The Roman Catholic Church IS a denomination

[chris_molter]

Fair enough.

But I honestly don’t know of another word that expresses the same meaning as the dictionary definition of “denomination” that I can use and theologically agree with.

There really isn’t… Christendom doesn’t adequately do it. Perhaps just trying to phrase things so it isn’t necessary to use a disputed term is best, even though it can make things more wordy and clunky. Sometimes it’s better to try to be precise and not unintentionally derail a discussion with terminological debates.

maybe say “denominations and Churches”? That covers the whole ground, I think.

 

[Hisalone]

A dictionary presents words using their common-use definitions. When Catholics disagree over the use of the words “Church” or “denomination” it’s because these words have a finer theological or ecclesiological definition that is not commonly used by laymen (and by that I mean laymen as in “laymen’s terms” not laity! )

I think we can all agree that by the layman’s/dictionary definition Catholicism is a denomination and the PCA is a Church.

However, in the proper sense, neither is true…

LOL but alas both are true.

 

[With_Questions]

There really isn’t… Christendom doesn’t adequately do it. Perhaps just trying to phrase things so it isn’t necessary to use a disputed term is best, even though it can make things more wordy and clunky. Sometimes it’s better to try to be precise and not unintentionally derail a discussion with terminological debates.

maybe say “denominations and Churches”? That covers the whole ground, I think.

I look at it this way.

Imagine someone who has absolutely no knowledge of Christianity coming to Christ the first time maybe through a neutral source like reading the Bible.

He then wakes up the next day and learns that in fact Christianity seems to come in a gazillion diffierent flavours.

How would he view Christianity? What word would he use for all of the different flavours he sees?

He may or may not use the word denomination. If he doesn’t, it is probably because it is a religious word that he is not familiar with.

I can assure you that what he does not do is to start with the assumption that the Roman Catholic church is exclusively the one true flavour and that everything else is…well…something else.

 

[Bear_Claw]

Unfortunately there will never be a resolution here. The Catholic will say that they are the original church, all other churches, including the Orthodox and reformed churches are Denominations, and so, the term “Denominations” don’t apply to them.
The Orthodox Church would say the same thing from their point of view.
Protestants see everyone as a denomination.
So, not only is the correct word use necessary for ecumenical communication, but all parties have to agree on the terms used.
This will never happen here.

The Catholics are too stubborn to back down. It’s in their nature, it’s in their teachings. They are being taught to believe (on pain of death and hell) that their church is the one true church, the original church. They don’t even suspect, and can’t concede the point that the Catholic church is also flawed, because it’s run by men who think they hear the voice of God. Yup, just like the others. They don’t realize that other churches that they label denominations also use apostolic succession i.e. Orthodox and old Catholic. They don’t seem to realize why the protestant revolution happened. Things were flawed. They just blamed the people and excommunicated them.

The problem is that it’s so drilled into them and they are being threatened with death if they deviate, that no matter what proof or evidence you produce to refute this with them, they’ll just keep on repeating their stance over and over and nothing will change that.
The basic fundamental principle of their church is being threatened by this and they will not back down.

They believe that they are the original church, but they forget that even in scriptural times, there were others chasing out demons in Jesus’ name and even Jesus Himself didn’t condemn them…when His disciples wanted to. Ring a bell?

They don’t see that so much time has passed since Jesus walked the earth and men is so involved that their denomination is also with flaws like the others are. But no, they’ll not see this. They can’t see this. If they do realize this, they commit a sin.

It’s sad really, because the rift between Christian denominations is getting bigger because of things like this.

And yes, I know I’m going to get it for this post!

 

[Thing]

Since the English language has been around much longer than any of us, I highly doubt whether you asked the guys and gals who invented English.

If you want a definition of an English word I say you can do no better than go to the dictionary created by the people who invented the English language - namely the Oxford English Dictionary…

 

[Bill_Pick]

Unfortunately there will never be a resolution here. The Catholic will say that they are the original church, all other churches, including the Orthodox and reformed churches are Denominations, and so, the term “Denominations” don’t apply to them.
The Orthodox Church would say the same thing from their point of view.
Protestants see everyone as a denomination.
So, not only is the correct word use necessary for ecumenical communication, but all parties have to agree on the terms used.
This will never happen here.

The Catholics are too stubborn to back down. It’s in their nature, it’s in their teachings. They are being taught to believe (on pain of death and hell) that their church is the one true church, the original church. They don’t even suspect, and can’t concede the point that the Catholic church is also flawed, because it’s run by men who think they hear the voice of God. Yup, just like the others. They don’t realize that other churches that they label denominations also use apostolic succession i.e. Orthodox and old Catholic. They don’t seem to realize why the protestant revolution happened. Things were flawed. They just blamed the people and excommunicated them.

