The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

[epostle]

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)

Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.

Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.

Your only option is to dismiss these verses with bible-contortions and appealing to obscure “Greek” rules conjured up by interpreters who rely on pure human effort, and leave out 2000 years of consistent authoritive teaching, throwing out the Holy Spirit from the Church, and pitting the bible against the Church.

But these verses will not be good enough, explanations of doctrinal development means nothing, the fine patience of many posters answering your every charge has been ignored, you assume all the Christians for 1500 years were wrong except whoever, you divide the Kingdom of God, and you are left with a God who doesn’t love us enough to allow us to work with Him.

I may get another warning for saying this, but bigotry can only be healed by the Holy spirit, not fruitless argumentation, which St. Paul says, is a sin. I beg you to evaluate your anti-Catholic prejudice and seek the truth with sincerity.

This is my last post in this thread.

Good day, just4asking.

 

[Jesusstreet]

Hebrews 12:1 *And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:
2 *Looking on Jesus, the author and finisher of faith, who having joy set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and now sitteth on the right hand of the throne of God.
3 *For think diligently upon him that endured such opposition from sinners against himself; that you be not wearied, fainting in your minds.
Hebrews 12:4 *For you have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin:
5 *And you have forgotten the consolation, which speaketh to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord; neither be thou wearied whilst thou art rebuked by him.
6 *For whom the Lord loveth, he chastiseth; and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 *Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct?
8 *But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons.
Hebrews 12:9 *Moreover we have had fathers of our flesh, for instructors, and we reverenced them: shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits, and live?
10 *And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification.
11 *Now all chastisement for the present indeed seemeth not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield, to them that are exercised by it, the most peaceable fruit of justice.
12 *Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees,
Hebrews 12:13 *And make straight steps with your feet: that no one, halting, may go out of the way; but rather be healed.
14 *Follow peace with all men, and holiness: without which no man shall see God.
15 *Looking diligently, lest any man be wanting to the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up do hinder, and by it many be defiled.
16 *Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau; who for one mess, sold his first birthright.
17 *For know ye that afterwards, when he desired to inherit the benediction, he was rejected; for he found no place of repentance, although with tears he had sought it.
Hebrews 12:18 *For you are not come to a mountain that might be touched, and a burning fire, and a whirlwind, and darkness, and storm,
19 *And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words, which they that heard excused themselves, that the word might not be spoken to them:
20 *For they did not endure that which was said: And if so much as a beast shall touch the mount, it shall be stoned.
21 *And so terrible was that which was seen, Moses said: I am frighted, and tremble.
22 *But you are come to mount Sion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to the company of many thousands of angels,
Hebrews 12:23 *And to the church of the firstborn, who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect,
24 *And to Jesus the mediator of the new testament, and to the sprinkling of blood which speaketh better than that of Abel.
25 *See that you refuse him not that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spoke upon the earth, much more shall not we, that turn away from him that speaketh to us from heaven.
26 *Whose voice then moved the earth; but now he promiseth, saying: Yet once more, and I will move not only the earth, but heaven also.
Hebrews 12:26 *Whose voice then moved the earth; but now he promiseth, saying: Yet once more, and I will move not only the earth, but heaven also.
27 *And in that he saith, Yet once more, he signifieth the translation of the moveable things as made, that those things may remain which are immoveable.
28 *Therefore receiving an immoveable kingdom, we have grace; whereby let us serve, pleasing God, with fear and reverence.
29 *For our God is a consuming fire.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

  			Originally Posted by **justasking4** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2415482#post2415482) 				
  		The Scriptures do not teach us to pray to Mary or the saints but only to God alone. That is clear. Even the catholic church claims to not know who is in heaven and who is not. It also has the purgatory doctrine that also factors into this.

Well actually, we can know for sure who is in heaven.

Saints are for sure. Souls granted titles of “Blessed” and “Venerables” I’m fuzzy, somebody else help, they may be in heaven but could also still be in Purgatory, is that correct?

Of course, the “Blessed Virgin Mary” we know she’s in heaven. That lady is a capital S Saint!!

 

[Jesusstreet]

Well actually, we can know for sure who is in heaven.

