The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

[E.E.N.S]

And I would be happy for you. I personally do not expect my prayers to be presented to God in such a way … but then I don’t pray, so it would be a miracle for some old Billy to get them in his soup bowl. As I do not consider the Jewish God Jehovah to be anything else than a God made in the image of the Jew I have no reason to pray to him. The Creator of the universe, the one that is truly omniscient does not require prayer for It knows your inner most thoughts and desires before you express them. That’s my GOD.

I’m confused, maybe I missed something, but I was under the impression that you were Christian? No?

 

[avflf]

Great post E.E.N.S. That indeed is the way it developed. The OT used by the Early Church was, in fact, the Septuagint and one finds that Paul’s quotes on the OT are from this translation and not the Masoretic text. And the extra books were included in the Greek version…

3) But, by the late 300’s, all this began to change. The Church had just succeeded in putting down the Arian heresy, which had disturbed the Church’s universal unity from A.D. 320 until A.D. 381. Now, during the Arian controversy, the Arians would often cite various books that were used in the city-churches to support their heretical beliefs. So, in order to make sure such heretics never had the oppotunity to do anything like this again, Pope St. Damasus I called for the creation of a UNIVERSAL canon of Scripture, which would be used in common by all the city-churches.

It appears from this that the predominant reason for forming an universal Canon was to prevent the so-called heretics from a base from where to argue their beliefs, rather than to find really inspired Scriptures, the “Word of God” as you name them. I say “so-called heretics” because had Arianism won it would be the Catholics that would now be called heretics. But Catholicism won preeminence and all other beliefs became heretic, and that same label has been, and still is, applied to Protestants.

 

[avflf]

I’m confused, maybe I missed something, but I was under the impression that you were Christian? No?

See how easy it is to believe in something that is not true. Same as your faith in the Bible. No, I cannot be considered a Christian seeing I don’t believe in the Jewish Book.

 

[justasking4]

I have not read all the posts; my apologies. Nevertheless, I will say something.

Try meditating on the following scripture passages as it relates to Saints in Heavan/Purgatory.

The problem with these quotes is that not one of them speaks of any kind communication between them and us. Secondly, there is not one verse in the entire NT that we are ever exhorted to pray to a creature.

 

[justasking4]

Well, at least we are in agreement about something! Now, by what authority or ability was the early church able to accomplish this?

The church used various criteria’ to determine which books were to be in the canon.

Quote:
The source of the teaching about praying to the saints is the same source that gave you that Bible. If you disregard Sacred Tradition, then you need to disregard your Bible too!

It is not an assumption. This is part of the incarnational principle. There is no separation between Christ, and His Bride. He gave His HS to the Church, and it is that HS that guides the church into all truth. The Canon is one of those truths. The Communion of Saints is another.

Where in scripture is it taught that "there is no separation between Christ and His bride?

Quote:
On the contrary! If you do not accept the testimony of those men about the authenticity of the scripture, then you are only left with your OWN speculation!

God working through the Apostolic Authority, which He established prior to His ascension. If they got the canon right, and the Nicene creed right, and the person and work of Jesus right, how do you discern which teachings handed down from the Apostles they did not get right? there ARE no Catholic teachings that contradict the bible.

This is not true that there are no catholic teachings that contradict the Bible. There are quite a number. Praying to dead saints is one. As I’ve said before there is no such teaching for it in the Scriptures. All correct prayers in the Bible are only to God and never to creatures.

The Scriptures, which I regard as inspired and infallible, testify that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, therefore, I can confidently rely on the Church.

This still does not mean a church cannot teach falsely. This is not a promise that a church cannot err in its teachings. This verse does not mean that.

However you say it, the truth is what it is held up by the Church. Since there was no NT at the time this was written, all the truth was present in Sacred Tradition. It was in the preaching of the Apostles, held by the Church, that gave birth to the written word. The scriptures reflect sufficiency of those teachings unto salvation, but they were never intended to be the full revelation of divine truth, which was given completely orally by Jesus to the Apostles. The Sacred Traditions, from which the scriptures were written, have been preserved faithfullly, just like the scripture, as the Apostles taught them. Among these Sacred Traditions are prayers to the saints.

Where is the evidence that the apostles by some kind of oral tradition taught people to pray to saints?

Quote:
Jesus promised that He would send HIs spirit to guide the Church into all truth and I believe that He is able to keep his promises!

That He did. However, He never promised that the false teachers would not come into the church and decieve many with their teachings.

What is the church, if not the body of disciples?
Jesus said He would be with them until the end of the age. We are still here, so the end has not come yet!