The problem is that it’s so drilled into them and they are being threatened with death if they deviate, that no matter what proof or evidence you produce to refute this with them, they’ll just keep on repeating their stance over and over and nothing will change that.
The basic fundamental principle of their church is being threatened by this and they will not back down.

They believe that they are the original church, but they forget that even in scriptural times, there were others chasing out demons in Jesus’ name and even Jesus Himself didn’t condemn them…when His disciples wanted to. Ring a bell?

They don’t see that so much time has passed since Jesus walked the earth and men is so involved that their denomination is also with flaws like the others are. But no, they’ll not see this. They can’t see this. If they do realize this, they commit a sin.

It’s sad really, because the rift between Christian denominations is getting bigger because of things like this.

And yes, I know I’m going to get it for this post!

label denominations also use apostolic succession i.e. THIS STATEMENT IS EITHER NOT TRUE OR YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT

 

[chris_molter]

I look at it this way.

Imagine someone who has absolutely no knowledge of Christianity coming to Christ the first time maybe through a neutral source like reading the Bible.

I’d dispute that there’s such a thing as a neutral source. Reading the Bible as though it fell from the sky is the problem, not the solution. The body of believers itself is where knowledge of Christianity begins.

Of course that’s a different debate/discussion for another thread I think! As far as terminology, though, I think we’re actually making progress!

 

[Thing]

I look at it this way.

Imagine someone who has absolutely no knowledge of Christianity coming to Christ the first time maybe through a neutral source like reading the Bible.

He then wakes up the next day and learns that in fact Christianity seems to come in a gazillion diffierent flavours.

How would he view Christianity? What word would he use for all of the different flavours he sees?

He may or may not use the word denomination. If he doesn’t, it is probably because it is a religious word that he is not familiar with.

I can assure you that what he does not do is to start with the assumption that the Roman Catholic church is exclusively the one true flavour and that everything else is…well…something else.

I, personally speaking, would go to the earliest Christian Church, if I were interested in Christianity, as Christ, the originator of Christianity, said He would build a Church not a book => He must have a Church somewhere, and that Church, as He said, would last until the end of time. It is somewhere now, it began in 33AD, and it grew and continued to spread to ‘all the nations’ as He said, continuously to the present day. How many christian faiths have that continuous 2000 year history and are at the same time spread throughout all the nations?
Catholicism, obvious.

 

[Bear_Claw]

label denominations also use apostolic succession i.e. THIS STATEMENT IS EITHER NOT TRUE OR YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT

Okay, first, shouting is not nice. Really. I’m sure you are familiar with the etiquette. There are other ways to make your statement better understood, like using bold, or hey, a different colour. I’ll forgive you this once though.

Second, sorry, I made a typo. I mean to say “other denominations”. I guess I had a finger slip on the spell check button. I would go back and edit it, but I guess too much time has passed, I don’t have that option anymore.
And I gave examples of the other denominations claiming apostolic succession didn’t I?

So, what does this tell me? You are very defensive. You judge me on the first go around, claiming that I don’t know what I’m talking about, even after I gave examples. Did I hit a nerve?

 

[Graubo3]

Unfortunately there will never be a resolution here.

And yes, I know I’m going to get it for this post!

How do to you Mr./Ms. Claw,

I disagree with your first sentence (where’s your hope for change that’s-a-sweepin’ the nation?) and agree with your last. I can’t type very well now because of the bamboo shoots that the priest put under my fingernails this morning. I think that there is another poster at CAF that you may find more informing to engage with: paarsurrey. Very enlightening! (is that against the rules?)

I am trying to find any Catholic source that refers to the Orthodox Church as a “denomination”. Can you help? Hey maybe we can start a new thread? Or maybe a denomination in your garage or basement? Waddya Say?

I’m not going to give it to you. I’ll wait until paarsurrey gets involved and then I might jump in.

P.S. Bill isn’t yelling. Ya know, he’s been blaming his keyboard for a long time.

Hey Bill, you got shoots in your fingers too? I think paarsurrey even offered to buy Bill a new one.

Have a nice weekend!

Peace, Graubo

 

[With_Questions]

I’d dispute that there’s such a thing as a neutral source. Reading the Bible as though it fell from the sky is the problem, not the solution. The body of believers itself is where knowledge of Christianity begins.

