J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
For all the small narrow minds out there: the Bible didn’t fall out of the sky totally complete and certified by the Holy Spirit as the only rule of faith.
- Status
S
skelly123
Guest
Actually, you have quoted scripture which COMMAND US those very things you call “erroneous”.
We are to live by scripture ALONE - said Jesus in Matt 4:4.
We do walk by Faith and not by sight, and anything not of Faith is a sin, and God CANNOT be pleased without Faith - said the Apostle Paul in 2nd Corinth 5:7 / Roms 14:23 / Heb 11:6.
You said: “God alone” is just as erroneous as 'faith alone" and “scripture alone”. Please see the above.
About the “effectual prayer” availing much … You know what? Try praying the way Christ and the Apostles instructed. Here it is again. And by the way, if you do it like they told you … you won’t need dead people to help you, okay? Here you go …
Ephs 2:18: For through Him we have access by one Spirit to the Father.
1st Tim 2:5: For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus…
John 14:14: Ask anything in My name and I will do it.
We are to live by scripture ALONE - said Jesus in Matt 4:4.
We do walk by Faith and not by sight, and anything not of Faith is a sin, and God CANNOT be pleased without Faith - said the Apostle Paul in 2nd Corinth 5:7 / Roms 14:23 / Heb 11:6.
You said: “God alone” is just as erroneous as 'faith alone" and “scripture alone”. Please see the above.
About the “effectual prayer” availing much … You know what? Try praying the way Christ and the Apostles instructed. Here it is again. And by the way, if you do it like they told you … you won’t need dead people to help you, okay? Here you go …
Ephs 2:18: For through Him we have access by one Spirit to the Father.
1st Tim 2:5: For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus…
John 14:14: Ask anything in My name and I will do it.
S
skelly123
Guest
OF COURSE NOT ! ! ! That’s why we’ve got the Book of Morming … and the Book of Buddha … and the Book of Mohammed … and the Book of Hare Krishna ! ! !
HA ! No seriously though, I do care about you. Listen, paying attention to these other religions and philosophies will only show you one thing … No one loves you better than Your Father in Heaven. For you were bought with a great price.
sk.
HA ! No seriously though, I do care about you. Listen, paying attention to these other religions and philosophies will only show you one thing … No one loves you better than Your Father in Heaven. For you were bought with a great price.
sk.
C
christcnection1
Guest
There is not a single true Catholic (or Christian) that does not adamantly believe this. We agree with this statement wholeheartedly, and it has been the consistent teaching for nearly 2,000 years.
Only Jesus death could pay for our sins to redeem us – not any of the Saints. Do not confuse the two issues, in case you are.
God bless,
JB
G
guanophore
Guest
Well, at least we agree about something.
There is nothing that says asking for intercession or favors from believers should stop at death’s door. 1 Cor 6:12 “All things are lawful for me”
In freedom Christ has set us free.
It is a misunderstanding to think that asking others to pray for us is somehow not praying to the Father, or that asking for the prayers of others is not done “in His name”. There is no separation between those things. I don’t ask people for prayer who don’t pray to the Father (Pagan friends, for instance) or those who do not pray in the name (authority) of Jesus (such as the JW neighbors). They do not believe Jesus is God, so I do not ask for their prayers.
No, Jesus earned that.
He shares with us his divine ministry of reconciliation and intercession.So here are the TRUE instructions to prayer …
1st Tim 2:5: For there is ONE God and ONE Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus…
Ephs 2:18: For through Him we have ACCESS by one Spirit to the Father.
John 14:14: Ask anything in MY NAME and I will do it.
I wish you a Proverbs 10:22 day.
Selma Kelly.
Your post represents that you have a disconnect in your thinking between perfect prayers made by holy and righteous people to the father through Jesus, and our prayers with the saints, but no disconnect exists.
Your post also has a pedantic quality, as though you are instructing the ignorant to correct them from error.
G
guanophore
Guest
Really? I would like to know, then, where you think it came from?
One of the translations does, yes. Vulgar means common. It was the language of the people (unwashed masses). Like the Greek Koine, it was translated so that average people could read it, who did not have study in the ancient languages.
Can you please give examples of these? Or better, start a new thread, because that is off topic here.
This is also off topic here, which is against the forum rules. Making baseless and unsubstantiated calumnous accusations is also against the forum rules.
Actually, although you may end up BBQ’ed, it will not be by anyone here. the worst thing that will happen to you here is that you will get banned for violation of the forum rules.
Apparently only the part that really happened!
O
onenow1
Guest
Hi.All
2 In the eyes of the foolish they seemed to have died, and their departure was thought to be an affliction,
3 and their going from us to be their destruction; but they are at peace.
