The rosary, Mary, confused

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Horizon87

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Hi I posted a topic about ‘reasons why I should become Catholic’ a while back, which can be seen here:
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Reasons why I should become Catholic? Non-Catholic Religions
Sadly, many Catholic institutions no longer teach Truth. At my own alma mater, St. Louis University, there is an LGBTQ club. Pro-life signs are ripped down. For Lent one year, a crucifix was adorned with a rainbow flag. The basketball coach publicly supported abortion and was not asked to step down.
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I haven’t yet made the commitment yet. Certain life problems have gotten in the way, and I’m still trying to convince myself.

One of the things I’m having trouble with is the Marian beliefs and prayers in the Catholic Church. It’s not that I don’t believe in Mary, because one of the things that has me believe in her are the miracles in Loudes, which I find absolutely fascinating, but it is more about the devotion in prayer and through the rosary to her that I need to understand more.

I have been raised in very protestant Christian conditions in the UK and it just seems strange to me, all of the marian stuff, as it is very different.

I very much know and am aware you believe Mary intercedes for us through praying to her to reach God, and I understand all that, but my brain needs more than that, and by more I need some historical or factual direction on why Catholics believe this.

So I have a few questions if people don’t mind answering:

1.) When did the prayer to Mary begin in the Church history and is this something that evolved or has it always existed?

2.) Has the rosary always been used and has it always been associated with Mary?

3.) Why was the prayer to mary and the use of rosary dropped by protestants?

Please forgive me of my ignorance, I am still learning about the Catholic Church, and I just wanted to hear different viewpoints on this to help me understand everything better.

Thanks
 
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It’s Scriptural. Look up the passages re: Mary and the Angel Gabriel.
The rosary has been used for centuries, long before people owned prayer books or could read. They replicated the praying of the 150 psalms bu the monks by praying 150 Hail Mary’s.
They never took it up in the first place.
 
First know that, to be a Catholic in good standing, you need not ever pray a single Rosary.

Further, that each and every uniquely Protestant doctrine or belief is in error at some level and does not square with the Church which Christ founded. Much of what they believe is true, but there remains serious error that continues to lead many astray from the fullness of truth.

The early reformers approached the Greek Orthodox to form a pact against the Catholic Church, but the Orthodox rebuffed their advances, stating that the rejection of the Apostolic Tradition rendered Protestantism invalid as a “Church.” The reformers essentially thought the Orthodox to be too Catholic.

Perhaps the writings of John Henry Cardinal Newman would help. He had an absolutely agonzing journey from Anglican to Catholic, being rejected by his Anglican brothers and distrusted by his new Catholic brothers. He converted anyway.
 
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@Horizon87

Hi 🙂 Good questions.

Mariology is a big subject, so bear in mind this is very much a compressed response.

Mary being unique in the salvific plan is something that goes back very early when the Fathers of the Council of Ephesus pronounced her “Theotokos” or the Mother of God. A Doctor of the Church, St Ephrem - the person in my avatar - is the first one known to refer to her as “Queen of Heaven” and this was around the time of the Council of Nicea-Constantinople.

Marian devotional practices developed gradually over the centuries. The Rosary in its more primitive form we see in use in the Middle Ages. The decades themselves use the “Hail Mary” Prayer [the Hail Mary prayer is a basic intercessory prayer of supplication: it is us asking for God’s grace & protection] the content of the meditation itself is of course the Gospels: the mysteries of sorrow, joy, light, and glory.

As to the question, “Why don’t protestants use the Rosary?”, one answer is that some of them do pray the Rosary, including among the Anglican Communion. Many don’t, and this generally relates to Papal Authority and the four pronounced Marian dogmas: Mother of God, Perpetual Virgin, Immaculate Conception, and Assumption. Other than Mother of God, the other three dogmas aren’t made absolutely explicit through scripture or come later. The Assumption, for example, happens some number of years after the events recorded in the book of Acts. The Church has always relied on Sacred Tradition & the Magisterium in this regard. It was through Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium, for example, that the Church established the canon of Scripture now known as the Bible. Since protestants are generally sola scriptura, this means the dogmas usually aren’t accepted.