Of course that’s a different debate/discussion for another thread I think! As far as terminology, though, I think we’re actually making progress!

You mean you are saying that it is impossible to come to Jesus Christ from reading the Bible? Or are you saying that for somebody to be converted to Christianity just from reading the Bible is a bad thing?

My point stands though. Somebody who comes to Jesus and Jesus alone with no knowledge of theology, history, or religon will soon after be encountered with a gazillion different flavors of Christianity.

He will not start with the assumption that your flavor is the one true flavor and that every else is to some level inferior.

If he is fair minded, he will start with the assumption that all of these…um can I say it…denominations…are more or less equal. Perhaps upon further investigation he will choose one or another based on whatever metrics he considers important. But he will not start that way.

 

[With_Questions]

I, personally speaking, would go to the earliest Christian Church, if I were interested in Christianity, as Christ, the originator of Christianity, said He would build a Church not a book => He must have a Church somewhere, and that Church, as He said, would last until the end of time. It is somewhere now, it began in 33AD, and it grew and continued to spread to ‘all the nations’ as He said, continuously to the present day. How many christian faiths have that continuous 2000 year history and are at the same time spread throughout all the nations?
Catholicism, obvious.

Of course you being Catholic would say that.

But maybe he will not choose your metric-du-jour.

Maybe he will look at all of the different flavours in his community and choose that which seems the most Christlike to him.

Which will of course be…

my denomination of course.

(only kidding)

 

[CWBetts]

You mean you are saying that it is impossible to come to Jesus Christ from reading the Bible? Or are you saying that for somebody to be converted to Christianity just from reading the Bible is a bad thing?

My point stands though. Somebody who comes to Jesus and Jesus alone with no knowledge of theology, history, or religon will soon after be encountered with a gazillion different flavors of Christianity.

He will not start with the assumption that your flavor is the one true flavor and that every else is to some level inferior.

If he is fair minded, he will start with the assumption that all of these…um can I say it…denominations…are more or less equal. Perhaps upon further investigation he will choose one or another based on whatever metrics he considers important. But he will not start that way.

I believe what he is saying it is the Church that has the authority,not the Bible, and certainly not some disaffected monk who got his breeches in a twist. The authority of Catholicism goes back to Christ himself. Not to John Weseley, Not to John Calvin, not to Martin Luther. It goes back to Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God. I don’t care what you call yourself. Anyone who is not in communion with the Catholic Church is in a state of rebellion towards Jesus. This should come as a surprise to no one, as Protestants seem to have a hard time agreeing with themselves. Every time you turn around a new denomination splits away from the rest. Ever wonder what the difference bewtween a Southern Baptist and an American Baotist was. What about English Lutheran and Missouri Synod? American Presbetyrian and United Presbetyrian. Not to mention all of the various so-called “non-denominational” congregatons where people gather to feel good about themselves as they listen to a watered down version of Christianity thet preaches a propserty Gospel devoid of reponsibility. We aren’t forced to accept the CAtholic Church as the One True Church under pain of excommunication. Where did you come up with such rubbish. However if you would simply read the scriptures you would see that such is the case.If the CAtholic CHurch is not the true Church, amd Peter was not the first Pope, then explain to me which modern Church is the One true Church, because that is the one I will ally myself with.

 

[chris_molter]

You mean you are saying that it is impossible to come to Jesus Christ from reading the Bible? Or are you saying that for somebody to be converted to Christianity just from reading the Bible is a bad thing?

My point stands though. Somebody who comes to Jesus and Jesus alone with no knowledge of theology, history, or religon will soon after be encountered with a gazillion different flavors of Christianity.

He will not start with the assumption that your flavor is the one true flavor and that every else is to some level inferior.

I think someone with zero experience of Judaism or Christianity would probably not wind up believing what Nicene Christians believe if he just read the Bible and somehow believed it was true (for whatever reason). I think whatever his culture and traditions are would influence him and he would wind up with some sort of amalgamated faith that incorporated Biblical elements into whatever his current belief system was.

You cannot divorce the Bible from the Church.

If he is fair minded, he will start with the assumption that all of these…um can I say it…denominations…are more or less equal. Perhaps upon further investigation he will choose one or another based on whatever metrics he considers important. But he will not start that way.

Let’s say your scenario happened and this person did come to believe that Jesus was the Messiah just by reading the OT and NT (which I think is unlikely). Would he believe that Jesus was God? That they were one substance? Would he be able to discern the Trinity from the few passages that allude to it? What would he do when presented with mutually contradictory beliefs held by various denominations?

