The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

[skelly123]

Actually, you might want to check your attitude. No one here on this forum talks like that to one another … so you can just keep your Medieval “buring at the stake inquisition muck” all to yourself, okay?

And incidentally … You just gave youself away in front of everyone on this sight … You denounced the final authority of Christ and the Apostles and called them BENEATH the Macabees … when in fact … it’s the OTHER WAY ROUND.

Have no further contact with me or I’ll report you, okay?

Why even discuss the subject with people who don’t believe in the real scriptures?

Maccabees is the truth–if you disbelieve it get ready for the possibility of Hell.

Since we as Catholics don’t know the individual fate of each soul we will pray for you after you die.

If you truely don’t have enough love in your heart to pray for us after you die–then God will grant your wish and you’ll be able to continue not praying for us after death in Hell!

 

[justasking4]

The Saints are alive.

If the “Saints are alive” how do you know they can hear your specific prayers?

 

[justasking4]

No, we say that Jesus came to establish His Body on earth, and that He intended for us to journey the straight and narrow road TOGETHER. “God alone” is just as erroneous as 'faith alone" and “scripture alone”.

We do not pray to “dead humans” but we ask intercession from those who have gone beyond the veil of flesh, and whose lives are hidden with Christ in God, and alive forevermore. If you disagree, then you are denying that the fervent, effectual prayer of a righteous person avails much.

There are a number of unproveable assumptions being made on this doctrine of praying to the saints who have died. Since the Scriptures never tell us that a dead saint can our prays here you must assume that they can. You also have to assume without any evidence or proof that a particular saint you pray to can hear you and do something about your prayer.
The only One the Scriptures exhort us to pray to is God. Only the ispired-inerrant Scriptures tells us this. To go beyond what is written in them is to speculate without any foundation.

 

[justasking4]

(Mat 6:5) And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

(Mat 6:6) But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

If you look at the context for this passage you will notice that it has nothing to do with praying to saints.

 

[runandsew]

If the “Saints are alive” how do you know they can hear your specific prayers?

Maybe because the prayers were answered?

The Saints are in heaven.
The Saints in heaven are righteous.

**James 5:16 **
The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective

Proverbs 5:29
The LORD is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayer of the righteous.


The Bible Supports Praying to the Saints
By Mitchell Pacwa, S.J.

Praying to saints revisited
By JOHN LOFTON and MITCHELL PACW A, S.J

 

[skelly123]

Hi, how are you? When you say “saints” are you talking about “all of God’s people” … or just the Catholic saints?

The reason I ask is because it seems that Catholics are under the impression that only Catholic saints can go to heaven. But this is not correct. When the NT and OT speak of “saints” the exact definition in the Greek and Hebrew is … “God’s people”.

And because God doesn’t play the favorites game, there are is no “special person” that He prefers over another. So which do you believe … just wondering.

 

[justasking4]

I brought it up because, we bring attention to GOD through Prayer, to God.

The intent here is not to show that this supports directly or indirectly prayers of the saints in heaven but to try to show you that your preconcieved ideas of what “praying to saints” is in error.

You bolded “by prayer” and “to God” “ask the Father” and “have confidence in God”. The point is, we do that. Asking others to pray for you never takes away our confidence in God, it is just doing what scripture tells us to, asking other saints to pray for us.

The only difference is the understanding of which saints we beleive we can ask to pray for us. You believe that once we die in Christ, we are separated from the rest of the body of Christ. We believe we are still one body through Christ. Nothing can separate us, even death, for we are alive in and through Christ.

 

[skelly123]

Let’s see what God says about this.

No mortal has ever EARNED the right to hear or answer prayer because they didn’t EARN this on the cross. Christ alone EARNED it and for this reason is our High Priest and Mediator.

Ephs 2:18: For through Him we have access by one Spirit to the Father.

1st Tim 2:5: For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus…

John 14:14: Ask anything in My name and I will do it.

Notice that we are instructed to pray only to the Father, in Jesus’ name, not Augustine, not Mary … and that only through Christ do we have ACCESS to God.

There are a number of unproveable assumptions being made on this doctrine of praying to the saints who have died. Since the Scriptures never tell us that a dead saint can our prays here you must assume that they can. You also have to assume without any evidence or proof that a particular saint you pray to can hear you and do something about your prayer.
The only One the Scriptures exhort us to pray to is God. Only the ispired-inerrant Scriptures tells us this. To go beyond what is written in them is to speculate without any foundation.

 

[water]

The reason I ask is because it seems that Catholics are under the impression that only Catholic saints can go to heaven. But this is not correct. When the NT and OT speak of “saints” the exact definition in the Greek and Hebrew is … “God’s people”.