 

[justasking4]

Yes they do!

1 Timothy 2

1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

Hebrews 12
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

James 5:16

16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Matthew 5:44
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and **pray for them **which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Romans 15:30

30Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ’s sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

2 Corinthians 9

12For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;

13Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;

14And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you.

**15Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.**Hebrews 1:14

14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Revelation 5:8
8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 8:3-4

3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

4And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.

Look at the context for these passages which will show that none of these passages are speaking about any praying to a saint.

 

[guanophore]

The problem with these quotes is that not one of them speaks of any kind communication between them and us. Secondly, there is not one verse in the entire NT that we are ever exhorted to pray to a creature.

You are just misunderstanding the use of the word “prayer”. All it means is 'justasking".

It is the same as saying to my neighbore “pray take care of my cats while I am away, will you?”

 

[guanophore]

The church used various criteria’ to determine which books were to be in the canon.

Well, I can agree with you on this point. But my question was, by what authority did they do so?**

Where in scripture is it taught that "there is no separation between Christ and His bride?

John 17:22-26
22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory which thou hast given me in thy love for me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, the world has not known thee, but I have known thee; and these know that thou hast sent me. 26 I made known to them thy name, and I will make it known, that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them."

This is not true that there are no catholic teachings that contradict the Bible. There are quite a number. Praying to dead saints is one. As I’ve said before there is no such teaching for it in the Scriptures. All correct prayers in the Bible are only to God and never to creatures.

You are just misunderstanding the use of the word “prayer”. Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: pray
Pronunciation: \ˈprā\
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French prier, praer, preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frāga question, frāgēn to ask, Sanskrit pṛcchati he asks
Date: 13th century
transitive verb
1 : entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1 : to make a request in a humble manner

It does not mean “worship”, “adore” or other types of prayer that are only made to God. It is just asking for intercession.

You are hindered by your misunderstanding that scripture contains all divine truth. All we do is ask their intercession. Scripture does not distinguish between saints that are still present, and saints who have passed on. They are not dead. They are all part of the living Body of Christ. Jesus does not have “dead” members of His Body!

Quote:
The Scriptures, which I regard as inspired and infallible, testify that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, therefore, I can confidently rely on the Church.

This still does not mean a church cannot teach falsely. This is not a promise that a church cannot err in its teachings. This verse does not mean that.

**

No, but there are other passages that speak about that. Jesus promised to preserve the Apostles in all truth.

Quote:
However you say it, the truth is what it is held up by the Church. Since there was no NT at the time this was written, all the truth was present in Sacred Tradition. It was in the preaching of the Apostles, held by the Church, that gave birth to the written word. The scriptures reflect sufficiency of those teachings unto salvation, but they were never intended to be the full revelation of divine truth, which was given completely orally by Jesus to the Apostles. The Sacred Traditions, from which the scriptures were written, have been preserved faithfullly, just like the scripture, as the Apostles taught them. Among these Sacred Traditions are prayers to the saints.

Where is the evidence that the apostles by some kind of oral tradition taught people to pray to saints?

In the earliest liturgies we have there are prayers to the saints. They are also marked on the walls of the catacombs and tombs of Christians dating back to the first century. “Peter and Paul, pray for us”.

You have to keep in mind that people did not start getting martyred until after most of the NT was written, so there were not any Apostles already in heaven for intercessions to be made to them.

Jesus promised that He would send HIs spirit to guide the Church into all truth and I believe that He is able to keep his promises!

That He did. However, He never promised that the false teachers would not come into the church and decieve many with their teachings.

Very true. this is why everything is not only compared to scripture, but also the Apostolic Teaching. Since we have prayers to the saints dating back to the first liturgies, we know these teachings are authentic.

 

[justasking4]

What verse is it that tells us we are to pray to God alone ? I know of quite a few verses dealing with eternal life, sharing in God’s glory, and being alive in Christ, but I don’t recall a verse saying that we are to only pray to God.

There are a couple of ways to answer this. For one all right prayers are addressed directly to God. See the Psalms for example. Secondly, there is no exhortation-teaching that we are ever to appeal to a created being in prayer.

The big problem most non-Catholics/Orthodox have with the veneration of and prayers to the Saints is that they lack the proper sense and form of worship contained in the mass, so they have come to equate “prayer” with “worship” because that is as close as they can get. The other problem they have is that most of them (IMHO) lack a proper sense of the Holiness and Deity of God.