Saints are for sure. Souls granted titles of “Blessed” and “Venerables” I’m fuzzy, somebody else help, they may be in heaven but could also still be in Purgatory, is that correct?

Of course, the “Blessed Virgin Mary” we know she’s in heaven. That lady is a capital S Saint!!

Well that’s right, we can say infallibly “some” of those who are in HEAVEN. This was confirmed in revelation by OUR LADY at Fatima. Many more souls are in purgatory, some will be there until the day of judgement. The frequent intercession and miracles of help and healing of these Saints has confirmed they are in HEAVEN. This intercession has been occurring now for 2000 years if anyone would wish to investigate with faith.

MOTHER MARY was assumed bodily into HEAVEN. This is explained in the book of Esther as a prophetic allegory, in Luke Chapter 1 and 2 and in Revelation. Esther in the Catholic Bible has more chapters than in the kjv . …

MOTHER MARY was persecuted by the dragon, had HER heart (i take this to mean SPIRITual heart) pierced with a sword that thoughts could be revealed. And her intercession in HEAVEN is as our MOTHER who wants to save HER children. When we honor MOTHER MARY in the rosary, in devotion and charity we are fulfilling the commandment to honor our mother and father. This is our DIVINE FAMILY, by which we have a woman who is flesh and blood, and magnifies the DIVINE SON JESUS CHRIST. That we all are made sons of GOD, through HER, THE ARK OF THE NEW COVENANT.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Doesn’t your church say it does not know who is in heaven except for a few?
Secondly, you have no way of knowing if they can even hear your prayers. The scriptures don’t teach it and that is the only way you could since they are revealtion.

Those in heaven are in union with God, and have access (as He sees fit) to His knowledge. Revelations 5:8 and 8:3-4 show the prayers of the saints being offered up to God, by the way (see the article linked below).

Do you know specifically who has been condemned and who has not?

It has been stated over and over again that we Catholics do NOT know who has been condemned or not, but that the Holy Spirit and the witness of miracles has assured us of the salvation of many saints. This revelation gives us hope, role models to follow, and intercessors to petition for help.

All you are doing here is taking a “shot gun” approach and hope you hit something. Since you don’t know and can’t know who is in heaven, you have no way to know if anyone really hears your prayers. You can have no confidence your prayers are heard.

But we DO know that some people are in heaven – it’s been revealed to us that the Saints (big “S”) are there, and we know that anyone who has died in a complete state of grace, with no need of purgation, is there, too. They can also hear our prayers.

I deny it because the scriptures don’t teach it. Rather it does teach that we do have a great high priest in Christ who does intercede for us before the FATHER.

The Scriptures also don’t teach that only things found in Scripture are worthy of belief. They do, however, teach that the Church has the authority to teach in Christ’s name, and that He promised that it would be protected from error.

Not so. It is a matter of truth and what do the scriptures teach about how and to whom we are to pray to. The idea of praying to a saint is totally unknown to the scripture.

Again, this has been stated over and over again: we do not pray to the saints as we pray to God; we ask them to pray for us and with us. And, as stated above, the Church has the authority to teach us things that are not explicitly laid out in the Bible – but there are Psalms which do, in fact, call upon the heavenly host to praise God, for example.

You really ought to read the “Praying to the Saints” article at catholic.com. Unless, of course, you’re afraid of being proved wrong…

Peace,
Dante

 

[justasking4]

epostle;2562181]I said it before. It doesn’t have to be explicitly spelled out in scripture, and you still have failed to produce one scripture that states that all doctrines must be explicitly spelled out in scripture. That is a false doctrine. You go by it. Until you can produce a scripture that supports this man-made tradition, you remain in error.
Do you believe the scriptures are inspired-inerrant?

You have also failed to provide a scripture that condemns the practice.

Must the scriptures condemn everything for it to be wrong?

The Christians painted prayers for the saints on the walls of the catacombs in the 1st century, that can still be seen today. You have dismissed this hard physical evidence and not because you are seeking the truth.

This does not help your view for the mere fact that we don’t know who wrote this and all it shows someone evidently believed it. If anything it most likely is a reflection of a pagan belief since the scriptures never exhort such a prayer ever.

