The Roman Catholic Church IS a denomination

[Francesca24]

Just for the record, fortunately we don’t rely on dictionaries for what we profess we are.
We are The Church NOT a denomination.

AMEN TO THAT!!!

As we all know, but maybe some of us have forgotten, Martin Luther, a catholic priest, broke away from the Catholic Church and formed his own group because he thought he could do it better!!! That was only the beginning to the rest of the protestant groups. The Catholic Church is not another denomination, but it is the only Church there was for 1,500 years before Luther and still continues the same after 2000 years!! …and that is the fact.

so…AMEN again to your comments!!!

 

[With_Questions]

I believe the Op’s definition of denomination is confused with the definition of “Religion”.

No, I specifically used the definition of denomination.

The Catholic faith is the Christian religion, not a denomination from it.

Or so you claim. Let’s see if you can prove this from the dictionary.

Denomination taken from the first meaning not the (4)th meaning as the op has done, means 1-the act of denominating

Oh goody, you found the same Miriam-Webster online dictionary that I use.

2- the name of a class of things

And this also from the dictionary

(meaning all other christians churches denominated from Protestantism, and Protestantism denominated from Catholicism
[check your church history and founders where they denominated from?

Here is the definition of denominate:

Main Entry: de·nom·i·nate
Pronunciation: \di-ˈnä-mə-ˌnāt, dē-\
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Latin denominatus, past participle of denominare, from de- + nominare to name — more at nominate
Date: circa 1552
1 : to give a name to : designate
2 : to express or designate in some denomination

There is nothing in this definition that implies B denominates from A.

Their is only one Church Jesus built on Peter, and Peter present day Pope is still here today in the Roman Catholic church).

And this is the opinion of you and your denomination expressed as though it were factual.

.3rd meaning refers to a class or kind

And this is from the dictionary

(Christian denominations fit this profile for they fall into a class or kind of Christianity that differs from the Original Christian religion in the Catholic church founded by Jesus Christ himself).

And this again is the opinion of you and your denomination expressed as though it were factual.

4th meaning a particular religious body, with a specific name, organization etc?

The fourth being specifically

a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices

This meaning does not reference the Body of Jesus Christ in the Catholic church. For this meaning “attaches a particular religious body” “specifically named organization”. The Catholic church is not a particular religious body, she is the “body of Jesus Christ”. Neither denomination meanings qualify the Catholic church.

Again this is the opinion of you and your denomination expressed as though it were fact.

Now you can not use a dictionary to present a definition of a word, then present a theological argument as though it were fact to somehow negate the dictionary.

But even if this all is factual, this does not negate the fact that you are still

a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices

In other words your theology and the dictionary definition of denomination are not mutually exclusive

Have you looked up the Word Catholic? here is a meaning for you from the dictionary. “often of the CHRISTIAN CHURCH AS A WHOLE, specific of the ANCIENT UNDIVIDED CHRISTIAN CHURCH.”

Here is the precise definition

1 a often capitalized : of, relating to, or forming the church universal b often capitalized : of, relating to, or forming the ancient undivided Christian church or a church claiming historical continuity from it c capitalized : roman catholic

The dictionary is clear about what the Catholic church is. Not a denomination or the same dictionary would have referenced her as a denomination.

The definitions of Catholic and denomination are not mutually exclusive.

Is your church denomination named in the dictionary?

Should I care?
[/quote]

 

[With_Questions]

Good point. But that is why we go to school to learn. Especially the differences between Catholic Rites and Tradtions from denominations. If you wrote a paper explaining what the different Rites are in Catholicism, I would give an “A+” if you did not confuse the term “denomination” to distinguish the different Catholic cultural Rites, languages and peoples, does not justify our Catholic diversities to be a denomination. Unless you are speaking about non Catholics who call themselves “Catholic” but are truly not.

The point being is that if the author used too small of a granularity for the word denomination in that he divided the Catholic denomination into 242 denomination, then he also used too small of a granularity for the word denomination with respect to Protestants, Independents and marginal and his number should not be used to determine the number of Protestant denominations.

You can not selectively apply a source.

 

[With_Questions]

I’m curious: since when does a dictionary dictate the Church’s understanding of itself?

Actually they do not.

But dictionaries do define the meanings of words within the English language.

So if you want to use the English language to communicate the Church’s understanding of itself to the outside world, you are constrained by the dictionary definition of words in the English language.

Now if you want to invent a new language for use only by Catholics, you are free to define words as you see fit. Perhaps that is what you are doing here. If that is indeed what you are doing, then I will bow out of the conversation.