4 For though in the sight of men they were punished, their hope is full of immortality.
5 Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself;
6 like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them.
7 In the time of their visitation they will shine forth, and will run like sparks through the stubble.
8 They will govern nations and rule over peoples, and the Lord will reign over them for ever.
9 Those who trust in him will understand truth, and the faithful will abide with him in love, because grace and mercy are upon his elect, and he watches over his holy ones.
Comment: If this is not enough here’s what Father Abraham has to say.
20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz’arus, full of sores,
21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried;
23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz’arus in his bosom.
24 And he called out,
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
27 And he said,
30 And he said, `No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.
Comment: #2 This seems to be a dipiction of some things that can occur after death, it appears intercession is possible.
i’m no expert but if I remember correctly when proper names are used it is a true story.
Peace, OneNow1
Wisdom 3
1 But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and no torment will ever touch them.2 In the eyes of the foolish they seemed to have died, and their departure was thought to be an affliction,
3 and their going from us to be their destruction; but they are at peace.
4 For though in the sight of men they were punished, their hope is full of immortality.
5 Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself;
6 like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them.
7 In the time of their visitation they will shine forth, and will run like sparks through the stubble.
8 They will govern nations and rule over peoples, and the Lord will reign over them for ever.
9 Those who trust in him will understand truth, and the faithful will abide with him in love, because grace and mercy are upon his elect, and he watches over his holy ones.
Comment: If this is not enough here’s what Father Abraham has to say.
Luke 16
19 "There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz’arus, full of sores,
21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried;
23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz’arus in his bosom.
24 And he called out,
Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz’arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
27 And he said,
Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' 29 But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’30 And he said, `No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.
Comment: #2 This seems to be a dipiction of some things that can occur after death, it appears intercession is possible.
i’m no expert but if I remember correctly when proper names are used it is a true story.
Peace, OneNow1
G
guanophore
Guest
Don’t forget that Luther took this book out of the Protestant Bible, so they don’t have this reference. Most Protestants don’t know that Wisdom was in the Bible that Jesus used.
A
avflf
Guest
Scripture only is the way Protestants believe. You believe in Tradition also and in the Infallibility of the Pope in matters spiritual. Muslims believe that their Prophet received the Holy Quran from an Angel. Jews accept the Talmud as being above the Torah. Different strokes for different folks
I don’t.
God doesn’t prevent you from doing what you like, good or bad.
I’ll have a look
O
onenow1
Guest
Quote=guanophore.Don’t forget that Luther took this book out of the Protestant Bible, so they don’t have this reference. Most Protestants don’t know that Wisdom was in the Bible that Jesus used.
"πάντα δὲ δοκιμάζετε τὸ καλὸν κατέχετε " 1 Thess 5:21
How could I forget ?:bigyikes:
Peace, OneNow1
"πάντα δὲ δοκιμάζετε τὸ καλὸν κατέχετε " 1 Thess 5:21
How could I forget ?:bigyikes:
Peace, OneNow1
G
guanophore
Guest
This one did make me LOL. News flash, skellly! That Bible you have been whacking people on the head with is a Catholic book. And the Catholic Church is the one that has preserved the Apostolic teachings.
I hope and pray that, you really will someday submit to the Final Authority that Jesus left on earth.
No one ever said there was. Clearly you are criticizing something you don’t understand. Where did you learn all these errors about Catholicism?
There are two errors in this statement, one that the saints are dead, which they are not, and the other that Jesus does not share the benefits of His Kingdom with His disciples. On the contrary, He said “greater things than I do, will you do, because I go to the Father.” Humans did not earn this. It is a gift.
Catholics don’t ask anything “in her name”. It would be a violation of the first commandment! Or maybe you don’t believe those are valid any more either?
Jesus quotes from that book, that is how we know it was part of His Bible.
Nowhere in the Bible is there a list of the books that belong in it. That list was compiled by the CAtholic Church.
This is a reference to oral preaching, not to the written word, which did not exist yet at the time. The NT was written after oral preaching.
It seems like you have quite a bit of study to do.
I suspect that things did not go well for him at his death.
It seems that you belongn to some type of Sola Scriptura, prosperity, evangelical sect. I hope you don’t blow yourself out of the forum before youhave a chance to learn something.
W
water
Guest
I only needed to repond to your first part of your post.
The real harm is - do not let one’s spritual pride blinds his own eye.
O
onenow1
Guest
Philippians 1
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.22 If it is to be life in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell.
23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better
Mark 12
27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quitewrong
Genesis 25
8 Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people.A fwe more verses.
Peace, OneNow1
A
avflf
Guest
From the above url:
Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!”
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, but they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the people on earth.
