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Jack007
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syromalabar catholics, atleast those in kerala, have electrifyingly high rates of church attendance and adherence to catholic doctrine and social teaching.
to which i agree.
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Seraphim73
Guest
Canons on the erection of national churches? Never heard of those canons. As to having regional churches organized along political lines you better believe in it. You were part of a Church organized that way for over a thousand years and you currently have national churches in the Roman Catholic communion. See Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.
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andrewstx
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One of the big differences is that Orthodox people are not expected under pain of mortal sin to be present at DL each and every Sunday. I think that makes quite a difference.
And lazy, surely you jest. To receive Holy Communion Orthodox are traditionally required to attend Saturday Vespers, confess and abstain from marital relations and fast from midnight to be communed. All of these liturgies are lengthy. This you call ‘lazy’?
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Rob_Arnzen
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Same basic difference. Given the battles over canonical status between various hierarchies, I am genuinely surprised the canons are unfamiliar to you.
In any case the basic thrust of your argument lacks any basis whatsoever from the Catholic perspective. Orthodox have “converted” Catholics, sometimes at gunpoint, and maintain outreach such as the Western Rite Orthodox aimed at gaining adherents.
The best defense to others proselytizing is to get one’s own house in order and keep it in order.
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Seraphim73
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You guys just can’t help it can you?
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Rob_Arnzen
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It is very difficult not to point out the logical inconsistencies in your positions, your dual criterion for Catholic vs Orthodox behavior, and to not be a Catholic in a Catholic forum.
Is this a problem?
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chimo
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I think Steve some Orthodox are bothered by what some Catholics are saying about the Fatima message. Perhaps the Orthodox should not pay attention to these Catholics who misinterpret the Fatima massage as for instance the Fatima Crusader and so on. Steve you have the right perspective to what the Fatima message is. However the Orthodox may tend to get bog down on so many interpretations that they feel they are not getting the accurate and correct understanding of the Fatima message. It will be to the advantage of the Orthodox to only listen to the interpretation which Pope John Paul II had given. Forget the rest for they serve no purpose.This seems to me to be selective reasoning from a defensive posture. I don’t think Mary intended, nor does anyone that I know who was praying for the conversion of Russia pray to convert the Russian Orthodox. The prayers were for the conversion of the atheistic communist state. I know that was the case when I was praying for the conversion of Russia. If the conversion was to happen through the Russian Orthodox Church, great. There is no reason for anyone to walk around with a chip on their shoulder. The Catholic Church is not out to get the Orthodox.
Peace.
Steve
It is to my understanding that the Orthodox Church do not know of Redemptive Suffering. Since Redemptive Suffering has a lot to do with the Fatima message we tend not to give it any meaning to it. The Church in Russia was suffering. Will the sufferings of the Christians be able to turn the tide of the aggressiveness which the Communists were trying to impose on them. It seems to God that Redemptive Suffering will not be enough. It will help but God needs another source to help turn the tide in quicker fashion. Here the Blessed Mother had come to give another source to work alongside the sufferings of the people. We know that in Redemptive Suffering that God issues great Graces in response to these sufferings. However in the case of Russia another source was needed to help complete these Graces. From the great sacrifices which the Catholics and many others had made in response to the requests of the Mother of God combining it with the great sufferings of the Russian peoples as well as other peoples the Lord was able to grant the essential Graces to turn the tide that had inflicted this Eastern country as well as other countries.
I am an Orthodox who is thankful for the generosity which many Catholics had given towards the change within Russia and Eastern Europe. Their prayers and contribution helped quickened the change. God needed this extra Grace to combine it with the Grace that Redemptive Suffering had already brought. Perhaps one day the Russian Orthodox will learn about Redemptive Suffering so that they will understand better why they needed this extra boost from Mary.
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Isaiah45_9
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Correct!
From the CCC:
De Fide: Public Revelation ended with the death of Saint John the Evangelist.
Fr. John Trigilio on Marian aparitions:
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Rob_Arnzen
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Make that “statements of fact” responding to one-sided “accusations”.
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Just but probably not needed since it was a response to an accusation.
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Seraphim73
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What accusations were you responding to?
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Rob_Arnzen
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Then why do you continue to poke sticks?
Just asking.
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Just asking.
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Rob_Arnzen
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E.g.:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12346630&postcount=92
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12346458&postcount=89
“You guys” happen to be Catholics, not Orthodox.
