The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

[justasking4]

Go to any cemetary in the world and you’ll see people doing it–even Protestants.

Ask yoursef this: Are all of those people idiots?

Just because you may see people doing this doesn’t mean its true.

 

[justasking4]

MariaG;2568282]That is correct. We do not know for certainty all who are in heaven.

Then you can no confidence in these prayers.

You again are correct. We have no surety if we ask for the prayers of say, a loved one, who was not a martyr, or declared a saint by the Church.

Huh? I’m confused. i keeping hearing of this “Communion of Saints” as being the basis for praying to these saints and yet you say that you have no certainity who is in heaven. You also have no certainity either in who specifically can hear your prayes either.

But we do know several things. We know that the prohibition to speak to the dead was specifically speaking against the occult and those who wished to conjure the dead for secret information.

Actually a case could be made that this practice is derived from this. The 2 are really not that much different.

We also know that God knows the intent of our hearts. And there is a vast difference between standing at your mother’s grave and asking her to pray for you and trying to conjure up the dead for information.

I agree there is some difference but its not as great as you think. Any communication with the dead is forbidden.

No, scripture specifically tells us to hold onto tradition whether by word or by letter. Asking saints to pray for us is part of that tradition.

The origin of this saying “to hold onto tradition whether by word or by letter” comes specifically from the apostle Paul and in all his writings he never exhorts this praying to those who have died.
The “tradition” you must be referring to is not grounded in apostles teachings but in the opinion of fallen men.

And we can verify this by looking at history and see that there were requests written on the tombs of the saints, asking them to pray for those on earth.

All this shows is that some early Christians coming out of paganism still retained pagan beliefs. We know this is the case because the scriptures never teach praying to saints.

I have every confidence that my prayers are heard. I KNOW that they are heard by God. And I have faith that if I should ask for the prayers of someone who is not in fact in heaven, God will know the intent of my heart.

Your confidence is not grounded in the scriptures but on your own personal subjective expierences.

I personally however, do not ask for the prayers of anyone who has not been declared in heaven by the Church, though I frequently pray FOR those who have died, and I personally do not know if they alive in Christ or truly dead, since scripture declares that this is a good and righteous thing to do.

What do you think of those catholics who pray to “saints” who have not been “declared in heaven” by the church?
Are they doing something they should not be doing?
What would you say to them if they have the same kind of confidence you have?

Although this was written in the post that originally quoted me, but these are not my words, I’ll still respond

I disagree that the scriptures do not teach it. They teach it implicitly and it is part of the Oral Tradition we were told to hold fast to, as long as one is defining “praying to” as asking and not saying that “pray to” is the same as praying to God.

The problem with using the “implicit” argument is that you could prove almost anything by it. Can you give me a couple of specific verses that you think it “implicitedly” says this?

And again, unless you are saying Paul is denying Christ is the sole mediator, there is no contradiction to asking saints in heaven to pray for us.

Paul is not denying Christ but the catholic church is with this teaching.

Christ’s role as mediator is very different from intercessory prayer which is common throughout scripture.

God Bless,
Maria

What your church has done is to add another “layer” between Christ and man. Our prayers don’t need any assistence from anyone who has died. Christ alone is our one and only mediator between us and God.

 

[justasking4]

nilofc;2568818]Jesus is the mediator between God and Man.

But isn’t Jesus God too?

He’s not only the Son of God, but also “God the Son”.

I advise that before you go to Jesus, go to Mother Mary and she’ll arrange for something as she did in the wedding in Cana when she asked her Son to provide.

“Do whatever He tells you.” is Mother Mary’s response to you when you are made ready.

Jesus will not refuse Mother Mary because he loves His mother so much. Mother Mary is the surest and the easiest way to Jesus.

There is no basis to make this claim in scripture. It is in the scriptures alone that tells us in whom to pray to and why. This kind of example is not biblical. Jesus nor His apostles ever taught this kind of thing.

 

[bankerdavid]

There is no basis to make this claim in scripture. It is in the scriptures alone that tells us in whom to pray to and why. This kind of example is not biblical. Jesus nor His apostles ever taught this kind of thing.

