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Scottgun
Guest
Awesome site! Thanks!
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st_felicity
Guest
Saints aren’t “dead.” So when we pray to saints, we are not communicating with the dead.
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guanophore
Guest
True. there is no “direct reference” to the Trinity either, but we understand that it is implied.
A
avflf
Guest
I can also say that it is not openly forbidden “but we understand that it is implied”
You tend to accept too much “implication” to back your beliefs. The Trinity is not directly referenced simply because it does not exist.
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
Peter prayed to Tabitah when she was dead in Acts and she arose from the dead so it had to be God’s will for Peter to pray for her when she was dead.
If God was a Sola Scripturaist He would have let Tabitha remain dead to show that Peter was doing a wicked thing.
Thanks be to God that He wasn’t a Sola Scripturaist and let her here Peter’s prayer and live!
Not praying to the saints is so Dead! Satan likes Dead Faith!
If God was a Sola Scripturaist He would have let Tabitha remain dead to show that Peter was doing a wicked thing.
Thanks be to God that He wasn’t a Sola Scripturaist and let her here Peter’s prayer and live!
Not praying to the saints is so Dead! Satan likes Dead Faith!
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
Saying so doesn’t make it so. We give links. You do not. Not complicated.
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Mimi
Guest
Also, “The prayers of a righteous man avails much”.
Who are more righteous than those who have attained Heaven, i.e., the Saints? They are our heroes; they gave everything up for the sake of the Kingdom. Isn’t that what Christ did?
They are more alive in Christ (with Him in Heaven) than we are here, trapped in a temporal existence. (That’s from one of Scott Hahn’s tapes, and he probably got it from someplace else.)
Mimi
M
Man
Guest
This “essay” written not to someone in particular, but inspired by the writing of St. Jerome, for all the faithful:
The first question to ask is:
Do you believe that we go to Heaven when we die?
If the answer is “Not until the Kingdom of Heaven comes.” Then we deal with “millennialism.” It is likely that they believe the “fringe” modern view of the “rapture” and so forth. Essentially insinuating that men are taken to heaven and meet God as second time before he comes a third time to set up His Kingdom. This is not the Revelation as we know it. It is a recent determination.
We will return here in a moment.
If they do believe that we go to Heaven, or to Hell when we die, then we can address them much as St. Jerome addressed Vigilantius:
“if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?” (Against Vigilantius 6 [c. 406 AD]).
Thus, we ask that lord St. Peter ask our Lord and God Jesus Christ with whom He shares His Heavenly banquet (as sitting beside Him) to ask our Lord with us, for that which is just. It is a proud man indeed who thinks his prayer is of greater value than St. Peter’s. For we raise up our prayers and (so often) our minds are on the things of men, and our hearts are filled with all manner of sexism, over tolerance, and bias.
Or do you allow Jesus alone freedom, but those that are His brothers and in a very direct way members “of His body” you chain in Heavenly prison. Such a thing would not exist. The student can become like the Teacher.
Lo, this discussion isn’t actually about praying to the Saints, it is about the nature of the Church itself. It is about the pride of man. The document I quoted was written in 406AD, it contains important history and philosophy, and it, along with other things of that time period are in the deposit of faith, which some in the Magesterium (members of the Church) study, that we may have an understanding of the Traditions of the Church that are handed down to us.
And so we come to Sola Scriptura (the Bible alone) philosophy, upon which much of Protestantism is founded. It is an ideal that never exists. For, in all the Protestant churches they too make up their own deposit of faith determined by the doctrine that the human founder decided upon. He decided what to keep (the Trinity) and what to leave out (the Saints). You will find this doctrine on websites across the internet and in little pamphlets at various churches. The little pamphlet of doctrine and dogma which the participants of that particular church can use to understand the Bible. The founder having determined what to add and what to subtract.
And this leads us into… relativism. Which church is right then? Your church? Somehow, your church has determined the correct interpretations, despite the vast array of church philosophies available, it is yours that is correct? Or all of them are correct? The seventh day adventists are correct, or the Baptists, or the Lutheran, or the Methodists. Are they one church though they disagree? A kingdom divided? Or, are they all wrong, and one of the greatest wrongs of all, that of creating continued discord among Christianity. (Not that divine province plays no role - perhaps making the most of the situation - I won’t/can’t go into free will here).