Catholics don’t believe in what it seems to you.
Here is what it says about “Salvation outside the Church”.
catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

ps: when replying to a specific person, please use the “Quote” button inside that person’s post instead of using “post reply” button. By doing this, we all know whom you are conversing with. It will reduce lots of confusions.

 

[water]

Let’s see what God says about this.

No mortal has ever EARNED the right to hear or answer prayer because they didn’t EARN this on the cross. Christ alone EARNED it and for this reason is our High Priest and Mediator.

Is this God who said it, or you said it?

Notice that we are instructed to pray only to the Father, in Jesus’ name, not Augustine, not Mary … and that only through Christ do we have ACCESS to God.

When I “pray to” Virgin Mary, I actually “talk” or “ask” her…just as you ask your family member.

How could She hear my prayer? Does she have such a power?

• God can do anything with all of us, can’t He?
• If He can call Virgin Mary to be “Mother”, He can do far more than that.
• If God can allow disciples to perform miracles in His Name, why makes Him stop doing it now?

 

[justasking4]

Maybe because the prayers were answered?

The problem is that you have no way of knowing with any certainty that it answered specifically by the saint you prayed to. In Jeremiah 44:15-17 the Jews claimed when they sacrificed to the queen of heaven they had plenty. Would you say this was right because their “prayers to the queen” were answered even though they sinned in doing so?

The Saints are in heaven.
The Saints in heaven are righteous.

 

[justasking4]

QUOTE=Jerry-Jet;2454638]Listen to the church!

Don’t listen to mere christian communities!

Let me encourage to read and study the Scriptures and hold your church accountable to them. Examine what they teach by what the inspired Scripture teaches. If it doesn’t line up with the Scriptures, then you should reject it as binding. It is the Scriptures alone that are inspired-inerrant and not any church.

 

[justasking4]

I guess you never ask anyone to pray for you, which is a clearly biblical practice.God Bless,

Michael

It is right to ask other christians in this world to pray for each other. Scripture certainly confirms this. What it does not teach is asking the dead saints to help you. It may make sense to do so, but its not biblical.

 

[guanophore]

Why even discuss the subject with people who don’t believe in the real scriptures?

Maccabees is the truth–if you disbelieve it get ready for the possibility of Hell.

Because most Protestants don’t even realize where their bibles came from. They don’t know they were written by Catholics, or preserved by the Catholic Church, and they don’t know that Reformers took books out. They think that we “added” books! So, you are right, they may reject the truth anyway,but they have a right to know what it is first.

 

[guanophore]

Actually, you might want to check your attitude. No one here on this forum talks like that to one another … so you can just keep your Medieval “buring at the stake inquisition muck” all to yourself, okay?

Unless you are a reincarnation of someone who got banned, you have not been here long. In fact, you will find that there is quite a bit of talk like that here on the forum. Although, I do think Jerry-Jet comes across a little strong.

And incidentally … You just gave youself away in front of everyone on this sight … You denounced the final authority of Christ and the Apostles and called them BENEATH the Macabees … when in fact … it’s the OTHER WAY ROUND.

I am not sure what you mean by this. Jesus and His apostles used and quoted from these books, that is why they were kept in the canon.

Have no further contact with me or I’ll report you, okay?

If you are going to stay on the Apologetics part of the forum, you may need to grow a thicker skin. If you don’t want contact with Jerry-Jet, you may need to to another forum.

What are you going to report him for? Being passionate about his beliefs?

 

[guanophore]

If the “Saints are alive” how do you know they can hear your specific prayers?

Because they answer them all the time!

But, we also know from what Scripture teaches us about those who are “in Christ”. They have died, and their lives are hidden with Christ in God. Their minds are focused on Christ, where He is seated at the right hand of God. If our prayers are also focused in the same way, then they will come together in a beautiful weaving like incense rising before the throne of God. This is the image we see in the book of Revelation.

There are a number of unproveable assumptions being made on this doctrine of praying to the saints who have died.

I suppose you could call all the basic tenents of our faith “assumptions”. I can’t “prove” Jesus is God, either, but I rely on the testimony given about Him.

There Since the Scriptures never tell us that a dead saint can our prays here you must assume that they can.

Actually, no. I know that all the Saints are alive in heaven with Jesus. I know that He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, and I know that He Himself spoke with the Holy Men who had passed from the veil of flesh.

There You also have to assume without any evidence or proof that a particular saint you pray to can hear you and do something about your prayer.

Since you do not accept the evidence of testimony of the brethren, part of the communion of saints, then I guess that is true for you. For me, the testimony of the Fathers and my elders in the faith is evidence.

I also have personal experiences that confirm these testimonies.

There
The only One the Scriptures exhort us to pray to is God. Only the ispired-inerrant Scriptures tells us this. To go beyond what is written in them is to speculate without any foundation.