Angels do the same thing: “Another angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).
Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10).
Where do you get “prayers to the saints” from the above?
Ps 103 is a cry for the Angels and the Host to praise God, nothing else. It does not say that one must pray to them
Rev. 5:8 This passage does not state that the prayers in the bowls were prayers to the elders, just the prayers of the saints. This is the same for Rev. 8:3, 4.
Again I fail to see the connection of prayer to departed spirits or Angels in Mt. 18:10
You must have a vivid imagination, which is a good thing. I envy you.
As to the Church Fathers you will note that as the years rolled on a new doctrine formed.
Hermas’ passage says nothing about the subject but by the time Ambrose of Milan came on the scene this new doctrine had established itself in the religious consciousness of the Church.
Personally, I am not concerned either way but I enjoy discussing the Bible.
G
guanophore
Guest
If my prayers end up in a bowl of one of the elders, being presented to HIm amidst the worship of holy angels, how happy am I !Where do you get “prayers to the saints” from the above?
Ps 103 is a cry for the Angels and the Host to praise God, nothing else. It does not say that one must pray to them
Rev. 5:8 This passage does not state that the prayers in the bowls were prayers to the elders, just the prayers of the saints. This is the same for Rev. 8:3, 4.
Again I fail to see the connection of prayer to departed spirits or Angels in Mt. 18:10
You must have a vivid imagination, which is a good thing. I envy you.
F
fellowChristian
Guest
F
fellowChristian
Guest
Yes they do!
1 Timothy 2
1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
Hebrews 12
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
James 5:16
16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Matthew 5:44
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and **pray for them **which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Romans 15:30
30Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ’s sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;
2 Corinthians 9
12For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
13Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;
14And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you.
**15Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.**Hebrews 1:14
14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Revelation 5:8
8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Revelation 8:3-4
3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.
1 Timothy 2
1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
Hebrews 12
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
James 5:16
16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Matthew 5:44
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and **pray for them **which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Romans 15:30
30Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ’s sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;
2 Corinthians 9
12For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
13Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;
14And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you.
**15Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.**Hebrews 1:14
14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Revelation 5:8
8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Revelation 8:3-4
3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.
E
E.E.N.S
Guest
Are you familiar with the Protestant scholar Albert C. Sundberg? He is the author of the book called “The Old Testament of the Early Church” (Harvard U Press). It’s probably out of print, but still available in libraries and used book stores. It does not talk about the development of the New Testament canon, but it does illustrate conclusively that the Protestant (and modern Jewish) Old Testament is not the Old Testament of the early Church --that the early Church recognized the all the books in the present Catholic (and Eastern Orthodox) OT canon. And, again, this is a PROTESTANT scholar admitting this --in fact, he proves it; and no one has been able to refute him.
As for the New Testament, here are the facts. Perhaps he would like to look them up. If he does so, he will see that they are all true:
- Before A.D. 397, each Apostle-founded city-church (or metropolitanate / patriarchate) had its own (different) NT canon. Some city-churches excluded certain books that are in our present NT canon (e.g. James, Jude, 2 Peter, Hebrews, 2 & 3 John, and Revelation). Other city-churches included certain books that are excluded from our present NT canon (e.g. The Epistle of Barnabas, the Revelation of Peter, the Gospel to the Hebrews, 1 Clement to the Corinthians, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Protoevangelium of James, etc.). And there were also other early Christian writings which none of the Apostle-founded city-churches accepted, but which were only used by heretical sects which could not trace themselves back to the Apostles (e.g. the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Philip, etc.).
- The reason why different Apostle-founded city-churches possessed different Biblical canons was because each of these city-churches (or metropolitanates / patriarchates) possessed their own distinct, native liturgical traditions (that is, distinct styles of worship). While they all agreed with each other in terms of orthodox doctrine, they did not worship the same exact ways. Rather, as in the modern Catholic Church, which consists of over 24 separate liturgical rites (e.g. the Roman rite, the Byzantine rite, the Antiochian rite, the Coptic rite, the Armenian rite, etc.), each of the early city-churches (or metropolitanates / patriarchates) worshipped according to it own native culture, adapting the celebration of the Eucharist (as instituted by Christ) to suit and speak to this own native culture. And, since each of the city-churches (or metropolitanates / patriarchates) had its own native liturgical traditions, this also meant that each of these city-churches (or metropolitanates / patriarchates) possessed its own native liturgical calendar, meaning that different city-churches celebrated certain Christian feast days on different dates (e.g. the feast of Easter --the celebration of the Lord’s Resurrection --was not celebrated on the same date in Rome as it was in Ephesus, etc.). So, what does this have to do with the Biblical canon?? Well, quite simply, the liturgical traditions of a particular church dictated the Biblical canon of that particular church because a church’s “canon” merely meant those books that were considered fit for reading at the liturgy --that is, at Sunday Mass. For ancient Christians, “canon” did not mean that these books are inspired whereas other books are not. On the contrary, it was quite possible (in the understanding of the early Church) for a book to be inspired by God, yet not “canonical.” So, if a book was excluded from the canon of a particular city-church, it DID NOT mean that this church rejected this book’s Divine inspiration. Rather, it merely meant that this particular book (e.g. the Epistle of James) was not used in the yearly, liturgical READINGS of that particular city-church. For, there were only so many feast days throughout the year (and so only so many public liturgies); and this limited the number of books which would be used for liturgical readings within a given city-church. This is why the early city-churches all had different canons.