Historically, it’s been very easy for Christian groups to fall into heresy. Even a cursory glance at the history of early Christianity is replete with heresies and the Church using its authority to denounce and excommunicate (and clarify and pronounce). And these early heretics were often ordained, well educated, and had been brought up within Christian or Jewish culture. What chance would one person with no understanding of Judaism or Christianity have of arriving at remotely orthodox beliefs just by reading the Bible outside a body of believers?

 

[Bill_Pick]

How do to you Mr./Ms. Claw,

I disagree with your first sentence (where’s your hope for change that’s-a-sweepin’ the nation?) and agree with your last. I can’t type very well now because of the bamboo shoots that the priest put under my fingernails this morning. I think that there is another poster at CAF that you may find more informing to engage with: paarsurrey. Very enlightening! (is that against the rules?)

I am trying to find any Catholic source that refers to the Orthodox Church as a “denomination”. Can you help? Hey maybe we can start a new thread? Or maybe a denomination in your garage or basement? Waddya Say?

I’m not going to give it to you. I’ll wait until paarsurrey gets involved and then I might jump in.

P.S. Bill isn’t yelling. Ya know, he’s been blaming his keyboard for a long time.

Hey Bill, you got shoots in your fingers too? I think paarsurrey even offered to buy Bill a new one.

Have a nice weekend!

Peace, Graubo

if parrsurrey offered to get me a new one i missed that can you please tell him to make the offer again PLEASE thats yelling

 

[Graubo3]

if parrsurrey offered to get me a new one i missed that can you please tell him to make the offer again PLEASE thats yelling

Bill Pick,

I can’t remember which thread of his he had that on. He’s got so many! Have a nice weekend!

Peace, Graubo

 

[allhers]

Another thing people don’t seem to realize is that the Bible was compiled BY THE CHURCH, for The Church. It wasn’t written down to convert anyone (although it can and does do that.) I would
think that if I were to not be Catholic and just read the Bible and were interested in being aligned with its teachings that I would want to know what CHURCH it was speaking of. (just my opinion.)

 

[With_Questions]

I think someone with zero experience of Judaism or Christianity would probably not wind up believing what Nicene Christians believe if he just read the Bible and somehow believed it was true (for whatever reason). I think whatever his culture and traditions are would influence him and he would wind up with some sort of amalgamated faith that incorporated Biblical elements into whatever his current belief system was.

You cannot divorce the Bible from the Church.

Let’s say your scenario happened and this person did come to believe that Jesus was the Messiah just by reading the OT and NT (which I think is unlikely). Would he believe that Jesus was God? That they were one substance? Would he be able to discern the Trinity from the few passages that allude to it? What would he do when presented with mutually contradictory beliefs held by various denominations?

Historically, it’s been very easy for Christian groups to fall into heresy. Even a cursory glance at the history of early Christianity is replete with heresies and the Church using its authority to denounce and excommunicate (and clarify and pronounce). And these early heretics were often ordained, well educated, and had been brought up within Christian or Jewish culture. What chance would one person with no understanding of Judaism or Christianity have of arriving at remotely orthodox beliefs just by reading the Bible outside a body of believers?

Umm you might have been misunderstanding what I was saying.

I was not saying that he stays me, myself, and my Bible for the rest of his life.

That is not the way that God designed it. Of course God designed the church (whatever it is) for teaching (for one thing).

So in my scenario, this new believer eventually has to wade through all of the flavors of Christianity he encounters and choose a church so that He will receive (hopefully) orthodox teaching.

I was just saying that he came to believe that Jesus was the Messiah through reading the Bible. That is all.

I think you are way overcomplicating what I was saying.

All that I am trying to say really is that someone who is a not a Christian, is not partial to any particular strain of Christianity, and is no more than a casual observer of Christianity (and maybe my example is not the greatest so don’t get hung up on it) will observe Christianity as divided into “denominations” of which yours is one of them, whether he uses the word “denomination” or something else.

If he were to come to the conclusion that (1) one of these denominations is the “one true church” or (2) the one true church is found within all of these denominations, he will will come only come to this conclusion upon further study.

 

[With_Questions]

Anyone who is not in communion with the Catholic Church is in a state of rebellion towards Jesus.

This is very condescending.

Very condescending.

In fact you will be the third person to make my ignore list.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Bill Pick,

I can’t remember which thread of his he had that on. He’s got so many! Have a nice weekend!

Peace, Graubo

thank you for the info,have a great weekend