The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

[guanophore]

I understand that. However where have they infallibly interpreted any passages of scripture?

They are presented in outline form in the Catechism. When you read it, you can see how each of the relevant scriptures are interpreted in the light of the Church Teaching.

A good example is John 6, where the church teaches that Jesus meant exactly what He said about His Body and Blood. This is an infallible teaching on these verses.

The same is true with the intercession of Mary at the wedding in Cana. The church interprets this passage to mean that Mary has a special relationship with her Son, and that He listens and responds to her petitions. This is one reason we bring them to her.

this says nothing about their nature. What you are doing is speculating.

To me, it seems like speculation that they should lose their humanity after they passed! What would be the point of offering eternal life to human beings if they stopped being human upon death? Or maybe I just misunderstood what you meant by their “nature”? Did you mean “state of being”, rather?

This is a serious problem for the catholic church since it claims its doctrines are based on scripture but in reality they are not on this.

NO, justasking, you are uninformed abou the teachings of the Catholic Church. Our doctrines are based upon the teaching of Jesus Christ, and the Apostles to whom He trusted and empowered to preach the Gospel. It is true that part of this doctrine is recorded by the Church in the written word, though not all of it.

We believe the Saints are alive in heaven with Jesus, and that, by virtue of His life inthem, and His sharing of the ministry of reconciliation, they can intercede for us before the throne of God, and present our petitions in golden bowls like incense.
.

You realize that you are speculating when you claim this. You have no way to know if this is the way it is now.

No, justasking. It is only “speculation” to those of you that are lacking an authoritative teaching source. As Catholics, we have this, so we don’t have to speculate!

However, when speaking of praying to saints supposedly in heaven, that is a different matter entirely. For this you must rely on the ideas of men. This is where false teachers come in and teach doctrines not taught by the apostles nor Jesus.

You have made it clear that you reject the Apostolic Teaching Authority appointed by Christ. This is your right. God created you with free will. You can reject whatever you want. Your personal refusal to accept the Apostolic Authority in no way invalidates it.

Not so. All that traditions may help us with is who wrote what. And even that is not that important in terms of ispiration or inerrancy.

I think if you continue to study the history of the Bible, justasking, you will find that Sacred Tradition is indeed inextricably linked in these areas. Yes, part of it was to decide “who wrote what”,but more importantly, they had to sift through all the documents and determine which were inspired and inerrant. They could not do this without the enlightment of the HS.

That same Magesterium that compiled the canon was praying to the saints while they were doing it! How can you accept the canon, and deny the rest of the Sacred Tradition?

actually i see this as a major problem for catholics who try to defend their faith. When pressed to support doctrines with scripture and the scriptures don’t support such doctrines that puts the catholic in the position of trying to defend something that has no apostolic grounding. Without it, all you have is speculations.

Quote:
What did Jesus tell us to do when there was a dispute? He said, “take it to the Church”. Which Church is that, justasking?

If you think that church was the roman catholic church you have a problem. For one the church in the NT was not structured like the roman church.

Quote:
We believe it is the Church build upon Peter, the rock. It is an Apolstolic Church, that clings to the Sacred Traditions that were given to it by word of mouth in Jesus.

I’m aware of this claim. Impossible to support adequately with scripture or history.

BTW, are you going to answer my question about how Peter knew there was a discrepancy between the selling price of the property, and the amount of the offering?

 

[guanophore]

2 ways. Revelation by the HS perhaps and asking them.

It is one of the examples of the “word of knowledge”, where the HS reveals information about someone to another without verbal exchange. This is a glipse of communication in heaven.

Here is another example:

Acts 14:8-11

And in Lystra a certain man without strength in his feet was sitting, a cripple from his mother’s womb, who had never walked. 9 This man heard Paul speaking. Paul, observing him intently and seeing that he had faith to be healed, 10 said with a loud voice,“Stand up straight on your feet!” And he leaped and walked.

How could Paul “see” that he man had faith to be healed? In the same way the saints in heaven “see” what goes on with us. It is revealed to them by the HS.