The basis is the wedding feast at Cana. Mary appealed to Jesus saying ‘They have no wine’. Jesus deferred to his Mother’s request though his hour had not yet come.

Further, when Solomon was king, who was the Queen? His mother, who had her own throne, and Solomon prostrated himself before his mother. The court knew that, if they asked Bathsheba for a favor, if Bathsheba would go to Solomon, it would be granted.

Since Mary is the Queen of Heaven, with Jesus our Lord as King, he listens to his Mother’s requests, and cannot deny her request.

Besides which, we don’t believe in Sola Scriptura, but also hold to the Traditions of our faith, and the teaching of the Magesterium. The early Church Fathers, many of whom knew the Apostles, did teach and believe this about our Lady.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

If Jesus is the only mediator between us and God Then why does He let Paul make up for what is lacking in His afflictions for His body the church(Colosians 1:24)?

And if man can go directly to God with forgiveness of all sins why did Jesus breathe on the disciples After Calvary and give them the power to forgive and Retain sin?

One last question: Describe the burning love for God that Glories in the fact that everyone who has died is not allowed to pray for us or us for them!

Where is the joy in that Dead Faith?

If you were in heaven would you thank God that you could no longer pray for others?

Would God smile with joy at you not being able to pray for others?

Does the Dead Faith that doesn’t believe in us praying to the saints or us praying for them believe in the infinite smallness of God?

Can only the narow mind grasp such smallness?

 

[MariaG]

Then you can no confidence in these prayers.

Huh? I’m confused. i keeping hearing of this “Communion of Saints” as being the basis for praying to these saints and yet you say that you have no certainity who is in heaven. You also have no certainity either in who specifically can hear your prayes either.

No, I have great certainty of my prayers being heard. I said there is no certainty of ALL who are in heaven. But we do have certainty of some.

Actually a case could be made that this practice is derived from this. The 2 are really not that much different.

I agree there is some difference but its not as great as you think. Any communication with the dead is forbidden.

Again, why do you insist on calling the saints in heaven dead in DIRECT contradiction of Scripture?

The saints are not dead and it is only a recent manmade tradition that seems to deny Christ’s victory over death that insists on calling the saints in heaven dead

The origin of this saying “to hold onto tradition whether by word or by letter” comes specifically from the apostle Paul and in all his writings he never exhorts this praying to those who have died.
The “tradition” you must be referring to is not grounded in apostles teachings but in the opinion of fallen men.

I disagree. I will not reiterate the arguments again since you cannot even seem to grasp the basic that the saints in heaven are alive and are not dead.

All this shows is that some early Christians coming out of paganism still retained pagan beliefs. We know this is the case because the scriptures never teach praying to saints.

Again, I disagree. If it was just some of the followers, I would agree with you, but it was not. It was also leaders of the Church who spoke on the communion of Saints, as understood by the Catholic Church.

To agree with you, I would have to believe that God allowed His Church to be wrong from the very beginning and that those who came along 1500 years later were the ones who understood the teachings of the apostles better than those who lived with them. I would have to believe people who don’t even claim to know what the oral tradition that we were told to hold fast to IS!

Your confidence is not grounded in the scriptures but on your own personal subjective expierences.

Again, I disagree, but will not put forth, again all the scriptural arguments since you will not even stop calling the saints in heaven dead.

Christ’s sacrifice was victory over death. He is not the God of the dead but the God of the living. You cannot let go of your manmade tradition of calling the saints in heaven dead even when scripture EXPLICITLY says different.

What do you think of those catholics who pray to “saints” who have not been “declared in heaven” by the church?
Are they doing something they should not be doing?
What would you say to them if they have the same kind of confidence you have?

Good questions.

What do I think of them? I really don’t. To do so, I would have to judge what they THOUGHT they were doing and only God can judge the heart and thoughts of a person.

And especially if they had the same confidence that I did, they are doing nothing wrong at all. It would be no different than asking someone here on earth that you THINK is a Christian, but really isn’t, to pray for you. God doens’t find a person in the wrong who asks for prayers of someone who they think is a Christian, a saint, but really isn’t.