There is no proof that prayers to saints was found to be in error,

The burden of porrf is on your shoulder to bear. Can we at least agree that the scriptures never teach us to pray to a creature?

until the reformers came up with their Nominalist self defeating doctrine of “bible-alone” theology, which you can use the bible to say anything you want it to. You have 30,000 variations that demonstrates its failure. Some are 80% correct, and some are 20% correct.

You have dismissed every supporting scriptural argument including the whole concept of doctrinal development.

i must be dense. You can call it doctrinal development but you cannot grounded it on the scriptures for the mere facts that it never teaches such a doctrine but does teach us only to pray to God.

It is my personal opinion that those who reject the Creeds can scarcely be called Christians, because then you must cherry pick the teachings of the Apostles successors who were just a few generations away, who shared the same language and culture of the original Twelve. To you, they mean nothing.

i have never made this claim.

Yet you accept certain books of the bible that were canonized by the same men!!!They only alternative to development is reductionism.

It is true they got some things right. Somethings wrong. They are not infallible even if it is claimed to be guided by the HS.

COLOR=“red”]Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

Does the creed say you can communicate with the saints who have died?

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.

1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.

Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.

Now we are back to you dividing God’s love into compartments, which is against scripture.

Heb. 12:1 - we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses, our family in heaven. We are not separated. The “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) refers to a great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners (us on earth), and many tiers of seats occupied by the saints (in heaven) rising up like a cloud. The “martures” are not mere spectators (“theatai”), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience to God’s promises and cheer us on in our race to heaven. They are no less than our family in heaven.

Now we are back to you dividing God’s family, which is against scripture.
The probelm with your position here is that there is no mention or hint of any communication between us and those in heaven. It may sound reasonable but it has no grounding in the scriptures and is therefore a product of the imaginations of men.

 

[EphelDuath]

Throughout this topic, I’m seeing a lot of examples of people praying FOR the dead, but yet to see a verse supporting prayer TO the dead.

Am I wrong?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Go to any cemetary in the world and you’ll see people doing it–even Protestants.

Ask yoursef this: Are all of those people idiots?

 

[Techno2000]

Throughout this topic, I’m seeing a lot of examples of people praying FOR the dead, but yet to see a verse supporting prayer TO the dead.

Am I wrong?

Latin Vulgate
Douay-Rheims Bible
2 Machabees 12:
Second Book Of Machabees
| Chapter 12 |

46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

 

[MariaG]

Hi Gillian

Hi

I do think saints on heaven to pray for us but it not for us to pray or ask them from earth. from earth only Holy Spirit do that.

Where in scripture do you believe it tells us not to do this?

in literually sense saints are dead as their bodies still in graves not the souls that the context (dead from earth viewpoint)
in literually sense saints are alive in heaven and sinners are alive in hell
in spiritaul sense saints had life, sinners are dead without God so refece naturelly dead as in hell for same reason

Yes their bodies are dead but we know that they are truly alive in Christ, yes? So they are not dead but alive.

Mark 12:25-27

25] For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
26] And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
27] He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong."

You are correct but you do not take it to the logical conclusion. If there is a difference between those who have died, and we know that the saints are alive, while those who are in hell are dead, how can the prohibition to speak to the dead apply to saints who are not dead?

only Holy Spirit do that through Jesus, begin one meditor between us and God

because Jesus arose from tomb both Man and God in soul and body unlike saints of course and more

Yes, only Jesus is the mediator between us and God. But how does asking others to pray for you, something done repeatedly throughout scripture, contradict that?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Doesn’t your church say it does not know who is in heaven except for a few?

That is correct. We do not know for certainty all who are in heaven.

Secondly, you have no way of knowing if they can even hear your prayers.

You again are correct. We have no surety if we ask for the prayers of say, a loved one, who was not a martyr, or declared a saint by the Church.

But we do know several things. We know that the prohibition to speak to the dead was specifically speaking against the occult and those who wished to conjure the dead for secret information. We also know that God knows the intent of our hearts. And there is a vast difference between standing at your mother’s grave and asking her to pray for you and trying to conjure up the dead for information.

