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guanophore
Guest
The infallible magesterium of the Church, which does include the Pope.
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avflf
Guest
Free Will? If man has free will or, rather, freedom of choice does that not impinge in God’s omnipotence? But what sayeth the Scriptures.
(Ecc 7:13) Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?
(Rom 9:11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
(Rom 9:12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
(Rom 9:13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
(Rom 9:14) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
(Rom 9:15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
(Rom 9:16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
(Rom 9:17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
(Rom 9:18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
(Rom 9:19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
(Rom 9:20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
(Rom 9:21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
It seems that the first sentence here is incomplete and I’m at pains to figure out what you mean.
As to my preferences, well… maybe because I like me
M
Man
Guest
So, why do you prefer your interpretation of the Bible to ours?
Many of us can write Bible proofs and defend them you know…
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Man
Guest
Well, I prefer God, and I humbly submit to His Church, and the Traditions passed down to it. And it’s head, the Pope, who years ago submitted to God’s will and allowed a bishop to discern whether or not he could even become a priest.…
As to my preferences, well… maybe because I like me
We still have every right to plead our case to our bishop and Rome, but not break from unity…
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preslee
Guest
As a writer-researcher, 20 years of Biblical studies has helped me to view with a critical stance, in an effort to prove from Biblical writings, archaeology and history, incorrect understandings and what is truth in the written WORD. So . . .
It is easy to follow the way of the world and blindly interpret a truth. - Satan is always on the prowl to mislead the entire inhabited earth: “as a angel of light.” We should take no man’s word, including mine.
James 1:22-25 reminds us to: “Become doers of the word, and not hearers only deceiving yourselves with false reasoning.” – “Make sure of all things . . . .” 1 Thessalonians 5:21
The Books of the Bible are like a puzzle. One can gain understanding to a sequence, and a process of facts relayed in passage form, to determine what is and what isn’t a truth. – The question is…is one willing to make the effort? - Rev. 12:9
You may find the following passages of interest:
The New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XI, p 670 acknowledges: Usually in the New Testament, – “all prayer, private as well as public liturgical prayer, is addressed to God the Father Through Christ.” … In this reference material, encouragement is given to pray for the saints…but not to them or through them.
John 14: 6, 14 - “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through me.” – “If you ask for anything in my name (Jesus’ name), I will do it.” … intercession to be heard is through Christ Jesus alone.
1 Timothy 2:5 - “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man Christ Jesus.”
Romans 8:34 - “Who is he that will condemn - Christ Jesus is the one who died yes, rather of the one who was raised up from the dead, who is on the right hand of God, who also pleads for us.”
Hebrews 7:25 - “Consequently he (Christ) is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, - because he is always alive to plead for them.”
In Romans 15:30 - The apostle Paul who himself was considered a saint asked his fellow Christians, to pray for him. "Now I exhort you, brothers, through our Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the spirit, that you exert yourselves with me in prayers to God for me . . . . " - Jas. 5:16 also reminds us to pray for each other. But not to or through each other.
John 15:16 - “I appointed you to go on and keep bearing fruit and that your fruit should remain; in order that no matter what you ask the Father in my name (Jesus’ name) he “might” give it to you.”
A Reminder: John 16:23, 24 - “if you ask the Father for anything he will give it to you in my name (Jesus’ name). - Until now, you have not asked a single thing in my name. Ask and you will receive, that your joy may be made full.”
“Jesus Christ is therefore the one and only “way” of reconciliation with God and approach to God in prayer.” See Eph 2:16-18
It is easy to follow the way of the world and blindly interpret a truth. - Satan is always on the prowl to mislead the entire inhabited earth: “as a angel of light.” We should take no man’s word, including mine.
James 1:22-25 reminds us to: “Become doers of the word, and not hearers only deceiving yourselves with false reasoning.” – “Make sure of all things . . . .” 1 Thessalonians 5:21
The Books of the Bible are like a puzzle. One can gain understanding to a sequence, and a process of facts relayed in passage form, to determine what is and what isn’t a truth. – The question is…is one willing to make the effort? - Rev. 12:9
You may find the following passages of interest:
The New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XI, p 670 acknowledges: Usually in the New Testament, – “all prayer, private as well as public liturgical prayer, is addressed to God the Father Through Christ.” … In this reference material, encouragement is given to pray for the saints…but not to them or through them.