Let me know if that was satisfactory. Peace.
 
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Prayer to Mary is really, really old. I’m no scholar but you see it documented (which means it existed before) by at least 250 AD or so. There could be earlier examples. I think looking to the Orthodox Church helps here. They adore the Blessed Virgin as much as the Catholic Church. Many Protestants try to say devotion to Mary is a Catholic thing. It isn’t.

The Orthodox have the Axion Estin:
It is truly right to bless thee, O Theotokos,
thou the ever blessed, and most pure, and the Mother of our God.
Thou the more honorable than the cherubim,
and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim,
who without corruption gavest birth to God the Word,
thou the true Theotokos, we magnify thee.
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And the Sub tuum praesidium
Beneath your compassion,
We take refuge, O Mother of God:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure, only blessed one.
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(Note: I’m no Expert in Orthodoxy but based on my amateur investigation this is what I discovered)

You’ll see the language is as flowery as any Catholic prayer. And it is prayer, petitioning, and praising.

As to why prayer and devotion to Mary was dropped it is my opinion that Protestantism is essentially a ‘me and Jesus’ religion. It is focused on personal faith. It doesn’t really have room for others. It doesn’t fully appreciate the corporate nature of the Faith and Church. That is because at the end of the day religion is all about your own personal interpretation. When Protestants first left the Church they, to varying degrees, maintained some sense of the cult of Saints left over from the Catholic Church. But the root of their religion couldn’t make good sense of this and eventually it withered away.
 
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             Questions about Mary part 1
Why do Catholics believe Mary was immaculately conceived? Romans 3:23 says that all have sinned and or deprived of the glory of God.
Luke writes that Mary is full of grace, highly favored, Lk 1:37: for with God nothing will be impossible. She is the woman of Genesis 3:15 whose enmity with Satan and sin is absolute. She is the Ark of the Covenant Ex 25:11-21 mad to hold the Living Word of God a holy Tabernacle made not of the purest gold, but of the purest flesh.

If Mary never sinned, she doesn’t need a savior. So why does Mary say in Luke 1:47 : my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
Mary was saved by the Merits of Christ, just as we are. The difference between Mary and other Christians is that her salvation from sin was more perfect. While we are freed from original sin at our baptism, Mary was preserved from original sin at her conception. But Jesus is the savior in both cases.

Why do Catholics believe that Mary was a Perpetual virgin? Matt. 13:55-56 says that Jesus had brothers and sisters.
Catholics are not alone in this belief. Protestant reformers Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Ulrich Zwingli also defend Mary’s Perpetual virginity. The Hebrew and Aramaic languages spoken by Christ and his disciples do not have separate words for brother, cousin or near relative. For example, in the original Hebrew, Lot is called Abraham’s brother Gen 14:14. Yet we know that Lot was Abraham’s nephew Gen 11:27 . The Jews use the word brother for all kinds of relationships, not just for Blood Brothers 1Cor 15:6, Mt. 23:8, .Acts 7:23.

Why do Catholics believe that Mary was assumed Body and Soul into heaven?
Scripture does not record the Assumption of Mary, so we depend on apostolic tradition for our belief. However, the assumption is not anti scriptural. In fact, scripture gives every indication that such a thing could occur. Consider the usual end of certain righteous people. Enoch was taken to heaven without dying Heb 11:5; and Elijah was whisked into heaven buy a fiery chariot 2 King 2:11. Mat. 27:52 suggest a bodily assumption before the second coming, and many Protestants believe in the rapture based on 1 Cor 15:52. Mary is simply the first to be raptured.

Like the Saints with their bones and artifacts that are found. We haven’t found a Trace of Mary’s bones or artifacts. Why wouldn’t Jesus take her to heaven body and soul she is His real biological mother! She is our adoptive mother!
 