 

[onenow1]

Originally Posted by justasking4
I understand that. However where have they infallibly interpreted any passages of scripture?

Luke 1;
28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!”

38 And Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

Comment: Do you think the angel is praying to Mary ?

Peace, OneNow1:twocents:

 

[justasking4]

onenow1;2484378]Originally Posted by justasking4
I understand that. However where have they infallibly interpreted any passages of scripture?

Luke 1;
28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!”

38 And Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

This is not an infallible interpretation from your church. Your reply doesn’t answer my question.

Comment: Do you think the angel is praying to Mary ?

Peace, OneNow1:twocents:

No.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;2484272]They are presented in outline form in the Catechism. When you read it, you can see how each of the relevant scriptures are interpreted in the light of the Church Teaching.

A good example is John 6, where the church teaches that Jesus meant exactly what He said about His Body and Blood. This is an infallible teaching on these verses.The same is true with the intercession of Mary at the wedding in Cana. The church interprets this passage to mean that Mary has a special relationship with her Son, and that He listens and responds to her petitions. This is one reason we bring them to her.

Do you know where this is stated in offical church documents this is an infallible interpretation of these verses?

To me, it seems like speculation that they should lose their humanity after they passed! What would be the point of offering eternal life to human beings if they stopped being human upon death? Or maybe I just misunderstood what you meant by their “nature”? Did you mean “state of being”, rather?

Their “state of being” and the characteristics of the soul in the afterlife.

NO, justasking, you are uninformed abou the teachings of the Catholic Church. Our doctrines are based upon the teaching of Jesus Christ, and the Apostles to whom He trusted and empowered to preach the Gospel. It is true that part of this doctrine is recorded by the Church in the written word, though not all of it.

Not so. I understand these teachings and i also study the Scriptures and the 2 are not in harmony.

We believe the Saints are alive in heaven with Jesus, and that, by virtue of His life inthem, and His sharing of the ministry of reconciliation, they can intercede for us before the throne of God, and present our petitions in golden bowls like incense.

.
Just because you believe it doesn’t make it true. If it were true, there would be some support from scripture that praying to dead saints was true and to be done. Without this, you really have no justification for your belief.

No, justasking. It is only “speculation” to those of you that are lacking an authoritative teaching source. As Catholics, we have this, so we don’t have to speculate!

Look at the support your " authoritative teaching source" gives for these doctrines and practices. It won’t do for them to just say–“believe on our authority alone”. The Scripture exhort us not to just accept any church authority without question but to “examine everything carefully”.

You have made it clear that you reject the Apostolic Teaching Authority appointed by Christ. This is your right. God created you with free will. You can reject whatever you want. Your personal refusal to accept the Apostolic Authority in no way invalidates it.

The Scriptures warn us that false teachers will come into the church itself. We are exhorted at all times to be on guard agains this kind of thing. If i were to take your postition it would be impossible to refute them since your church claims never to have erred. Jesus never gave such a gurantee His church would never error. The one way to know if a church teaches error is to compare it with the inspired-inerrant Scriptures. When we apply this principle to the marian doctrines we do find error.

I think if you continue to study the history of the Bible, justasking, you will find that Sacred Tradition is indeed inextricably linked in these areas. Yes, part of it was to decide “who wrote what”,but more importantly, they had to sift through all the documents and determine which were inspired and inerrant. They could not do this without the enlightment of the HS.

I have read a number of books on the canon of scripture.

That same Magesterium that compiled the canon was praying to the saints while they were doing it!

I have never seen this claim. Would you happen to know where i can find it?

How can you accept the canon, and deny the rest of the Sacred Tradition?

What Sacred tradition are you referring to? Do you happen to have a list of these “Sacred Traditions” that we can study?

 

[Faith5]

We know of certain persons who are there, because God has revealed that to us. However, you are right, about those of whom it is not revealed, we do not know.