John 14: 6, 14 - “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through me.” – “If you ask for anything in my name (Jesus’ name), I will do it.” … intercession to be heard is through Christ Jesus alone.
1 Timothy 2:5 - “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man Christ Jesus.”
Romans 8:34 - “Who is he that will condemn - Christ Jesus is the one who died yes, rather of the one who was raised up from the dead, who is on the right hand of God, who also pleads for us.”
Hebrews 7:25 - “Consequently he (Christ) is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, - because he is always alive to plead for them.”
In Romans 15:30 - The apostle Paul who himself was considered a saint asked his fellow Christians, to pray for him. "Now I exhort you, brothers, through our Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the spirit, that you exert yourselves with me in prayers to God for me . . . . " - Jas. 5:16 also reminds us to pray for each other. But not to or through each other.
John 15:16 - “I appointed you to go on and keep bearing fruit and that your fruit should remain; in order that no matter what you ask the Father in my name (Jesus’ name) he “might” give it to you.”
A Reminder: John 16:23, 24 - “if you ask the Father for anything he will give it to you in my name (Jesus’ name). - Until now, you have not asked a single thing in my name. Ask and you will receive, that your joy may be made full.”
“Jesus Christ is therefore the one and only “way” of reconciliation with God and approach to God in prayer.” See Eph 2:16-18
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MariaG
Guest
So says you. However, the interpretation of the early Church contradicts your interpretation.
Well, in that case, I will have to quote a pastor who gave the sermon where I accepted the free gift of salvation as an adult.
“You either believe the Holy Bible is God’s inspired word, cover to cover including the cover, or we have nothing else to talk about”
You could certainly open a new thread to discuss whether or not the bible is completely inspired by God or not, what that means exactly and I would participate.
M
MariaG
Guest
No, I was not specifically referring to that verse.
It would be more along the lines of these verses:
Rom 12:5 - we are one body in Christ, individual parts of one another
Eph 4:4 - one body, one Spirit, called to one hope
Col 3:15 - you were called in one body
Rom 8:35-39 - death cannot separate us from Christ
The problem is that it does not support the practice of the Catholic Church. There is no communication going on between those who are alive here and those who have passed on.
I think you still do not understand what communion of the saints is about. Communication implies a two way street. When we ask saints to pray for us, we do not recieve messages back from them but can ask them to pray for us with confidence knowing we are part of the same body and through Him, He allows the saints in heaven to hear us.
So because some do not do what they are supposed to do, who fall into superstitious practices while asking saints to pray for them, the practice of asking saints to pray for us is wrong? Is this what you are saying?
You are confusing different issues. The Catholic Church teaches that Christ is the only mediator between God and man, but just as Paul in one breath teaches this, but then asks others to pray for him, there is clearly a difference between praying for others, sometimes called intercessory prayer, and the unique intercession Christ does for us.
I respect the fact that you still have not had this truth revealed to you, but scripture does in fact speak of it and the practice of the Early Church clearly supports the Catholic interpretation of Scripture.
God Bless.
Maria
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MariaG
Guest
Why do you continually contradict scripture and refer to the saints in heaven as dead?
As for not being biblical, I disagree and many others have given scripture that shows that the saints in heaven are busy presenting our prayers to God.
You may disagree with the interpretation, but your interpretation contradicts ours AND the practice and interpretation of early Christians.
God Bless,
Maria
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MariaG
Guest
Again, when are you going to stop contradicting scripture and calling those who are in heaven dead?
How can you repeatedly make statements that so clearly contradict scripture?
:bible1: Mk 12:26-27 - he is God of the living, not of the dead
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MariaG
Guest
As already stated, Catholic Christians do not pray to saints in heaven as if they were God.