The scriptures don’t teach it and that is the only way you could since they are revealtion.

No, scripture specifically tells us to hold onto tradition whether by word or by letter. Asking saints to pray for us is part of that tradition. And we can verify this by looking at history and see that there were requests written on the tombs of the saints, asking them to pray for those on earth.

Do you know specifically who has been condemned and who has not?

All you are doing here is taking a “shot gun” approach and hope you hit something. Since you don’t know and can’t know who is in heaven, you have no way to know if anyone really hears your prayers. You can have no confidence your prayers are heard.

I have every confidence that my prayers are heard. I KNOW that they are heard by God. And I have faith that if I should ask for the prayers of someone who is not in fact in heaven, God will know the intent of my heart.

I personally however, do not ask for the prayers of anyone who has not been declared in heaven by the Church, though I frequently pray FOR those who have died, and I personally do not know if they alive in Christ or truly dead, since scripture declares that this is a good and righteous thing to do.

I deny it because the scriptures don’t teach it. Rather it does teach that we do have a great high priest in Christ who does intercede for us before the FATHER.

Not so. It is a matter of truth and what do the scriptures teach about how and to whom we are to pray to. The idea of praying to a saint is totally unknown to the scripture

Although this was written in the post that originally quoted me, but these are not my words, I’ll still respond

I disagree that the scriptures do not teach it. They teach it implicitly and it is part of the Oral Tradition we were told to hold fast to, as long as one is defining “praying to” as asking and not saying that “pray to” is the same as praying to God.

And again, unless you are saying Paul is denying Christ is the sole mediator, there is no contradiction to asking saints in heaven to pray for us.

Christ’s role as mediator is very different from intercessory prayer which is common throughout scripture.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Would you happen to have some scripture references?

There are couple of things you can do to demonstrate this. One is context. Does the context tell us that some kind of communication is going on with those who have died and those here on earth? If you can show me that, then your claim will have some merit.

The issue though is communication. Can they hear your prayers?

Can you show me these other scriptures?

Again this does not address the communications issue.

Respectfully, there is no mention of those who are “asleep” in Christ being called dead in Christian history or scripture until quite recently.

Scripture quite emphatically denies that people whose bodies have died are dead. To continue to insist that they are “dead” saints instead of saints that are alive in Christ contradicts the plain words of scripture.

Please show me one scripture verse that tells us that those who are asleep in Christ, are dead saints.
i am using dead in the common way we understand death. There physical bodies are dead and the scriptures say they are “asleep” and not active.

Every analogy has its limitations.

How do you know this is the case?

There is not one scripture that supports the idea of praying to saints who are asleep. The only One you can have confidence that hears your prayers is God and God alone.
It is not enough to say there is no prohibition against it but you must demonstrate this is something commanded by scripture.

My limited time is up. I will answer this post, if it has not already been done so, when I am able.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Oh, I see many have already answered

Thanks all, I always feel wrong when I don’t finish conversations I have been in, but am endlessly thankful at the knowledgable Catholics who jump in.

See you all around, when time allows:wave:

 

[Gill79]

Hello

Where in scripture do you believe it tells us not to do this?

every time Jesus say something in prayer it never to different person but ask in his name
why would he say that ask in his name. or mean by his name God hear?

through bible of old and new yes they pray for the dead, differance is, they pray to GOD for the dead, that in in His name. concerning grief for dead and concerning asking GOD for mircale. i see noone in bible had ask or pray to any other but God. or in any case to pray or ask person in heaven to speak to jesus for them. since it no one else`s aurthity but Christ, the prayers is premitted from earth.

Yes their bodies are dead but we know that they are truly alive in Christ, yes? yes

You are correct but you do not take it to the logical conclusion. If there is a difference between those who have died, and we know that the saints are alive, while those who are in hell are dead, how can the prohibition to speak to the dead apply to saints who are not dead?

James 2.1 and 5

you who was dead in traspasses and sins

in that same sense
there literually in flesh sense and there literually in spirital sense.