The Sacred Scriptures do encourage us to pray for one another.
On earth we would be willing to pray for the person who asks.
It makes sense. Why not ask the souls in Heaven to pray with
us to Jesus? After all, we are His body and Jesus is the head.
All are alive in Christ! Why limit ourselves. Why decapitate
Jesus? We’re all connected by the grace of God. By the way,
where in the Bible does it state do not pray with saints?

 

[Faith5]

We know of certain persons who are there, because God has revealed that to us. However, you are right, about those of whom it is not revealed, we do not know.

 

[justasking4]

The Sacred Scriptures do encourage us to pray for one another.

On earth we would be willing to pray for the person who asks.
It makes sense. Why not ask the souls in Heaven to pray with
us to Jesus? After all, we are His body and Jesus is the head.
All are alive in Christ! Why limit ourselves. Why decapitate
Jesus? We’re all connected by the grace of God. By the way,
where in the Bible does it state do not pray with saints?

What you say here is common sense but not biblical. There are no exhortations, teachings etc for christians ever to pray to a created being. We to God only. The burden of proof is on your shoulders to show from scripture that we are to pray to saints.

 

[Faith5]

I have no burden on my shoulders in interpreting Scripture. The
Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. I believe in the teaching
authority of the Catholic Church. If I have a burden -it’s light.
God works through people because He freely chooses to associate
man with the work of His grace… It’s called merit in our Catechism.
We go to and through people to experience God. Only because of
God can I pray with anyone on earth and any saint beyond.
The people I know who have children went to their wives to have
them. The last time I went to confession God forgave my sins through a priest. I provide for my family. God works through us.
We can pray for and with each other to Jesus.
What Scripture states I can’t pray with others?

 

[Man]

What you say here is common sense but not biblical. There are no exhortations, teachings etc for christians ever to pray to a created being. We to God only. The burden of proof is on your shoulders to show from scripture that we are to pray to saints.

This is not logical. We don’t have to prove to you that people exist in Heaven. You have no doubt heard the definition of “pray.” You accept that people can pray for you on Earth.

The problem appears to be that you doubt a Saints ability to hear us ask for them to pray for us. Or, possibly that God can hear us better.

For the first part, we can go straight to the Tradition of the Church or various peoples belief anywhere (“she’s looking over me even now…”)

For the second part, Saints are closer to God than we many times are, and they usually understand God much much better, thus, they know how to pray better.

But, I realize that these interpretations and Traditions are openly rejected by various churches, and people who belong to those churches simply accept those doctrines “out of hand.”

So, I am wondering if you are actually trying to learn about the Catholic Church, or if you are trying to “teach” us about your church. A closed mind is different than a skeptical one.

Perhaps I should ask, what do you know about the Catholic Church’s teachings on praying to Saints?

What are your churches arguments to the contrary?

 

[justasking4]

Man;2487604]This is not logical. We don’t have to prove to you that people exist in Heaven. You have no doubt heard the definition of “pray.” You accept that people can pray for you on Earth.

Yes. They are living beings that have that capacity in this world to do so.

The problem appears to be that you doubt a Saints ability to hear us ask for them to pray for us.

Not only doubt the scriptures never teach such a thing. Even those who do pray to saints can have no certainty.

Or, possibly that God can hear us better.

Yes because the scriptures command us to.

For the first part, we can go straight to the Tradition of the Church or various peoples belief anywhere (“she’s looking over me even now…”)

Just because your Tradition makes this claim means that its true.

For the second part, Saints are closer to God than we many times are, and they usually understand God much much better, thus, they know how to pray better.

How do you know this?

But, I realize that these interpretations and Traditions are openly rejected by various churches, and people who belong to those churches simply accept those doctrines “out of hand.”

I’m not rejecting them out of hand but asking catholics to show from scripture living people here being commanded to pray to a created being? I’m asking how you know how you the dead can hear you and do something about your requests?
The related issue to this is purgatory. Can people in purgatory hear your prayers?

So, I am wondering if you are actually trying to learn about the Catholic Church, or if you are trying to “teach” us about your church. A closed mind is different than a skeptical one.