The problem with using the “implicit” argument is that you could prove almost anything by it. Can you give me a couple of specific verses that you think it “implicitedly” says this?

I repeatedly have.

But again, since you continue to deny Christ’s sacrifice and victory over death by insisting on calling the saints in heaven dead contradicting EXPLICIT scripture, I certainly will not go over the implicit scritpure again with you when you are blinded to such an explicit truth that God is the God of the living, yet insist on calling those whose BODIES have died dead when they are more alive than you and I.

 

[MariaG]

Paul is not denying Christ but the catholic church is with this teaching.

Absolutely false. You just continue to insist that asking for the prayers of saints in heaven is the same as Christ’s role, when instead, asking the saints in heaven is the same as asking the saints on earth for prayers.

Since they are all alive, we can ask them to pray for us.

**1544 **Everything that the priesthood of the Old Covenant prefigured finds its fulfillment in Christ Jesus, the “one mediator between God and men.” The Christian tradition considers Melchizedek, “priest of God Most High,” as a prefiguration of the priesthood of Christ, the unique “high priest after the order of Melchizedek”; “holy, blameless, unstained,” “by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified,” that is, by the unique sacrifice of the cross.

What your church has done is to add another “layer” between Christ and man. Our prayers don’t need any assistence from anyone who has died. Christ alone is our one and only mediator between us and God.

Their bodies may have died, but do you truly understand that they are in fact, alive in Christ?

Scripture is filled with saints asking other saints to prayer for them.

There is no layer that has been added. We do not HAVE to ask other saints to pray for us, but we can.

Christ alone is our sole mediator between us and God. But to think that asking for any saint, whether on earth or in heaven, contradicts that, is saying that Paul contradicts it since he repeatedly asks for the prayers of his brethren.

:bible1: Mark 12:27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.

Until you can realize, TRULY understand, that Christ has conquered death and the saints in heaven are more alive than you and I, I am afraid you will never understand the communion of Saints.

 

[MariaG]

If Jesus is the only mediator between us and God Then why does He let Paul make up for what is lacking in His afflictions for His body the church(Colosians 1:24)?

Jesus is the sole mediator and this is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Intercessory prayer of the saints do not in anyway say that Christ is not our sole mediator between God and man. You seem to imply that Christ’s sacrifice was not enough and we need to make up for what is lacking.

This is not the teaching of the Catholic Church.

If this was not what you were saying, you need to be more clear.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I was referring to redemptive suffering which Catholics do believe in and the act of offering things up to the Lord.

Jesus let Paul do that for the church and he lets all of us offer up our sufferings for the church.

Jesus is indeed the sole mediator–but the same Jesus that lets us suffer with him and join our suffering to His in redeeming the world is the same Jesus that lets us intercede for one another in prayer–both here on Earth and with the saints in Heaven and Purgatory outside this Earth.

Prayer to the saints asking for help is a No Brainer! It is true!

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I was referring to redemptive suffering which Catholics do believe in and the act of offering things up to the Lord.

Jesus let Paul do that for the church and he lets all of us offer up our sufferings for the church.

Jesus is indeed the sole mediator–but the same Jesus that lets us suffer with him and join our suffering to His in redeeming the world is the same Jesus that lets us intercede for one another in prayer–both here on Earth and with the saints in Heaven and Purgatory outside this Earth.

Prayer to the saints asking for help is a No Brainer! It is true!

 

[MariaG]

I was referring to redemptive suffering which Catholics do believe in and the act of offering things up to the Lord.

Jesus let Paul do that for the church and he lets all of us offer up our sufferings for the church.

Jesus is indeed the sole mediator–but the same Jesus that lets us suffer with him and join our suffering to His in redeeming the world is the same Jesus that lets us intercede for one another in prayer–both here on Earth and with the saints in Heaven and Purgatory outside this Earth.

Prayer to the saints asking for help is a No Brainer! It is true!

Yes, Jesus does let us unite our sufferings to His and intercede for one another.