Code: 
            Questions about Mary for 2
Why did the Catholic Church invent the dogma of the Immaculate Conception in 1854, and the bodily assumption in 1950?

The Catholic Church officially defined the doctrines in 1854 and 1950, respectively. She did not invent them at that time, any more than she invented the doctrine of the Trinity when she officially Define it in 325, or invented the New Testament when she officially determined the canon in 393 and 397. The Catholic Church was merely codifying a belief which always existed in the church, and was expressed in the writing of early church fathers.

Are Catholics required to believe in the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary?

Yes. All Catholics are required to believe everything that Christ Church teaches. Officially Define doctrines or called dogmas, which every Catholic must accept in order to be a faithful Catholic. When these two doctrines were infallibly Define, they became binding dogmas of faith.

Why do Catholics pray to Mary? 1 Timothy 2:5 says there is no mediator between God and Men, the man Christ Jesus.

Catholic ask for Mary’s intercession for the same reason that we ask for a fellow Christians intercession the prayer of a righteous man has greater power in its effects James 5:16 because Jesus is the one mediator between Earth and Heaven, We intercede for one another as members of Christ’s body. If fellow Saints praying for us on Earth do not destroy Christ role as the one mediator, neither do glorified Saints praying for us in heaven. Mary is the greatest st. Why wouldn’t we seek her powerful intercession?

Is the Hail Mary scriptural?

Yes, the first part of the prayer is taken almost word-for-word from scripture. Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you! Luke 1:28
Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb Luke 1:42… Jesus!

The second part is based on scripture. Holy Mary…you have found favor with God Luke 1:30
Mother of God… mother of my Lord
Luke 1:43

Pray for us sinners… as we Christians pray for one another

Isn’t the rosary a kind of repetitious prayer condemned by Jesus in Mt 6:7?

In Mt 6:7, Jesus is not condemning all repeated prayers. He says, do not Babble like the pagans, who think that they will be heard because of their many words. Jesus is teaching Christians that we are not to pray with the Pagan attitude that the more we repeat a prayer the more likely we are to be heard 1 Kings 18:25-29 for an example of this pagan mentality. A Christian who thinks he needs to repeat a prayer in order to be heard in heaven has a problem with faith. This is the error Jesus is correcting. Notice that Jesus repeats the same prayer three times in the Garden of Gethsemani Mt 26:44. The publican who humbly repeated, God be merciful to me a sinner Lk 18:13 went home Justified. The four living creatures in heaven repeat day and night, holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come Rev 4:8. These versus show that prayers repeated with the proper attitude is very pleasing to God. The rosary, recited devoutly, fulfills part of the biblical exhortation to pray without ceasing 1 Thess 5:17.
 
Horizon 87
Mary’s life brings us close to Jesus. He was born of Mary. She cared for Him. She loved Him. She traveled the Via Doloroso w Him. She stayed at the foot of His cross till He died. He loves her. We feel, since a grave for Mary has never been found, that Jesus came and took His Mom to heaven w/o death.
Elijah rose to heaven in Fiery chariot. He didn’t die.
It is felt, God protected her from being born w/o original sin b/c she was going to carry God within her and had to be pure.
Google Marian Apparitions. There is Lourdes, Fátima, Majugorje in Bosnia. There is one in Spain= Garabandal.
The first part of Hail Mary is in Bible. The second part is asking her to pray for us. It’s the same w Saints. Never pray for Mary or Saints to heal us. You pray to God, the Father, in the name of Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Lord, please guide me in this time of my need…
Prayers to Mary and Saints are like this. Dear St. Francis, and my Sweet Blessed Mother, I’ve prayed to God to help me in this the hour of my need——-
Would you continue praying for me to our Father. Keep my prayer flowing to the Father’s throne.
In Jesus name, by the power of the Holy Spirit.
The Rosary is a study of Jesus’ s life. The Joyous mysteries reflect on The annunciation to Mary. The visitation of Mary to Elizabeth. The Birth of Jesus, the Presentation Of Jesus to the Temple. Finding
12 yo Jesus in the Temple. When you look up Sorrowful mysteries you’ll understand. The Glorious mysteries. We’ve just added the Luminous.
So, we offer our prayer request. Say the rosary. Reflect on Mary and Jesus’s life from scripture.
She gave promises to us for saying the Rosary.
She’ll stand w Jesus at our time of judgement and plead for our forgiveness. Jesus’s blood will cover those who have walked w Him.
God is God. We shall have no other God’s before Him. That’s why we don’t adore Mary but love and honor her. Her life as connected to Jesus.
I pray my wanderings help you.
In Christ’s love
Tweedlealice
 