But I thought you were using the English language here.

These three articles read in order help explain why the Church is not a denomination:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a45.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/a130.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/a129.htm

I have read these articles actually,

Even if I were to accept these articles as 100% gospel truth (which I do not), these articles and the dictionary definition of denomination are not mutually exclusive.

 

[With_Questions]

If there are any Protestants out there who believe that we are saved by faith alone I ask you to turn to Matthew 25:31-46. Do you think the sheep got separated from the goats because their faith wasn’t strong enough. If we dont attend to the least of His Brethren then we are leaving Jesus unattended. We have to see the face of our Lord in all our neighbors who are in need of our Christian charity and we must do it for the glory of God not to be self-righteous. Then we become Jesus hands and legs as the Holy spirit works through US.

I guess I should really start a new thread. anyone like to debate Mat. 25:31-46 with me?

Yeah that is really a new thread.

No I don’t care to debate Matthew 25:31-46.

I don’t believe that God gave us His Holy written word as a debate tool.

 

[Thing]

Actually I said:

To which you responded

To which I responded

Now I will leave this to the reader to judge whether looking for the most Christlike flavour of Christianity in his community means the same as rejecting the Church the apostles believed in because you think you’re too good for them.

But if I were reading this, I would not think that quote 2 logically follows from quote 1.

Actually you said you thought Christ would look for the most Christlike community/church and choose that - as if He had not already chosen the Church He established in 33AD.
So yes if Christ came back to choose a different church, one which He felt was more Christlike than that one which He had already established for all time, that, would entail a rejection of the Church He had chosen to establish.
But thats just silly, as you know, because He promised His Church that He would remain with it until the end of time - the One True Church is a fait accompli and its just a pity that people don’t like it and go off and try to start their own ‘churches’ in preference to His.

 

[alanjeddy]

Yeah that is really a new thread.

No I don’t care to debate Matthew 25:31-46.

I don’t believe that God gave us His Holy written word as a debate tool.

You are correct but in apologetics one must in a charitable way defend ones faith. In Matthew 25:31-46 Christ does make it clear that our salvation is also a direct result of seeing the face of Jesus in all our neighbors who are in need of our Christian charity.
It can’t be debated. Matthew 25 shows us the way to salvation through Christian works of charity.

I will start a new thread take care of yourself and God Bless.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Since I am getting tired of quoting the dictionary every time this statement is made:

So unless you want to say that either your are not a religious organization or that you are not united, then you are a denomination. And if you want to claim that either the above are not true, then Protestants do not have denominations either.

So don’t argue with us any more. Take your dispute to the dictionary.

First of all, the use of the word “denomination” is not meant to be disrespectful. The word simply means a different “group” , a different “community”, of Christians…who are not “Catholic”. More often we will indicate the proper name of a particular denomination, such as “Lutheran”, or “Methodist”, or “Baptist”, and the like. I h ope this is helpful,

 

[With_Questions]

First of all, the use of the word “denomination” is not meant to be disrespectful. The word simply means a different “group” , a different “community”, of Christians…who are not “Catholic”. More often we will indicate the proper name of a particular denomination, such as “Lutheran”, or “Methodist”, or “Baptist”, and the like. I h ope this is helpful,

OK.

The dictionary however does not restrict the word denomination to “Everybody else who is not Catholic”.

So if you want to use the English language to communicate, you are kind of constrained to the definitions of words as found in the English dictionary.

If you want to invent a different language, then of course you can define words as you see fit.

However I will confine myself to the English language thank you, not the language you might want to invent.

 

[With_Questions]

Actually you said you thought Christ would look for the most Christlike community/church

Actually the subject in that statement was the new Christian trying to sort out all of the various flavours of Christianity He encounters, not Christ.

Sorry if I wasn’t plainly communicating and you misunderstood me.

 

[Thing]

Actually the subject in that statement was the new Christian trying to sort out all of the various flavours of Christianity He encounters, not Christ.

Sorry if I wasn’t plainly communicating and you misunderstood me.

You really should identify your subject

Thing:

…Christ, the originator of Christianity, said He would build a Church not a book => He must have a Church somewhere, and that Church, as He said, would last until the end of time…How many christian faiths have that continuous 2000 year history and are at the same time spread throughout all the nations [as He ordered]…

With Questions:

But maybe he will not choose your metric-du-jour.

Maybe he will look at all of the different flavours in his community and choose that which seems the most Christlike to him.

Which will of course be…

my denomination…

My metric-du-jour (which incidently is not mine, but His) holds true whether the subject is Christ or a prospective Christ.