We see it differently, since I am not a Sola Scripturist, and I believe equally in the inspired infallible Sacred Tradition. For me, the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth.

My advice to you would be to NOT pray to any saints! Scripture teaches us that, for him who knows what is right for him to do, if he does not do it, for him, it is a sin. So, since you know it is wrong for you, if you did it, you would be sinning!

 

[justasking4]

If you don’t believe in praying to saints, then don’t.

No one who is a Christian should pray to the saints. Christ alone is sufficent.

But if you don’t believe in praying to saints, you have no right to say your 400 year old man made invention is correct, and our 2000 year old Tradition is wrong.

None of the passages you use here demonstrate any idea of appealing to the dead for help. That is the issue.

 

[justasking4]

Because they answer them all the time!

How do you know with any certainity that a dead saint has heard your prayer? How do you know if that “saint” you may be praying to is in hell or purgatory? Can they hear and do something from these places?

But, we also know from what Scripture teaches us about those who are “in Christ”. They have died, and their lives are hidden with Christ in God.

 

[guanophore]

No one who is a Christian should pray to the saints. Christ alone is sufficent.

How did you come to be Pope, that it is now your duty to tell other Christians how to practice their faith?

Just because the catholic church has been around longer doesn’t authomatically mean its always right. What we must do is look to the scriptures and see if it supports praying to them.

Where did your scriptures come from?

The Church is right because Jesus promised to make Her right, not because of how long she has been here.

This passage in context has nothing to do with praying to the dead.

You are right. It is about asking the righteous in heaven to intercede for us, and they are very much alive!

We believe, as scripture teaches, that there is only One Body. Those who have shed the veil of flesh are not less a part of the Body. We also believe, as scripture teaches, that He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

What protestants reject is communicating with the dead which is what praying to the saints is.

It seems that you clearly don’t understand, and don’t want to understand. You believe they are dead, Catholics believe they are alive. It is a difference of perception.

Look at the context. It has nothing to do with praying to the dead but with those alive in this world now.

You are right. Asking for the intercession of the saints has nothing to do with praying to the dead.

This sounds great but the scriptures don’t teach this about the dead doing this.

You are right. The scriptures teach that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, and the scriptures teach that the Holy Ones are in the presence of God. And the scriptures teach that the saints in heaven present our prayers in golden bowls before the altar of God.

Again this role of interceding for us is done by Christ alone. The scriptures never refer to us as being some kind of mediator in this way.

Apparently you don’t understand the ministry of intercession, either.

Agreed so long as you are referring to those in this world and not those who have died.

None of the passages you use here demonstrate any idea of appealing to the dead for help. That is the issue.

It is not an issue for Catholics, because we know those Saints who have gone before uso have passed are alive in Christ.

 

[justasking4]

Because they answer them all the time!

But, we also know from what Scripture teaches us about those who are “in Christ”. They have died, and their lives are hidden with Christ in God. Their minds are focused on Christ, where He is seated at the right hand of God. If our prayers are also focused in the same way, then they will come together in a beautiful weaving like incense rising before the throne of God. This is the image we see in the book of Revelation.

i responded to this above in a previous message.

I suppose you could call all the basic tenents of our faith “assumptions”. I can’t “prove” Jesus is God, either, but I rely on the testimony given about Him.

This testimony is what we call the Scriptures which we believe they have their source in God. You don’t have this testimony of the scriptures to support praying to the saints. You must assume this without the scriptures and rely on speculation.

Actually, no. I know that all the Saints are alive in heaven with Jesus. I know that He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, and I know that He Himself spoke with the Holy Men who had passed from the veil of flesh.

How do you know this if even your church doesn’t know who is in heaven?

Since you do not accept the evidence of testimony of the brethren, part of the communion of saints, then I guess that is true for you. For me, the testimony of the Fathers and my elders in the faith is evidence.

Then look at the grounds for their claims about this. If revelation (Scripture) doesn’t teach this, then you are left with the speculations of men.

I also have personal experiences that confirm these testimonies.

There could also be other reasons for your personal expierences that have nothing to do with the saints.

We see it differently, since I am not a Sola Scripturist, and I believe equally in the inspired infallible Sacred Tradition. For me, the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth.

This is not about sola scriptura but how do you know when you pray to a specific saint hears your prayer? You have given 2 criteria’ above. How do you know they are reliable on this specific matter?

My advice to you would be to NOT pray to any saints! Scripture teaches us that, for him who knows what is right for him to do, if he does not do it, for him, it is a sin.

I would offer you the same advice for a couple of reasons.
1- Scripture does not teach such a thing
2- Christ alone, directly to Him is more than sufficent for you.
3- since 2 is correct, praying to saints is totally unnecessary.

So, since you know it is wrong for you, if you did it, you would be sinning!

Yes. Praying to anyone but Christ and is something no Christian should ever do.