Thank you very much for the replies.

I am already reading up some of the information about Mary that you all reference.

I also read medical paper on Lourdes last night, and all the different miracles that could not be medically explained. Absolutely fascinating and mind boggling.

So in my mind I am thinking, how can all this be possible if Mary isn’t what the Catholic Church teaches? How can she be a lesser figure as some believe, if miracles are happening?

By the way, it isn’t just through the water that miracles were happening in Lourdes, it was also going to Lourdes the place itself, where people were experiencing miracles.

I also think about Fatima, and think how can all that be possible as well…Then there is the great story of the miraculous intercession of the Virgin Mary in 1944 to prisoner Claude…

Are we to deny these experiences? I find it very difficult to. But the problem I have is the justification in my mind scripturally to do it. I understand the “Hail Mary, full of grace” from Luke 1:28 is where you cite scripturally some evidence. But this is argued as Greek translation being taken too literally, and this is why other Bible translations don’t include this. In fact, nearly every bible translation I have compared, even the KJV does not say it, except only the Catholic bibles. Which is why I am confused as to who is correct.

I have a Catholic bible from the Vatican as a gift from my parents who went there, and it is beautiful and easy to read. It is the bible I like to go to when I want to read a whole chapter and verse,. But other times I will read from apps from a phone or tablet, and these have the options of choosing different translations, and most of those don’t have the same translations as my Catholic bible. In fact, thry dont include a catholic translation like the RSV at all, and the words used in the others are slightly different and this, as you know, can give you a different meaning. So that is why I find myself in this position of conflict with trying to justify one against all the others, who all share something similar than they do with the Catholic bible translation.
 
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Horizon87 said:
So in my mind I am thinking, how can all this be possible if Mary isn’t what the Catholic Church teaches? How can she be a lesser figure as some believe, if miracles are happening?
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If I had to take a guess as to why people believe they’re not attributed to Mary:
  1. These miracles are done by God alone and those crazy Catholics are falsely attributing them to Mary (because Mary-worshipers).
  2. Demons
 
OK, so the biggest block for me to become a Catholic i’s the way the Catholic Church dedicates a lot more to Mary. This isn’t a bad thing, but just that it seems very alien to me.

I have seen a few Catholics (not all) who concentrate their prayers to Mary more than God and Jesus and that seems wrong to me.

The worst thing about this, is that I know originally here in the UK the Catholic Church was the one and only Church and the Mary intercession etc was all normal. But I have so much Anxiety about doing it wrong, and thinking I’m being disrespectful towards God. It sounds stupid, I know but I hear and read so many reasons why people say we shouldn’t pray or ask anything of Mary. So I don’t know who to trust. But what I do know is I keep coming back, and wanting to accept and get my head around it.

Can somebody give me an example of a typical day or scenario where Mary would be used in prayer to intercede, and with that how many prayers each day a week have her involved?

I’m really sorry if I sound ignorant. I know this must seem a bit insulting for me to ask and question so much about this. Forgive me, I’m still trying to learn and understand.
 
To paraphrase Pope Francis, when we honour Mary we are pointing to the ideal of Christian discipleship.