I think that the problem with this doctrine is that people do not understand the Scriptures well or at all. In every case i have seen people try to use the scriptures to defend praying to the saints as biblical fail to take the context of these verses into account. It may look on the surface that praying to saints or Mary is biblical but when you look at the context it does not support it at all.

 

[runandsew]

I think that the problem with this doctrine is that people do not understand the Scriptures well or at all. In every case i have seen people try to use the scriptures to defend praying to the saints as biblical fail to take the context of these verses into account. It may look on the surface that praying to saints or Mary is biblical but when you look at the context it does not support it at all.

I would have to say that people who defend praying to the saints do understand the scriptures. They just don’t accept your personal interpretation of Scripture which is unhistorical in Christianity.

I would also have to say that the church fathers understood Scripture and they supported this doctrine.

Hermas
“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Clement of Alexandria
“In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Origen
“But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Cyprian of Carthage
“Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

Methodius
“Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

“Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid.).

“And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’” (ibid.).

Cyril of Jerusalem
"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Hilary of Poitiers
“To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting” (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).

Ephraim the Syrian
“You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him” (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).

“Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day” (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).

 

[runandsew]

The Liturgy of St. Basil
“By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name” (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).

Pectorius
“Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]” (Epitaph of Pectorius [A.D. 375]).

Gregory of Nazianz
“May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand” (Orations 17[24] [A.D. 380]).

"Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . " (ibid., 18:4).

Gregory of Nyssa
“[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom” (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).

John Chrysostom
“He that wears the purple * . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead” (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

“When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]” (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).

Jerome
“You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?” (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

Augustine
“A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers” (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

“There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended” (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

“At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps” (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).

“Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ” (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).*

 

[onenow1]

Hi, Just a Verse or two, to really think on and discern.

Quote=JAK4,I think that the problem with this doctrine is that people do not understand the Scriptures well or at all. In every case I have seen people try to use the scriptures to defend praying to the saints as biblical fail to take the context of these verses into account. It may look on the surface that praying to saints or Mary is biblical but when you look at the context it does not support it at all.

1 John 3: 2
Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Matt !7;
1 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart.
2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light.
3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli’jah, talking with him.

JAK4, Maybe your arguement is with Jesus, talking to Moses and Elijah ?

Peace, OneNow1

 

[guanophore]

There are a couple of ways to answer this. For one all right prayers are addressed directly to God. See the Psalms for example. Secondly, there is no exhortation-teaching that we are ever to appeal to a created being in prayer.

I think that the problem with this doctrine is that people do not understand the Scriptures well or at all. In every case i have seen people try to use the scriptures to defend praying to the saints as biblical fail to take the context of these verses into account. It may look on the surface that praying to saints or Mary is biblical but when you look at the context it does not support it at all.

I think you are just misunderstanding the way the word “prayer” is used. It is not worship, adoration, or any of those things reserved for God. It is just a request for intercession. That is all.

 

[Milliardo]

But just because we can’t be separated, doesn’t give us permission to “pray” to people gone on to heaven.

Prayer is simply the means to communicate with the heavenly hosts; it is akin to writing letter. We write letters to various people—to politicians, friends, businessmen, etc. A letter addressed to the President would obviously not be the same as one addressed to your friend. So that’s how prayer is. Worship to God then is not applicable to praying to the saints–the mindframe of the person directing his worship to God would be different from when he prays to a saint. Go back then to writing letters–your mindset would be different when you write to the President, and another when you write to your friend. Since the saints are our brothers and sisters in Christ, and we are all, as you affirm, united to them through Christ, how do you think we should talk, as it is, to them?

Miriam and the “saints” cannot give ACCESS to God because they did not EARN this right on the cross.

This is simply silly, because if we take this seriously, then we have no right as well to pray for one another, since we did not earn that right as well. And yet, you have access to God, right? How come you have access to God through prayer, imperfectly united as you are with Him since you are still here on Earth, and the saints don’t when they are perfectly united with Him in heaven?

 

[Zooey]

The reason I ask is because it seems that Catholics are under the impression that only Catholic saints can go to heaven.

Piffle!! Pfui!! Pshaw!!! Who on earth ever is filling your head with such faradiddles???
You clearly don’t even know what a saint is!!

But this is not correct. When the NT and OT speak of “saints” the exact definition in the Greek and Hebrew is … “God’s people”.

And who told you this one???

Let’s see what God says about this.

No mortal has ever EARNED the right to hear or answer prayer because they didn’t EARN this on the cross. Christ alone EARNED it and for this reason is our High Priest and Mediator.