With language shifts that have occurred, “prayer to saints” is better said “ask the saint to pray for you”.
And until you can show the scripture that says that the saints in heaven are dead and not alive, or where it says that we should stop asking the saints in heaven for their prayers, your beliefs are just not scriptural and contradict the interpretation of the Catholic Church and practice of the early Churches understanding of “communion of saints” which is part of the apostles’ creed.
God Bless,
Maria
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christcnection1
Guest
Indeed! Thanks for the clarification. Sometimes there is confusion in the way we use language.
All prayer to the Father must be through Jesus, with Jesus, and in Jesus. Christians should never separate Christ when it comes to prayer.
We are exhorted in dozens of places in scripture to pray for one another; no Christian should disagree with this.
Technically, we should never “pray” to the Saints. This is most certainly a false use of modern language when describing an ancient Christian practice.
As addressed in countless places already, the Saints in heaven (through Christ alone) pray for us, just as we are to pray for all our brothers and sisters in Christ. These Saints, perfectly alive in Christ in heaven, are more fully united with Him; hence, making their prayers more efficacious.
Thank you for adding all those verses of God’s holy word. Catholics embrace all these verses 100%.
God Bless,
JB
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MariaG
Guest
I do. I would not be in the Catholic Church today if I had not been convinced of the absolute scriptural truth of the Catholic Church.
In fact, if any one were to show me one dogma of the Catholic Church that contradicted scripture, I would leave immediately.
Respectfully,
Maria
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guanophore
Guest
I hope you realize that all this prayer through Christ also includes requests for intercession from those who have gone to their rest before us.
So, do you also deny that Christ gives us a share in His ministry of intercession? Do you think that there is no such thing as a ministry of intercession?
I think you just misunderstand the use of the word “prayer” in this context. There is no difference in the way that the Christians in the NT were asking each other for prayers, and the way we do now, except that we ask some of our brothers and sisters for prayer who have already passed beyond the veil of flesh.
Dear Lord, I thank you for sending me such great examples in the faith, and for surrounding me with a “great cloud of witnesses”. In your mercy, grant that these who have gone before me in the hope of resurrection be empowered to intercede not only on my behalf, but on behalf of all those who sojourn yet in this vale of tears. Thank you for shedding your blood for us all on the cross, and opening the door of heaven to us. Amen.
Amen! And He shares this way of reconciliation with us, so that we can also become ministers of reconciliation for one another.
M
MariaG
Guest
Hi Selma Kelly
,Please forgive the lateness of my reply. I went on vacation and am still trying to catch up.
My Dad picked my name. I was named after that song from Westside Story, “I’ve just met a girl named Maria”
Respectfully, you do not seem to understand what “prayer to the Saints” means.
There is no difference for a Catholic Christian to ask a saint on earth to pray for them than it is to ask a saint in heaven to pray for them. It is very different than the prayer directed to God alone.
Communion of Saints means that God allows the saints in heaven to hear us and allows them to pray for us just as they prayed for fellow Christians while still on earth.
The word “pray” has narrowed in meaning to mean that which is only directed to God. This has not always been the Case. Pray also means simply to ask. It is this meaning that “prayer to saint” is meant. Ask saints to pray for us.
It is very different than the prayer and worship that belongs to God alone.
And thank you. May God Bless you richly also
Maria
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Man
Guest
skelly123 and all those others who are reading this thread with questions about praying to saints…,
The problem, as I have repeated to the day time people, is not wether or not the Catholic interpretation is scripturally defensible, but why you choose the doctrine that you do.
The first question is:
When we die are we judged?
Or
Are we judged sometime later?
(I’d rather you not evade the question…)
The problem, as I have repeated to the day time people, is not wether or not the Catholic interpretation is scripturally defensible, but why you choose the doctrine that you do.
The first question is:
When we die are we judged?
Or
Are we judged sometime later?
(I’d rather you not evade the question…)
M
Man
Guest
I guess I asked that wrong…
Or
Are we judged when Jesus comes again to the Earth, and rest in the grave until that time?
J
justasking4
Guest
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