It may be useful to think in a slightly different way. Many people who object to the Hail Mary prayer only focus of the opening words, but at the centre of the prayer is Jesus, literally and spiritually.

Don’t forget the Church has wisely distinguished between the different types of honour we give - dulia, hyperdulia, and latria.

From EWTN, “Dulia is a Greek term meaning the veneration or homage, different in nature and degree from that given to God, that is paid to the saints. It includes, for example, honoring the saints and seeking their intercession with God. Related to dulia is Hyperdulia, the special veneration accorded the Blessed Virgin Mary because of her unique role in the mystery of Redemption, her exceptional gifts of grace from God, and her pre eminence among the saints. Hyperdulia is not adoration; only God is adored. Such adoration reserved exclusively for God is termed latria, a Greek-rooted Latin term that refers to that form of praise and worship due to God alone.”

As previously mentioned you can be a Catholic in good standing without ever once praying a rosary. But imagine being at home with your family and never once asking your mother for help or to pray for you!

The earliest recorded prayer to Mary dates from the 3rd century - Sub tuum praesidium. Note that’s the earliest recorded no doubt there were others before and images of Mary adorn the catacombs of Rome, most notably in the Catacombs Priscilla, dating from the 2nd century. In many ways the Protestant churches are the odd ones out as the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have honoured and asked Mary’s prayers for centuries and even the Anglican church kept her feast days and dedications following the English reformation.

I highly recommend this talk on the rosary from Fr John Walsh O.P. - Celtic Connections: Fr. John Walsh on the Rosary – Irish Dominicans
 
You don’t have to ask for the intercession of Mary if you don’t want to. I can’t speak to whatever Catholics you’ve seen or how you perceive their prayers, but the fact is you can be a Catholic and not talk to Mary at all. If you attend Mass, you’ll notice the entire focus of our prayers at Mass are on God. The priest doesn’t lead everyone in a Hail Mary, the priest leads everyone in an Our Father.

The way I look at it is this. If I’m having a hard time with something, or I get some bad news about a family member, and I ask a friend of mine from my parish to pray for me, or pray for my family, is that something you’d have a problem with as a protestant? It doesn’t mean I think my friend is God, it just means I think two prayers are better than one. I say my prayer, and my friend says his prayer, and since prayer is a good thing that’s twice as many good things.

Since everyone in Heaven is still a part of the Christian Church (specifically the Church Triumphant), taking part in the heavenly liturgy and whatnot, it’s really no different to ask Mary to pray for me than to ask my friend here on Earth to pray for me. We know from scripture that the saints (those who are in Heaven) are watching us in the Church Militant (those of us alive on Earth) and want us to join them. This is the great cloud of witnesses talked about in Hebrews chapter 12 (like my username 😉). There’s some other passages of scripture that talk about or allude to the intercession of saints, but I don’t remember where off the top of my head.

What do we say during the Hail Mary prayer, if we choose to say it? We ask Mary to “pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death”. I don’t know how it can be any clearer than that.
 
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Question: Does anyone here actually believe in the Mary apparitions and miracles?
 
“You are either for Mary or for the Devil” - St Lucia

(Paraphrased)
 
1 since the early church

2 since the middle ages

3 it hasn’t been completely.

Edit: please excuse my double post. Trying to break the habit.
 
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Horizon87 said:
Question: Does anyone here actually believe in the Mary apparitions and miracles?
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I believe in all of the Church-approved ones.

I’m on the fence about most of the ones that are not yet officially approved. I do believe strongly in one Jesus/ saint apparition that the Church has not yet approved but the person who reported it is currently on the path to sainthood; however, Mary did not appear to that person.
 
The Miracle in Fatima Portugal was witnessed by over 70,000 people. Read some of the stories from witness’s in newspaper archives. Nothing, Nothing like it since Biblical times. If you cant believe the testimony from eyewitness, Nothing I say or anyone on this forum will probably convince you. By the way, Portugal is now over 97% Catholic.
 
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