All these years, I have been reading my Bible. I have read it in English, I have read it in Latin, I have read it in Dutch/Netherlandic…Where do ye find this wee bit of nonsense, lassie???
For in my Bible, we are told to pray & intercede for one another!!! Are ye, then, telling me, I have to be crucified in order to* pray*???
[SIGN]Pfui!!! And again I say, Pfui!!![/SIGN]

Okay, good point of view. However, it doesn’t match the Words of Christ and the Apostles. Let’s see what THEY said about it:

1st Tim 2:5: For there is ONE God and ONE Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus…

Ephs 2:18: For through Him we have ACCESS by one Spirit to the Father.

John 14:14: Ask anything in MY NAME and I will do it.

These are just 3 of 100 instructions in the NT concerning how we should play and to whom. And nowhere is it written that we are allowed to pray to the deceased or Miriam … for the simple reason they did not EARN that right on the cross.

Ah… ye puir wee lassie, so taken up w’some wee man’s notion of the Bible, ye dinnae know what it says anymore…

 

[fellowChristian]

Why Do Catholics Pray to Saints?
By Matt1618

One may point to 1 Timothy 2:5 as a proof text against anyone praying to Saints in heaven in order for them to pray for us on earth. After all, it does say:

“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”.

Doesn’t it say as clear as day here, that no one can get in-between man and God, and by praying to saints, are Catholics violating what it so clearly teaches here? Well, in the first place commons sense tells us that if the Catholic position violates it, so does the Protestant practice of praying for others. After all, Protestants as much as Catholics always intervene by praying not only for themselves, but other people, all the time. When one asks them to pray for them, Do they say to one another “How dare you pray for one another all, there is only one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ!!!” No, Protestants as well as Catholics intercede for others all the time, and it is especially urged in the Bible. When Catholics pray to Saints, they are only asking them to pray for them. Even the immediate context of 1 Timothy 2 shows the need for Christians to pray for others, exactly as Catholicism teaches. Let us look at the immediately preceding verses of 1 Tim. 2:

1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,
2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
3This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

So in the immediate context Paul urges people to pray for others. It is good and pleasing to God that people intercede on the behalf of others. So obviously this text does not mean people should not be able to intercede for others. When we pray to Saints, we are only asking them to pray for us. Next, can Saints pray for us in heaven? What does the bible say?

Are there any witnesses in heaven of us? Paul tells us:

Hebrews 12:1 - Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.

Do we come only to God or do we also come to the assembly of Saints in heaven as well?

Hebrews 12:22 But YE ARE COME UNTO mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 12:23 To the general assembly and CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, AND TO THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT, 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.

Paul says yes.
He says we come directly not only to God, but to an assembly of Saints in heaven (The just men made perfect) exactly in the context of Jesus being the mediator!. Are we supposed to ignore them? The Bible says no!! Jesus is indeed the one and unique mediator. However, it is indeed him as a mediator, that makes all other mediation possible.

After all, Jesus is the supreme judge (John 5:27, 9:39; Rom. 14:10; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:1), yet Christians are called to share in Christ’s judgeship. They will be judges in heaven, even judging the angels (Mt. 19:28; Luke 22:30; 1 Cor. 6:2-3). Jesus is the king of the universe (Mk. 15:32; 1 Tim. 1:17, 6:15, Rev. 15:3, 17:14, 19:16), but he shares his kingship with all Christians, who in heaven will wear crowns, sit on thrones, and reign as kings alongside Jesus (Rev. 4:4, 10) – but will always be subordinate to him. Notice the promises that God makes (Rev. 3:21):

I will give the victor the right to sit with me on my throne as I myself first won the victory and sit with my Father on his throne.

Jesus is the one and only shepherd of the flock the Chruch (John 10:16), yet in a subordinate way he shares his shepherdhood in a subordinate way with others, beginning with Peter (John 21:15-17) and extends it later to others (Eph. 4:11).Pat Madrid, Any Friend of God is a Friend of Mine , Basilica Press, 1996, pages 58, 59.

Thus, in the same way that Christ is unique and the source of all these things, he still uses people to in a subordinate way to share in his work.

Do the saints pray in heaven? The book of Revelation tells us:

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the PRAYERS OF SAINTS.

matt1618.freeyellow.com/saints.html

 

[fellowChristian]

Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with THE PRAYERS OF ALL SAINTS upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.

Obviously they do pray, and as we saw in Hebrews we come to these saints, who we see intercede for us.