E
E.E.N.S
Guest
(cont’d…)
- But, by the late 300’s, all this began to change. The Church had just succeeded in putting down the Arian heresy, which had disturbed the Church’s universal unity from A.D. 320 until A.D. 381. Now, during the Arian controversy, the Arians would often cite various books that were used in the city-churches to support their heretical beliefs. So, in order to make sure such heretics never had the oppotunity to do anything like this again, Pope St. Damasus I called for the creation of a UNIVERSAL canon of Scripture, which would be used in common by all the city-churches. He did this at a synod held in Rome in A.D. 382. And, at that time, he put forward a proposed canon, which was a synthesis of the canons used by the Patriarchate of Rome and the Patriarchate of Alexandria --Alexandria being the second ranking see of the universal Church (after Rome), and the primate in the East. Pope Damasus then submitted this canon to the bishops of North Africa, so that they could put it to the test and debate it. And the reason that Damasus sent it to the N. African bishops is three-fold: a) N. Africa had the most bishops per capita in the world at the time; and so a consensus among them would reflect the consensus of all bishops everywhere. b) The Church in N. Africa traditionally met twice a year in a regional council, held either at Hippo or at Carthage; and this would help to foster the debate; and c) The N. African bishops were known for their Biblical scholarship and had many great scholars among them (e.g. St. Augustine of Hippo). And so, the Africans took up the challenge and began to debate the canon --that is, to decide which books should be used in the liturgies of the churches and which books should not. Their criterion for deciding this was to go over each book, verse by verse, and to make sure that it agreed with the substance of the Catholic Faith that these CATHOLIC bishops believed in. And this, of course took some time. But, by 393, at the Council of Hippo, the first serious debate took place. It tentatively ratified the canon submitted by Pope Damasus back in A.D. 382, but there were still certain objections. These objections were ultimately addressed and dispelled by the Council of Carthate in A.D. 397. At this time, our present NT canon (and Catholic *OT *canon) was officially defined, and the debate came to an end. Here, it should be noted that the Epistle to the Hebrews and the Book of Revelation were held in serious dispute, and they were almost rejected. It was only the tireless arguments of St. Augustine of Hippo that got them included.
- With the canon finally decided at the Council of Carthage (A.D. 397), the African bishops submitted their Carthaginian canon to Rome for final ratification. This ratification came in about A.D. 401, when Pope St. Innocent I officially sanctioned the Carthaginian canon, and sent it to the bishops of Spain, Gaul, Britain, and Illyria for observation. Pope Innocent also sent it to the Patriarchate of Alexandria in Egypt (the Church’s second see), which immediately accepted it and sent it to all the other bishops of the East. However, in the Patriarchate of Antioch (the Church’s third see), there was an obstacle to implementing it. Antioch, at this time, was torn by an internal schism, with two Catholic bishops both claiming to be the true Patriarch of Antioch. This schism dragged on for a long time, and it effected many churches in Asia Minor, Syria, Palestine, and Mesopotamia. It also effected the imperial capital of Constantinople. And, because of this, the implementation of the Carthaginian canon (our present Biblical canon) was delayed in these regions for many centuries. Indeed, it was only in A.D. 787, at the Ecumenical Council of Nicaea II, that these Eastern churches finally accepted the Carthaginian canon of the Bible --that is, our present Biblical canon.
A
avflf
Guest
And I would be happy for you. I personally do not expect my prayers to be presented to God in such a way … but then I don’t pray, so it would be a miracle for some old Billy to get them in his soup bowl.If my prayers end up in a bowl of one of the elders, being presented to HIm amidst the worship of holy angels, how happy am I !
As I do not consider the Jewish God Jehovah to be anything else than a God made in the image of the Jew I have no reason to pray to him. The Creator of the universe, the one that is truly omniscient does not require prayer for It knows your inner most thoughts and desires before you express them. That’s my GOD.
- Status