though, whether they are high handed or not it is wrong to hit your wife!)

[Quran] Sura 4:34
“…If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great.”

Muhammad consumated marriage with a nine year old girl (Aisha) when he was 54 years

Muhammad consumated marriage with a nine year old girl (Aisha) when he was 54 years old and thus not only commited this horrible act but set the precedent for future Muslims to be allowed to marry young girls (since according to Islam is a excellent/good exemplar)

[Quran] Sura 33:21
“Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.”

[Hadith] Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

[Hadith] Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

The Quran even permits men to men to marry prepubescent girls

[Quran] Sura 65:1,4
“O Prophet, when you (and the believers) divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting-period and count the waiting-period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden.”

Maududi interprets the plain meaning of verse 4 like this:
“Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl at this age but it is permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur’an has held as permissible.” (Maududi, vol. 5, p. 620, note 13, bold and underline emphasis added)
**
Slave-girls as sexual property in the Quran and Muslims can rape their slave-girls**

[Quran] Sura 23:5-6
“[Most certainly true believers] . . . guard their private parts scrupulously, 6 except with regard to their wives and those who are legally in their possession, for in that case they shall not be blameworthy.”

[Quran] Sura 4:24
“And forbidden to you **are *wedded wives of other people *** except those who have fallen in your hands (as prisoners of war) . . .”

For proof of this claim (that slave-girls as sexual property in the Quran and Muslims can rape them their slave-girls)

see forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=89778

answering-islam.org/Silas/femalecaptives.htm

So not only can they rape these slave girls, but even if these slaves girls have husbands they can still rape them!

[Hadith] Sunan Abu Dawud, Book V, Chapter 711, Number 2150
“Abu Sa’id al-Khudri said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.** Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers.** So Allah, the Exalted, send down the Qur’anic verse: “And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hand possess.”[Surah 4:24] …”

cont…

How does this prove your point? I beleive what is needed here is examples of how Christianity does NOT treat women with less respect than they deserve.

 

[discipleofJesus]

Liberalsaved:

How does this prove your point? I beleive what is needed here is examples of how Christianity does NOT treat women with less respect than they deserve.

you must be kidding? i provided plenty of proof showing that Islam treats women badly.

I then quoted several verses from the Bible to give an idea of how women are treated in Christianity

Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

Ephesians 5:28
In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

Colossians 3:19
Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

If someone wants to claim that Islam doesn’t treat women badly, the burden lies on them to refute my evidence and what i have said in my above posts.

If someone wants to claim that Christianity treats women badly, the burden lies on them to prove that it does from the Bible. My quotes from the Bible indicate that women are not treated badly in Christianity.

Islam treats women badly.

Christianity does not.

 

[Liberalsaved]

discipleofJesus:

you must be kidding? i provided plenty of proof showing that Islam treats women badly.

I then quoted several verses from the Bible to give an idea of how women are treated in Christianity

Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

Ephesians 5:28
In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

Colossians 3:19
Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

If someone wants to claim that Islam doesn’t treat women badly, the burden lies on them to refute my evidence and what i have said in my above posts.

If someone wants to claim that Christianity treats women badly, the burden lies on them to prove that it does from the Bible. My quotes from the Bible indicate that women are not treated badly in Christianity.

Islam treats women badly.

Christianity does not.

All I have yet to see is examples of islamic wrongdoing, whereas his point was that Islam is not the only one. Your sole proof that Christianity does not treat women like less is the statement “Christianity does not treat women badly”, and I’m afraid I can not take your word on that. You offer no proof of his actual claim being false and continue to dodge the question.

 

[r.gonzales]

discipleofJesus:

Islam treats women badly.

Christianity does not.

my wife, who is a former catholic convert to islam, would tell you differently. she loves the respect and honour bestowed upon her through islam.

what would be a true statement is that some muslim men treat women badly, which i would totally agree with and acknowledge as true.

 

[Booklover]

r.gonzales:

my wife, who is a former catholic convert to islam, would tell you differently. she loves the respect and honour bestowed upon her through islam.

Really? Are we supposed to be impressed by that?

 

[Liberalsaved]

Booklover:

Really? Are we supposed to be impressed by that?

Do you expect everyone else to be impressed when you give your word otherwise? This door swings both ways, friend.

 

[r.gonzales]

Booklover:

Really? Are we supposed to be impressed by that?

yes, really; and no, i don’t expect anyone to be impressed with that. just stating a fact, of which it seems, you have a problem with. :ehh:

 

[Ortho]

]

I don’t see why I should have to go to the Quran or the sunnah to prove anything! You’re the one that has to prove to me that Islamic beliefs are not responsible for this poor girl’s plight! Muslims keep saying that Muslim women are more liberated than western women but that’s just ridiculous. IMHO Muslim women are treated as if they are a disease or something equally bad. After all aren’t most of the inhabitants of hell supposed to be women according to your prophet?

Do you believe this girl should be hanged for killing her would-be rapist? Why should this girl have had to carry a knife for her protection in the first place? Obviously, because she didn’t feel safe without it. Evidently other Muslim women do the same. Isn’t the Islamic mode of dress supposed to discourage men from lusting after women??

I’m not saying that rape doesn’t occur in other places, but women here in the states can go to the beach in the skimpiest bikinis and you don’t see western men chasing them all over the place trying to rape them! So why are so many Muslim men going after Muslim women dressed in the approved Islamic style? Maybe the repressive nature of Islam is responsible for this behaviour.

Vickie

Many western women carry knives and guns to protect themselves. Why do they have to do that? Is the nature of Christianity responsible for this?

Why should a bikini clad woman be any more likely to be raped than one dressed in a business suit?

 

[Ortho]

discipleofJesus:

you must be kidding? i provided plenty of proof showing that Islam treats women badly.

I then quoted several verses from the Bible to give an idea of how women are treated in Christianity

Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

Ephesians 5:28
In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

Colossians 3:19
Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

If someone wants to claim that Islam doesn’t treat women badly, the burden lies on them to refute my evidence and what i have said in my above posts.

If someone wants to claim that Christianity treats women badly, the burden lies on them to prove that it does from the Bible. My quotes from the Bible indicate that women are not treated badly in Christianity.

Islam treats women badly.

Christianity does not.

Apparently neither the bible not the Quran are followed very well by their nominal adherents.

One does not need the bible to show that Christian women are treated badly. Just look at the crime stats in the US.