Instead, we choose believe in the humble priest, who prevents himself for discernment as a lay person, for another to determine if he is even called to ministry. Then, slowly rises through the church, and eventually becomes the Holy Father. Surely this is a finer choice than one who has determined to create with his own hands what God has made written.
I a convert.
An essay.
Love,
David
Consider:
Revelation 19:15. And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp two-edged sword, that with it he may strike the nations. And he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God the Almighty.
The first question to ask is:
Do you believe that we go to Heaven when we die?
If the answer is “Not until the Kingdom of Heaven comes.” Then we deal with “millennialism.” It is likely that they believe the “fringe” modern view of the “rapture” and so forth. Essentially insinuating that men are taken to heaven and meet God as second time before he comes a third time to set up His Kingdom. This is not the Revelation as we know it. It is a recent determination.
We will return here in a moment.
If they do believe that we go to Heaven, or to Hell when we die, then we can address them much as St. Jerome addressed Vigilantius:
“if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?” (Against Vigilantius 6 [c. 406 AD]).
Thus, we ask that lord St. Peter ask our Lord and God Jesus Christ with whom He shares His Heavenly banquet (as sitting beside Him) to ask our Lord with us, for that which is just. It is a proud man indeed who thinks his prayer is of greater value than St. Peter’s. For we raise up our prayers and (so often) our minds are on the things of men, and our hearts are filled with all manner of sexism, over tolerance, and bias.
Or do you allow Jesus alone freedom, but those that are His brothers and in a very direct way members “of His body” you chain in Heavenly prison. Such a thing would not exist. The student can become like the Teacher.
Lo, this discussion isn’t actually about praying to the Saints, it is about the nature of the Church itself. It is about the pride of man. The document I quoted was written in 406AD, it contains important history and philosophy, and it, along with other things of that time period are in the deposit of faith, which some in the Magesterium (members of the Church) study, that we may have an understanding of the Traditions of the Church that are handed down to us.
And so we come to Sola Scriptura (the Bible alone) philosophy, upon which much of Protestantism is founded. It is an ideal that never exists. For, in all the Protestant churches they too make up their own deposit of faith determined by the doctrine that the human founder decided upon. He decided what to keep (the Trinity) and what to leave out (the Saints). You will find this doctrine on websites across the internet and in little pamphlets at various churches. The little pamphlet of doctrine and dogma which the participants of that particular church can use to understand the Bible. The founder having determined what to add and what to subtract.
And this leads us into… relativism. Which church is right then? Your church? Somehow, your church has determined the correct interpretations, despite the vast array of church philosophies available, it is yours that is correct? Or all of them are correct? The seventh day adventists are correct, or the Baptists, or the Lutheran, or the Methodists. Are they one church though they disagree? A kingdom divided? Or, are they all wrong, and one of the greatest wrongs of all, that of creating continued discord among Christianity. (Not that divine province plays no role - perhaps making the most of the situation - I won’t/can’t go into free will here).
Instead, we choose believe in the humble priest, who prevents himself for discernment as a lay person, for another to determine if he is even called to ministry. Then, slowly rises through the church, and eventually becomes the Holy Father. Surely this is a finer choice than one who has determined to create with his own hands what God has made written.
I a convert.
An essay.
Love,
David
Consider:
Revelation 19:15. And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp two-edged sword, that with it he may strike the nations. And he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God the Almighty.
M
Milliardo
Guest
Where is it implied then? As I’ve stated, you’ll have to find it, either implicitly or explicitly.
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icxc_nika
Guest
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
2 Thessalonians 2:14-16
Good enough?
I
icxc_nika
Guest
Not to get off topic, but there have been many Eastern See’s that have not codified the biblical canon. They never felt the need to.
Also as mentioned earlier, the canon has changed in the western church, on several occasions, as is/was their right to do so.