Does the truth matter to you? Would you still believe in something that you knew had no go evidence for it?

Perhaps I should ask, what do you know about the Catholic Church’s teachings on praying to Saints?

I have read a number of articles on it and have discussed it with various catholics. I also know what the Scriptures teach about prayer and the 2 are not the same. In fact it is what the scriptures teach us about and to whom is what the issue is.
Do you know what the scriptures teach about prayer?

What are your churches arguments to the contrary?

The protestant churches that i’m familar with do not teach this kind of thing of praying to the saints.

 

[justasking4]

[Faith5;2487367]I have no burden on my shoulders in interpreting Scripture.

Huh. Everytime you read something you must interpret. There is no way around it.

The
Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. I believe in the teaching authority of the Catholic Church.

Even here you must interpret what your church says.
If I have a burden -it’s light. God works through people because He freely chooses to associate man with the work of His grace… It’s called merit in our Catechism.

We go to and through people to experience God. Only because of
God can I pray with anyone on earth and any saint beyond.
The people I know who have children went to their wives to have
them. The last time I went to confession God forgave my sins through a priest. I provide for my family. God works through us.
We can pray for and with each other to Jesus.

It is right to pary for each here. Scripture commands that. What it does not teach is praying to command is to pray to created beings.

What Scripture states I can’t pray with others?

You can pray with others but not to them.

 

[Man]

Yes. They are living beings that have that capacity in this world to do so.

Not only doubt the scriptures never teach such a thing. Even those who do pray to saints can have no certainty.

Yes because the scriptures command us to.

Just because your Tradition makes this claim means that its true.

How do you know this?

I’m not rejecting them out of hand but asking catholics to show from scripture living people here being commanded to pray to a created being? I’m asking how you know how you the dead can hear you and do something about your requests?
The related issue to this is purgatory. Can people in purgatory hear your prayers?

Does the truth matter to you? Would you still believe in something that you knew had no go evidence for it?

I have read a number of articles on it and have discussed it with various catholics. I also know what the Scriptures teach about prayer and the 2 are not the same. In fact it is what the scriptures teach us about and to whom is what the issue is.
Do you know what the scriptures teach about prayer?

The protestant churches that i’m familar with do not teach this kind of thing of praying to the saints.

The Church has always held that it is pious and good to encourage the Saints to pray with them to God. It’s Tradition, that is, it’s Sacred History. We have 2000 years of praying to saints. We have Jesus talking to Moses on the mountain.

The Church selected the Scriptures that were clearly part of its Tradition and the beliefs of the priests, bishops (you betcha), and faithful.

IF the scriptures were contrary to this Tradition, or this Christian History, and always have been, then why would the Church put them in the Bible?

 

[justasking4]

Or maybe, a Christian just “can’t” lie to Peter…

Actually he was put to death not for lying to Peter but the HS.

 

[Faith5]

The Catholic Church teaches about the three states of the church.
Anyone who has a Catechism can read the truth. The church has
spoken.
The non-Catholics generally believe in interpreting Sacred Scripture
individually.
What’s there to interpret for a practicing Catholic who is given the
correct interpretation by the Church which Scripture calls the
pillar and foundation of truth.
Does the blood circulate to all parts of the body? Is the body
of Christ one? A measure of faith is required even when we sit down
on a chair.

 

[Man]

Actually he was put to death not for lying to Peter but the HS.

Exactly.

 

[runandsew]

I’m not rejecting them out of hand but asking catholics to show from scripture living people here being commanded to pray to a created being? I’m asking how you know how you the dead can hear you and do something about your requests?

One of the criteria for a saint to be declared a Saint is that there are miracles attributed to their intercessions.
So if you want to know if they can hear us and do something about our requests, I would say let the miracles speak for themselves.
It is not the Saints performing the miracle, only God can do that, but it is by their intercession which God performed the miracle.

The church does a lot of research before they declare someone a Saint. They have medical doctors researching to see if indeed it was a miracle or maybe just a coincidence, or just a natural healing.