I don’t think I agree with you on it being a no brainer It IS true, but it is complicated for the non-Catholic to understand. First, people need to understand what it isn’t, and then what it is.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[justasking4]

MariaG;2575141]No, I have great certainty of my prayers being heard. I said there is no certainty of ALL who are in heaven. But we do have certainty of some.
What is that certainity based on? How could your church know with any certainity that those who have died can hear your specific prayers?

How do they know a specific saint has the ability to hear hundreds and thousands of prayers at once?

Again, why do you insist on calling the saints in heaven dead in DIRECT contradiction of Scripture?

They are dead in this sense:
1- their bodies are dead i.e. in the grave
2- they are asleep which is the word the the scriptures use for the death of a saint.

The saints are not dead and it is only a recent manmade tradition that seems to deny Christ’s victory over death that insists on calling the saints in heaven dead

Hopefully the above explaniation will clear that up for you.

I disagree. I will not reiterate the arguments again since you cannot even seem to grasp the basic that the saints in heaven are alive and are not dead.

No need to. What you have not done is to demonstrate that they can hear your prayers nor have the ability to do anything about your prayers. There is no evidence for this.

Again, I disagree. If it was just some of the followers, I would agree with you, but it was not. It was also leaders of the Church who spoke on the communion of Saints, as understood by the Catholic Church.

Do these early leaders speak of the communion of saints having the ability to hear you?

To agree with you, I would have to believe that God allowed His Church to be wrong from the very beginning and that those who came along 1500 years later were the ones who understood the teachings of the apostles better than those who lived with them. I would have to believe people who don’t even claim to know what the oral tradition that we were told to hold fast to IS!

What you are doing by holding this view is to go against the scriptures warning of false teachers in the church who with their false teachings are allowed to flourish. Such is the case with praying to the saints. Its not taught in the scriptures anywhere.

Again, I disagree, but will not put forth, again all the scriptural arguments since you will not even stop calling the saints in heaven dead.

Christ’s sacrifice was victory over death. He is not the God of the dead but the God of the living. You cannot let go of your manmade tradition of calling the saints in heaven dead even when scripture EXPLICITLY says different.

The issue at this point is not that they are alive but can they hear you?

Good questions.

What do I think of them? I really don’t. To do so, I would have to judge what they THOUGHT they were doing and only God can judge the heart and thoughts of a person.

What if they prayed out loud to a relative who had died?

And especially if they had the same confidence that I did, they are doing nothing wrong at all. It would be no different than asking someone here on earth that you THINK is a Christian, but really isn’t, to pray for you. God doens’t find a person in the wrong who asks for prayers of someone who they think is a Christian, a saint, but really isn’t.

If what you say is true, then why did God condemn the worship of Baal in the OT? Surely they thought they were worshipping and praying to God

I repeatedly have.

But again, since you continue to deny Christ’s sacrifice and victory over death by insisting on calling the saints in heaven dead contradicting EXPLICIT scripture, I certainly will not go over the implicit scritpure again with you when you are blinded to such an explicit truth that God is the God of the living, yet insist on calling those whose BODIES have died dead when they are more alive than you and I.

 

[justasking4]

MariaG;2575143]Absolutely false. You just continue to insist that asking for the prayers of saints in heaven is the same as Christ’s role, when instead, asking the saints in heaven is the same as asking the saints on earth for prayers.

Since they are all alive, we can ask them to pray for us.

All you need to do is to show from scripture one verse of someone praying to a saint in heaven. Since they are alive, they should be able to hear your prayer. Where then does scripture show this?

**1544 **Everything that the priesthood of the Old Covenant prefigured finds its fulfillment in Christ Jesus, the “one mediator between God and men.” The Christian tradition considers Melchizedek, “priest of God Most High,” as a prefiguration of the priesthood of Christ, the unique “high priest after the order of Melchizedek”; “holy, blameless, unstained,” “by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified,” that is, by the unique sacrifice of the cross.

Their bodies may have died, but do you truly understand that they are in fact, alive in Christ?

Scripture is filled with saints asking other saints to prayer for them.

In the scriptures do you have an example of someone who has died like Stephen and someone praying specifically to him?

