J
justasking4
Guest
Since the catholic church is making the claim she was without sin, it has the burden of proof. If she was without sin, then we should see this in scripture but we don’t.
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J
justasking4
Guest
Where has your church infallilby interpreted this?Are the Saints dead? See how confusing Scriptures can be without an Infallible Interpreter?
J
justasking4
Guest
How about just 2 examples?
G
guanophore
Guest
Jesus does not have “dead” body parts. All are alive unto Him.
There is One Body, not one body dead, and another alive. Is Christ divided?
The communion of the saints, as a term, is not found in scripture, just as the word Trinity is not found there. But the teaching emerges from there nonetheless. However, you are right that the practice of praying to the saints is not “based” in scripture, since it was practiced before the NT was canonized. The scripture came from the Church, and it’s Traditions, not the other way around.
Well, Maria, you are in trouble then. Because the Scriptures you are using also came from “their own ideas”. On the contrary, the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus gave His Apostles all truth, and commissioned them to preach and teach it.
G
guanophore
Guest
Yes, but how did he know that the amount they got for it, and the amount they were offering were not the same?
R
reunify
Guest
whoa! Scripture explicity states to pray togethor!!! the entire body of Christ is praying togethor!!!
J
justasking4
Guest
Those who have died in Christ are considered “asleep”. See I Thes 4:13.
Yes. Do those who have died have the same nature as us?
So you agree that the Scriptures do not teach any communication with the dead?
Are you referring to the church fathers or someone outside the canon of Scripture? If so, then “these ideas” are not of the scriptures.
He and others also warned that false teachers would come into the church and decieve many with their false teachings.
J
justasking4
Guest
He asked them. See Acts 5:4
G
guanophore
Guest
You just don’t understand the Catholic teaching on the matter. If you really want it, there are numberous “immaculate” threads you can access, as well as the library. Mary confesses that she rejoices in God her saviour. That is not the same as claiming she is a sinner. However, that is off topic in this thread.
J
justasking4
Guest
G
guanophore
Guest
Many places, some of them in the ancient liturgies that exist in both East and West. In them we have prayers to the saints dating back as far as we have records for liturgies.
J
justasking4
Guest
I do understand this matter and what the catholic church teaches about it. i know Scripture and it doesn’t teach such a thing. What the catholic church relies on is speculation and disregards the scriptures about this.
G
guanophore
Guest
They don’t lose their human nature because they have left the veil of flesh. In Revelation John can recognize those in heaven who are saints…
I think they can percieve more clearly, since they no longer see through a glass darkly.
Back a couple hundred posts ago, I said that the Tradition of praying to the saints was not based in Scripture, but in Sacred Tradition, which is not a problem for people who are not Sola Scriptura. I never purported that talking to the “dead” was taught in either place. We believe the Saints are alive in heaven with Jesus, and that, by virtue of His life inthem, and His sharing of the ministry of reconciliation, they can intercede for us before the throne of God, and present our petitions in golden bowls like incense.
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You said that if something was not found in scripture, then it was “people’s own ideas”. I responded that, if that is all the credit you give to Sacred Tradition then you really have a problem, since it was Sacred Tradition that produced those scriptures. The NT was born from the Sacred Traditions, and not the other way around. That is why the Scripture is not the sole rule of faith and authority for the Catholic. Those that don’t know this reject the source of the Scriptures in ignorance.
What did Jesus tell us to do when there was a dispute? He said, “take it to the Church”. Which Church is that, justasking? We believe it is the Church build upon Peter, the rock. It is an Apolstolic Church, that clings to the Sacred Traditions that were given to it by word of mouth in Jesus.
BTW, are you going to answer my question about how Peter knew there was a discrepancy between the selling price of the property, and the amount of the offering?
G
guanophore
Guest
How did Peter know what they did?
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
That is not what the text says, justasking. He came in, brought the proceeds, and laid it at the Apostles feet. He did not ask them how much they sold it for, or how much they kept back. Instead, he DECLARED to them they they had lied to the HS.
How did Peter know this?
Acts 5:1-4
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
That is not what the text says, justasking. He came in, brought the proceeds, and laid it at the Apostles feet. He did not ask them how much they sold it for, or how much they kept back. Instead, he DECLARED to them they they had lied to the HS.
How did Peter know this?
J
justasking4
Guest
I understand that. However where have they infallibly interpreted any passages of scripture?
J
justasking4
Guest
J
justasking4
Guest
M
Man
Guest
Or maybe, a Christian just “can’t” lie to Peter…
M
Man
Guest
There is no serious problem for the Catholics in this. The Sacred Tradition contains letters and so forth that are as old as the Bible and continues to this day. These things show us that we are the same Church we always have been.
Sometime, when something is going to be lost, or sees more work done on it, or becomes necessary for the formation of the faithful, it passes into Doctrine.
Let’s look up just one really old one on the Catholic apologetics website:
“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).
Now why would I hesitate to ask God himself? Perhaps I am ashamed? What if I don’t know how to pray? Then, perhaps someone else could help me. Someone closer to Jesus. Like His mom!
catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp
M
Man
Guest
The Scripture contains too much inspiration to be pinned down to one exact meaning. Like searching the eternity.
The Popes however have infallibly interpreted scripture, they create encyclical ex cathedra. These are considered infallible (under certain conditions). BUT, they can be challenged to some extent, because, like the Bible, they can be misinterpreted due to context or culture…
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