Is there more evidence that the Saints are aware of what is going on at earth, and do they ask for justice?:

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Revelation 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like unto this great city! 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 18:20 Rejoice over her, [thou] heaven, and [ye] holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

So we have further evidence that the Saints in heaven are aware of what is going on in earth, and they specifically pray for things that go on in earth. We must remember that Saints in heaven are not bound by time and space as we are. In eternity, 1 John 3:2 tells us:

Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

There is only one body, the Church. The church is not one church in heaven as opposed to one church on earth. The one church is intimately connected with each other (remember the image of the vine and the branches in John 15). And those in heaven are just men made perfect. As the body is called to love each other, are the saints in heaven, even though they are aware of what is going on in earth, according to scripture just given, careless as to what is going on in the lives of those on earth? Of course not!!! Christ calls perfected people to love the rest of the body. I can be confident that they will intercede for those on earth. What does it profit? James explains:

James 5:16 “The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” Those in heaven are perfectly righteous, and their prayers are efficacious. How can one ignore them?

Why can’t I just say, I don’t need those Saints in heaven to pray for us, I can go directly to God. (BTW, Catholics also do pray directly to God.) Why can’t I say I really don’t need the rest of the Church? What does Paul say?

1 Cor. 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many. 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 12:17 If the whole body [were] an eye, where [were] the hearing? If the whole [were] hearing, where [were] the smelling? 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 12:19 And if they were all one member, where [were] the body? 12:20 But now [are they] many members, yet but one body. 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

As an eye, I cannot say to the hand, I do not need you. However, those who are against praying to the saints, do exactly that by neglecting the rest of the body of Christ.

For a more in-depth discussion of the issue of praying to Saints, I suggest you get the book, “Any Friend of God’s is a Friend of Mine,” by Pat Madrid, which can be purchased at at a great price here: Click here.

 

[fellowChristian]

Why do Catholics pray to saints when they can go straight to God? Catholics ask the saints to mediate for them. One reason is that the saints are closer to God then we are here on earth. Let us say there is a job you want in a certain company and you know someone who is a friend of the Boss who is hiring. Would you go directly to the Boss or would you rather your friend speak about you to the Boss first? How about another example, there is always that certain person you know, whether it be your pastor, priest, or friend, whom you always feel that their prayers are stronger for what ever reason, and when you ask them to pray for your important need, you feel a confidence that God will surely hear your request now. This is the same reasoning that Catholics use when they ask a saint to help them pray for a certain intention. You know that the saints prayers are a lot stronger than your own because they are perfected and in Heaven with God.

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Catholics Worship saints? Just because saints are very special in the Catholic Church does not mean that they are worshiped. Catholics do not worship saints. A saint is someone who has lived their life so perfectly in the service of God that they changed others around them while they were alive on earth. Their example was exemplary. If their life was so exemplary on earth, they can only be perfected to the utmost in heaven. Catholics do ask saints for intercessory prayers. For example, if your dad is dying, you may ask members of your church to pray for him. Why is this accepted? Why can we ask others to pray for us on earth, but cannot ask those who are far more perfect than us mortals, to pray for us in heaven? Ok, I know what you are going to say…there is no one in heaven. Again, this is not true; let us look at some more Bible verses to get to the truth.

Lk 23: 43 - Jesus said to the good thief: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Looks like someone is up there with Jesus…)

Lk 9:29-30 - Peter, James, and John accompanied Jesus: And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias. (Hey, what are Moses and Elias doing…they are supposed to be dead!)

Everyone is called to be a saint and we must work very hard in perfecting our faults and loving our neighbors. What could possibly be wrong with having perfected role models in heaven?

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Why do Catholics have Relics of Saints? Many miracles and cures are attributed to relics, not because they have a power of their own, but because of the holiness of the individual they represented. Let us look at several Bible verses:

(Mt. 9:20-21;22) - And behold, a woman which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment…and the woman was made whole from that hour. (It was not the garment that made this woman well but the holiness of Jesus).

(Mt. 9:20-21;22) - …And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.

(Acts 19:11-12) - And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

(Acts 5:15-16) - Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them (Even Peter’s shadow was enough to heal those who were sick. It was not Peter that healed those in which his shadow was cast, but it was God working through Peter).
anawim.pair.com/CATHOLICS/SAINTS.htm

 

[fellowChristian]

Read This
catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

 

[rayne89]

Hi, how are you? When you say “saints” are you talking about “all of God’s people” … or just the Catholic saints?

The reason I ask is because it seems that Catholics are under the impression that only Catholic saints can go to heaven.

If you are saying Catholics believe that only the persons declared by the church as saints are in heaven that would not be Catholic teaching -and you have the wrong impression. Anyone in heaven is a saint and we certainly don’t know the names of all who are in heaven.