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icxc_nika
Guest
Unfortunately for you, this is the very definition of making God in our own image. I’d be careful with this.As I do not consider the Jewish God Jehovah to be anything else than a God made in the image of the Jew I have no reason to pray to him. The Creator of the universe, the one that is truly omniscient does not require prayer for It knows your inner most thoughts and desires before you express them. That’s my GOD.
M
MariaG
Guest
So you believe that God allowed men to record error in Scripture? If you believe scripture is in error, and not just your interpretation of it, how do you decided which parts of scripture are in error and which are not?
Sadly though, this would be a new thread but I would certainly be interested in this assuming that this has not already been covered. Went on vacation and am trying to catch up to the current posts
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avflf
Guest
Actually, MariaG when Paul asked for prayer for himself and his ministry he meant that they should pray to God thru Christ. Not to pray to Mary or to Tom, **** and Harry. There is a slight difference there.So you believe that God allowed men to record error in Scripture? If you believe scripture is in error, and not just your interpretation of it, how do you decided which parts of scripture are in error and which are not?
As to the Scriptures being in error there is enough internal evidence that they were NOT written under any other inspiration but human
M
MariaG
Guest
Hi, welcome to the forums.
Since However, I do not believe that is the case, but you just have some severe misconceptions on exactly what Catholic Christians believe.
As for Christ and the apostles being the final authority, who is the final interpreter of what Christ and the apostles taught?
But the answer to this should be a thread to itself
I will be happy to start one if you so desire.
Again, purgatory is a thread in and of itself. Maybe you should read what purgatory IS, and understand what the Catholic teaching of what purgatory is (and isn’t) before quoting scripture about whether or not purgatory is even possible? Below is a link to some basics. Why not take the time to read it and start a new thread on purgatory to discuss more?
Purgatory
Again, maybe you should learn what the Catholic Church actually teaches and does instead of saying things that we actually agree with and presenting a false dichotomy
Unfortunenately, my time is up, and I have yet to reach the end of this thread. If you have already started to research these things more thoroughly and said so, please accept my apologies for bringing it up again.
Until then, I encourage you to stick around and start asking QUESTIONS about what we believe instead of making statements of what you think Catholic Christians believe.
God Bless,
Maria
First, thing. Let’s address this. Catholics are Christians. As for not recognizing any Catholic teachings whatsoever, that is incorrect, unless of course you are not really a Christian at all.
Since However, I do not believe that is the case, but you just have some severe misconceptions on exactly what Catholic Christians believe.
As for Christ and the apostles being the final authority, who is the final interpreter of what Christ and the apostles taught?
But the answer to this should be a thread to itself
I will be happy to start one if you so desire. Again, purgatory is a thread in and of itself. Maybe you should read what purgatory IS, and understand what the Catholic teaching of what purgatory is (and isn’t) before quoting scripture about whether or not purgatory is even possible? Below is a link to some basics. Why not take the time to read it and start a new thread on purgatory to discuss more?Purgatory
I agree. Prayer TO dead people as though they are gods is idolatry and is strictly forbidden by the Catholic Church. This is not what is happening with asking the Saints in heaven to pray for us.
Again, maybe you should learn what the Catholic Church actually teaches and does instead of saying things that we actually agree with and presenting a false dichotomy
Unfortunenately, my time is up, and I have yet to reach the end of this thread. If you have already started to research these things more thoroughly and said so, please accept my apologies for bringing it up again.
Until then, I encourage you to stick around and start asking QUESTIONS about what we believe instead of making statements of what you think Catholic Christians believe.
God Bless,
Maria
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Milliardo
Guest
Doesn’t that actually defend both the Catholic and Orthodox positions?Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
2 Thessalonians 2:14-16
Good enough?
A
avflf
Guest
What traditions were these?Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
2 Thessalonians 2:14-16
Good enough?
D
davidv
Guest
One is asking the Saints to intercede for us.
A
avflf
Guest
Heh, Heh, Heh. You jest, sir.
M
Man
Guest
avflf,
Do you believe that “saints” go to Heaven when they die?
OR
Do that they rest in the grave until the Jesus comes again?
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