Yes, only Jesus is the mediator between us and God. But how does asking others to pray for you, something done repeatedly throughout scripture, contradict that? asking others to pray for you is fine as long they on earth

but only pray in his name ask for, concering heaven…toward heaven. someone in heaven

okay out of curious, mary sure she is saint so no agumrnt concerning withever she not in heaven or not as we all can be sure she in heaven, but why pray to today saints in heaven so they ask jesus etc how u sure these people who died are assumed to be in heaven by pope law etc cos ever christians can fall away and u wont know but Spirit?

im thinking saints from hudreds years to now rather those named in bible how can we be sure they really there ? u must be then, for to ask saint not mentioned in bible or u ever met because saint passed by pope ? i dont know what it called to give people who died passed as saints by church statue

Gillian

 

[Jesusstreet]

Throughout this topic, I’m seeing a lot of examples of people praying FOR the dead, but yet to see a verse supporting prayer TO the dead.

Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong. There is no death, haven’t you heard? JESUS destroyed death on the cross, restoring the world to GRACE in GOD. Those who do not do the will of GOD our FATHER being wicked and refusing to repent, these are those who are under the judgement of death. There is no death anymore, there is only LIFE IN CHRIST, except for those who do not do what GOD OUR FATHER wants, these are the children of the devil who is already under the condemnation of death.

The first death is only death of the body, but we must have faith that JESUS spoke TRUTH that in JESUS we shall not die, though the body may die, we will LIVE because of our faith in obedience to CHRIST OUR LORD.

 

[Jesusstreet]

Go to any cemetary in the world and you’ll see people doing it–even Protestants.

Ask yoursef this: Are all of those people idiots?

Let us call those who do not see, ignorant. That the ignorant may also be saved, by their acceptance of TRUTH in repentance of the error of their ways, when they find TRUTH.

Matthew 5:22 *But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

by your measure you will be measured . … let us bless those who curse us, and pray for those who do not see as we do . … let us accept the repentant, and not prejudge the sinner.

Praying for the dearly departed, is a comendable thing, many souls are in purgatory and our prayers are as intercession . … now we want the Saints and JESUS to pray for us, and we ask one another to pray for us . … pray then for the souls in purgatory . … the soul you may save is your own . … and of course many others who need our intecession of prayers . . .

 

[nilofc]

First point,

Jesus came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it, He said this Himself. And He has done perfect obedience to law. One of those laws and the first one, I might say, that concerns human relations, is to honor they father and mother.

He honored his mother.

Second point,
We must imitate Christ.

The Church did not teach us to love and venerate Mary, Jesus beats us to it. And we’re just imitating Christ.

When you see a painting masterpiece and you say “WOW!! Marvelous! Nice!!”. I am sure the author will not say “Hey, why don’t you look at me, look at my pants, look at my shirt too! Stop looking at my masterpiece”

God’s masterpiece is Mary. And when we look at Mary, we see that her soul magnifies God.

Mother Mary said that “all generations will call me Blessed”. If you don’t, you are not fulfilling bible prophecy. Think of it.

You cannot have Jesus as your King, if you will not have Mary as your Queen.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

My point was the ludicrousness of denying prayer to the saints when you can go to any cemetary in the world and see people doing it!

How many Protestants go to cemetaries and speak and pray to their relatives?

Prayer to the dead who really are alive has always been the case.

Protestants who want to deny it have to not only deny Catholic teaching but human experience!

Who would want somebody to do that?

Satan!

 

[nilofc]

Throughout this topic, I’m seeing a lot of examples of people praying FOR the dead, but yet to see a verse supporting prayer TO the dead.

Am I wrong?

When scriptures tells us about not to pray to the dead, the scripture is referring to the occult.

Heaven is the abode of the living. The saints in heaven that we pray to are NOT dead. They are more alive than we are.

 

[nilofc]

Jesus is the mediator between God and Man.

But isn’t Jesus God too?

He’s not only the Son of God, but also “God the Son”.

I advise that before you go to Jesus, go to Mother Mary and she’ll arrange for something as she did in the wedding in Cana when she asked her Son to provide.

“Do whatever He tells you.” is Mother Mary’s response to you when you are made ready.

Jesus will not refuse Mother Mary because he loves His mother so much. Mother Mary is the surest and the easiest way to Jesus.