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Seraphim73
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I don’t see how you could take either of those as an accusation. Certainly none of your posts following those have addressed those. You responded by telling me we should get our house in order, that you’re Catholic and I’m Orthodox (I know that already), and that Orthodox have converted Catholics by force. How does any of that relate to the two posts you cited?
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Rob_Arnzen
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Of course not, you’re not a Catholic.
The fact that Orthodox have converted Catholics by force specifically addressed your bringing up the issue of the Ukrainian Catholics.
The comment that the best defense is an offense - e.g., getting your house in order - did not specifically address, nor was it addressed to, Orthodox. It is precisely what the Catholic Church is attempting in response to a sharp rise in Evangelical proselytizing among Hispanics.
You seem genuinely surprised that Catholics respond as Catholics, a perplexing stance for someone participating in a forum entitled “Catholic Answers”.
You appear to be sharply tuned in to anything that might - from your perspective - be considered bigotry against Orthodoxy but completely tone deaf as to your own derogatory comments about Catholics and Catholicism.
Just saying.
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SteveVH
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Will you please give me the quote where I used the word “lazy” or even implied it? I wasn’t even being critical. I made the point that the percentage of “Catholics” who attend Mass each and every week is abysmal. This goes across all faith traditions, unfortunately.
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SteveVH
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Thank you for being so kind.
This made me stop and wonder what many Orthodox thought of St. Pope John Paul, II and his role in bringing down the USSR which resulted in more freedom for the Russian Orthodox as well as Catholics behind the iron curtain.
Peace.
Steve
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chimo
Guest
Your welcome and your posts are very interesting to read as it help us to reflect the spirit of St. Pope John Paul II. To answer your question I really do not think that many Orthodox, Russian or any others, have the time to ever reflect on St. Pope John Paul II or on any other major Catholic teaching since they are too busy with their own people. The people who must give this information to the Orthodox must be Orthodox. The Orthodox do not reflect on anything Catholic while growing up in an Orthodox parish. I have been doing this at my Orthodox parish. I bring to light what is very good in Catholicism so that the Orthodox will begin to see it as well. There is not much contact towards anything Catholic in an Orthodox parish. I found it easier since I have a Catholic formation already within me and I have this great chair in my Orthodox Church that was built for Pope John Paul II when he came to Canada in 1984. The chair was built for the Basilica in Halifax, Nova Scotia for the Pope’s visit and the church had given the chair to my parish when they did not need it anymore. I for one was very glad and joyful that one of my heroes has this relic in my Church. I would teach many of my altar boys the person and holiness of now St. Pope John Paul II. Their eyes would light up when I tell them about how this Pope escaped the assassination attempt of May 13, 1981 and it was because of a certain woman named Mary who in 1917 had given us a vision of this (including many 13’ths of the month) so that we could pray to enable God to save this Pope in 1981 so to finally end this Communist threat. In time I believe more Orthodox will know of this sainted Pope and to discover the connection with Our Lady of Fatima. Yet it must come from the Orthodox to do this as most Orthodox do not connect with anything about the Catholic Church normally while growing up in a parish.
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andrewstx
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I am sorry Steve, please forgive me. I searched most of the thread and no one used the word ‘lazy’. Let alone yourself. The only thing I can think of is that I am 59yo, and had a bad stroke that has affected my mind in not so good ways.
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Peter_J
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Exactly. The designer of the CA website even gave the forum an “Ignore” feature, so there’s no excuse for reading something just-because-it’s-there.
(Of course, I don’t really know how many posters have me on their Ignore list – which is probably just as well.
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SteveVH
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What a great treasure for your Church! We have a first class relic of St Pope John Paul, II (some hair from his last hair cut) placed in our altar. What is really amazing about this is that we are a very small parish (400 families) in a very small town. We built a new Church five years ago under the name of Pope John Paul, II and a Polish family in our parish (three of which were confirmed by JPII when he was the Bishop of Krakow) had some great connections. We are very honored.
I guess I view the event as historical, rather than a matter of faith. Rather than having to be taught one really just had to pay attention to the news. There is really no denying the role JPII had in changing the history of Eastern Europe and Russia and the resulting freedoms enjoyed by all faith traditions relative to the oppression that they suffered under the USSR. Our prayers have been answered to a great degree.
As for Catholic teaching on Fatima and other matters of faith, yes I agree completely, it must and it should come from the Orthodox.
God bless.
Steve
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