There is no layer that has been added. We do not HAVE to ask other saints to pray for us, but we can.

Do you pray to a saint and that saint takes your request to Jesus?

Christ alone is our sole mediator between us and God. But to think that asking for any saint, whether on earth or in heaven, contradicts that, is saying that Paul contradicts it since he repeatedly asks for the prayers of his brethren.

The brethren Paul is speaking of are those who are alive on the earth. He never teaches praying to those in heaven.

:bible1: Mark 12:27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.

Until you can realize, TRULY understand, that Christ has conquered death and the saints in heaven are more alive than you and I, I am afraid you will never understand the communion of Saints.

I do understand what your claims are and i also understand what the scriptures teach and they are not the same. Your claim goes far beyond what the scriptures teach.

 

[MariaG]

What is that certainity based on? How could your church know with any certainity that those who have died can hear your specific prayers?

I do not believe your question is how one is declared a saint, a long process that involves the verification of at least 2 miracles that occur AFTER the death of the person?

My certainty is based on the fact that scripture tells us that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. That we will be led to all truth. The Church, whom scripture tells us is the pillar and foundation of truth, declared it so, therefore I can trust it to be so.

My certainty is slightly different than that of other Catholics since I came from a bible alone Church. I first had Christ and the Scriptures so my beliefs are very much like, the church that “searched the scriptures” for the truth of Paul’s words.

I believe it to be so because of my trust in Christ and in His word.

How do they know a specific saint has the ability to hear hundreds and thousands of prayers at once?

Through the grace of God. The saint would have no such ability separate from God for the saints in heaven are not God. But with the grace of God, nothing is impossible.

They are dead in this sense:
1- their bodies are dead i.e. in the grave
2- they are asleep which is the word the the scriptures use for the death of a saint.

Asleep, yes. If you wish to claim that they could not hear for they are asleep, that would be fine. I disagree, but at least you are not arguing that it is against scripture because to ask saints in heaven to pray for us because of a prohibition of speaking with the dead. But when you claim the saint is dead, and that we are not allowed to speak with them because we are not supposed to communicate with the dead, that is a complete contradiction of scripture. They are not dead, but alive in Christ and that prohibition does not apply to those who are alive or even just asleep.

Hopefully the above explaniation will clear that up for you.

Only if you cease to continue to say that we can’t ask the saints in heaven to pray for us because they are dead because communication with the dead is prohibited.

No need to. What you have not done is to demonstrate that they can hear your prayers nor have the ability to do anything about your prayers. There is no evidence for this.

I disagree. We can see in scripture that there is the cloud of witnesses, as well as the elders who present the prayers to God.

I believe that there is ample evidence, both scriptural and historical that have both been presented, to prove that asking saints in heaven to pray for us is part of the oral tradition scripture tells us to hold fast to.

Do these early leaders speak of the communion of saints having the ability to hear you?

Yup

From CA Library The Intercession of the Saints
Origen

“But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (*Prayer *11 [A.D. 233]).

What you are doing by holding this view is to go against the scriptures warning of false teachers in the church who with their false teachings are allowed to flourish. Such is the case with praying to the saints. Its not taught in the scriptures anywhere.

Again, I disagree.

There are many scripture at Scripture Catholic you could go and look at on this subject of the Saints.

Or here is a list of many of them.

Rom 15:30 - join me by your prayers to God on my behalf
Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25 - pray for us
2Thess 1:11 - we always pray for you
2Thess 3:1 - finally, brothers, pray for us
Eph 6:18-19 - making supplication for all the saints & for me
Tob 12:12 - angel presents Tobit & Sarah’s prayer to God
Ps 148 - David calls upon angels
Zech 1:12 - angel intercedes for Jerusalem
Mk 12:25, Mt 22:30 - men in heaven are as the angels
Rev 5:8 - those in heaven offer prayers of the holy ones to God

 

[MariaG]

The issue at this point is not that they are alive but can they hear you?

Yes, Scripture tells us they are like angels in heaven and the angels in heaven can hear us also.

What if they prayed out loud to a relative who had died?