 

[eucharist04]

Denominations did not start until people broke away from the Catholic Church. Heresy has it’s price.

 

[With_Questions]

Denominations did not start until people broke away from the Catholic Church. Heresy has it’s price.

Oh the “h” word.

Love it.

I guess this supports the general observation that when you can’t or don’t want to make an intelligent case to support your position, you can always resort to insults and condescension.

Well now I have another name to aviod.

 

[With_Questions]

You really should identify your subject

Correction noted. I just am not as smart as most people here I guess.

My metric-du-jour (which incidently is not mine, but His) holds true whether the subject is Christ or a prospective Christ.

As I have said, the definition of denomination as put forth by the English dictionary and your particular theology of the church (which I disagree with but is off topic) are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The point being is that if the author used too small of a granularity for the word denomination in that he divided the Catholic denomination into 242 denomination, then he also used too small of a granularity for the word denomination with respect to Protestants, Independents and marginal and his number should not be used to determine the number of Protestant denominations.

You can not selectively apply a source.

Ok, With Questions it appears you subject your Christianity to secular sources which even they confirm that the Catholic church was founded by Jesus Christ himself. I can understand you may not have the understanding of Jesus teaching of his body in the Catholic church, but please dont put words in our Lords mouth, and disgrace his body by comparing it to a secular term “denomination” that does not define the Catholic church.

As far as your sources that wrongly imply denomination to the Catholic diversities, as comparing them to protestant differences of Christian doctrine that justifies the term denomination do apply. When you bring up theological thought as not able to justify your “interpretation” of denomination speaks volumes of your understanding of who really is Jesus Christ.

The body of Jesus Christ has been called many names from antiquity, but never in the history of Christendom has the Catholic church been ever reffered to as a “denomination” (See your dictionary) in the definition your trying desperately to fit a square into a circle.

How about a definition taken from God’s word. why dont we hear it from the book that overrides your english rendering of words;

Mathew 16;17 Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
**And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, **13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Where is this church today that Jesus built on Peter?
When Jesus built his church, he did not build a “denomimation”. Now the term “denomination” can reference Jesus fulfilling the law and the prophets then enters the church, but the term “denomination” again does not apply for Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant and gave humanity a New and everlasting covenant.

 

[With_Questions]

Ok, With Questions it appears you subject your Christianity to secular sources which even they confirm that the Catholic church was founded by Jesus Christ himself.

No…but…

If I want to determine the number of Protestant denominations that exist, I can either (1) take it upon myself to count them or (2) rely on the work of somebody else.

So do you for that matter.

I don’t think anybody here has taken it upon themselves to count all of the Protestant denominations. I certainly have not/ Therefore either the number 30,000 is totally made up, or most likely based on the source I mentioned.

Now this source from which you all say that 30,000 Protestant denominations exists also counts 242 Catholic denominations.

I don’t think you want to claim there are 242 Catholic denominations. Therefore you should not be claiming there are 30,000 Protestant denominations.

Otherwise you are selectively applying a source. You will flunk out of college using that technique.

That is the only point I am making.

BTW I have absolutely no interest in debating Matthew 16. I will leave that to people smarter than myself.

Sheesh, is it all that complicated. I must be really, really stupid if I can’t communicate that well.

 

[With_Questions]

When Jesus built his church, he did not build a “denomimation”. Now the term “denomination” can reference Jesus fulfilling the law and the prophets then enters the church, but the term “denomination” again does not apply for Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant and gave humanity a New and everlasting covenant.

Your peculiar definition of church (which I disagree with but is another topic) and the definition of denomination as found in the dictionary are not mutually exclusive.

 

[allhers]

Apparently, some people just don’t understand that the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC (UNIVERSAL), and APOSTOLIC CHURCH, that Jesus Himself founded, existed BEFORE the Bible was ever compiled, is that so hard to understand, really?

 

[Wintersdemise]

Regardless of what the history of the Roman Catholic Church is or is not, it is still

When it comes to definitions you’re right,

BUT

If it weren’t for reformation groups splintering off from the Church there would be no denominations. Just one United Church like God intended.

My point is that the Church did not take the initiative to become just another denomination like Lutherans and Methodists for example. It was those who broke off from the Church.

 

[Wintersdemise]

Apparently, some people just don’t understand that the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC (UNIVERSAL), and APOSTOLIC CHURCH, that Jesus Himself founded, existed BEFORE the Bible was ever compiled, is that so hard to understand, really?

Yea, not to mention is was our very Church that compiled the Bible in the first place!