 

[MariaG]

The issue is not if the saints are alive but can they hear your specific requests and do something about them. That is the primary issue. Since the Scripture never teach such a thing except to pray directly to God alone, then such a teaching by the catholic church is speculation since the Scriptures don’t teach it.
The secondary issue is: how do you the state of a catholic who has died? If they are in purgatory, can they hear your prayers to them from there?

But again, scripture DOES teach specifically to the fact that Saints are supposed to pray for one another and ask each other for prayer.

Scripture DOES specifically speak to those who have died being aware and concerned for those still on earth.

And scripture does NOT tell us that once we are saints in heaven, that we are no longer supposed to pray for those on earth.

As for the HOW it can be done, it is only through God’s mercy and Grace.

As for speculation, it is not speculation to show that the very first Christians practiced this and believed in this the very same manner that Catholic Christians do. Scripture tells us to hold fast to Tradition whether by word or by letter. Another thread, but where is the Oral Tradition we are supposed to hold fast to according to your Church? Or where does scripture tell us that it has all been written down now, only follow the written in books xyz, since Luther disagreed with the Christians of 300 AD?

As for your question about purgatory, there really is no answer for that. Especially since the Catholic Church does not teach that purgatory is a place at all. But rather that we will be completely Holy and completely cleased by Christ’s blood. Whether this is instantaneous thing as some believe or whether it is an actual place where “time” is spent as others believe is simply speculation.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

originally posted by justasking4 #358

My reference about “the dead” is about those who have died here. They are the “dead” to us here.

:bible1: Mk 12:26-27 - he is God of the living, not of the dead

And where in scripture does it tell us that? Scripture specifically tells us that they are not dead but alive. So where does scripture tell us that they are dead to us here, contrary to the understanding of early Christians and the apostles Creed of the “communion of saints”?

 

[justasking4]

MariaG;2498042]But again, scripture DOES teach specifically to the fact that Saints are supposed to pray for one another and ask each other for prayer.

This is true. However the context is always for those alive in this world. Those that are living here.

Scripture DOES specifically speak to those who have died being aware and concerned for those still on earth.

Would you happen to have the verse for this? It’s certainly not Hebrews 12:1.

And scripture does NOT tell us that once we are saints in heaven, that we are no longer supposed to pray for those on earth.

This is true. However, it is you who is making this claim and you need to show this is actually the case.

As for the HOW it can be done, it is only through God’s mercy and Grace.

This is not a question of “How” but what do the scriptures teach about this? If you want to go beyond what is written in Scripture, then you are going to have to show how a person who makes such statements is telling you the truth or makiing it up.

As for speculation, it is not speculation to show that the very first Christians practiced this and believed in this the very same manner that Catholic Christians do.

I’m not sure who you are referring to here. It certainly not those of the NT church.

Scripture tells us to hold fast to Tradition whether by word or by letter. Another thread, but where is the Oral Tradition we are supposed to hold fast to according to your Church?

Protestants don’t depend on “Oral Traditions” but the Scriptures.

Or where does scripture tell us that it has all been written down now, only follow the written in books xyz, since Luther disagreed with the Christians of 300 AD?

There are major problems when a church goes beyond what the Scriptures teach. For one, how do you know that the person who is telling you to pray to a saint knows that specific saint can hear you? This is impossible to know since there is no way to know with any certainty that so and so is in any position to hear and do something about your prayers. No one knows the the state of a dead person.

As for your question about purgatory, there really is no answer for that. Especially since the Catholic Church does not teach that purgatory is a place at all. But rather that we will be completely Holy and completely cleased by Christ’s blood. Whether this is instantaneous thing as some believe or whether it is an actual place where “time” is spent as others believe is simply speculation.

Exactly. This is speculation. This is what happens when a church goes beyond what the Scriptures teach. The Scriptures do give us the confidence that we can pray directly to Christ because He alone intercedes for us. Only He can hear our prayers and has the power and authority to answer them. With this great promise there is no need to pray to any saint, Mary or angel. Christ is all you need.
God Bless,
Maria