If what you say is true, then why did God condemn the worship of Baal in the OT? Surely they thought they were worshipping and praying to God

Again, as I suspected, you still do not understand what “prayer to the saints” is.

With the language shift, prayer to the the saints would be better understood as asking the saints in heaven to pray for us.

IF a person “prayed to” a dead relative, as they would pray to God, they are completely wrong to do so. We are to worship no one but God.

But Catholics do not teach that we “pray to” relatives as if they were God, but more accurately with todays language shift, we ask our relatives to add their prayers to ours to GOD. We ask the saints in heaven to pray with us. We don’t pray to them as if they had the power to answer prayer like God Himself.

God condemned the WORSHIP of false Gods. We do NOT WORSHIP the saints in heaven or pray to them with the narrowed language of today. We ASK them to pray for us, just as we ask fellow saints on earth to pray for us.

This is important. WE do NOT pray to saints. Not in the way you continue to seem to think contrary to my repeated attempts to explain otherwise.

WE ASK saints to pray for us and add their prayers to ours to GOD alone.

Try reading the following section from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

“YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND”

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

All you need to do is to show from scripture one verse of someone praying to a saint in heaven. Since they are alive, they should be able to hear your prayer. Where then does scripture show this?

.

It shows us implicitly. We will be like angels in heaven. And we see in scripture that the angels in heaven hear prayer. The previous post has the references.

In the scriptures do you have an example of someone who has died like Stephen and someone praying specifically to him?

No.

Do you pray to a saint and that saint takes your request to Jesus?

No. Not in your understanding of “pray to”.

I will ask a saint to pray for me and ADD their prayers to mine that I have already prayed to God, just as I would ask someone at Church to pray for me.

The brethren Paul is speaking of are those who are alive on the earth. He never teaches praying to those in heaven.

Again, we do not “pray to” those in heaven as you keep seeming to think.

Paul repeatedly teaches that we should ask other Saints to pray for each other and this is what Catholic Christians do.

I do understand what your claims are and i also understand what the scriptures teach and they are not the same. Your claim goes far beyond what the scriptures teach

Sadly, I do not think you do yet understand.

We do not pray to the dead. We do not pray to the saints.

We ask the saint who are alive in Christ to add their prayers to ours to God because the prayers of the righteous man availeth much.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[justasking4]

Part 1

MariaG;2576326]I do not believe your question is how one is declared a saint, a long process that involves the verification of at least 2 miracles that occur AFTER the death of the person?

Even with this process a person can not know since this process is so subjective. Also, isn’t it wrong to pary to someone who is not a declared saint?]

My certainty is based on the fact that scripture tells us that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. That we will be led to all truth. The Church, whom scripture tells us is the pillar and foundation of truth, declared it so, therefore I can trust it to be so.

You may want to go back and reread this passage. For one it does not say that the church " the pillar and foundation of truth" but rather a support of it. Big difference.

My certainty is slightly different than that of other Catholics since I came from a bible alone Church. I first had Christ and the Scriptures so my beliefs are very much like, the church that “searched the scriptures” for the truth of Paul’s words.

When you came to the catholic church were you aware of all these unbilical doctrines that it teaches?
Did you know the Scriptures that well and did compare what they taught with them?

I believe it to be so because of my trust in Christ and in His word.

Through the grace of God. The saint would have no such ability separate from God for the saints in heaven are not God. But with the grace of God, nothing is impossible.

You are assuming this. No one knows who specifically is in heaven nor if they can hear your prayers.

Asleep, yes. If you wish to claim that they could not hear for they are asleep, that would be fine. I disagree,

You disagree on what grounds? If a person is asleep they cannot hear nor do anything.

but at least you are not arguing that it is against scripture because to ask saints in heaven to pray for us because of a prohibition of speaking with the dead.

But when you claim the saint is dead, and that we are not allowed to speak with them because we are not supposed to communicate with the dead, that is a complete contradiction of scripture. They are not dead, but alive in Christ and that prohibition does not apply to those who are alive or even just asleep.

There is not getting around this. They are dead at least to us in this world. It is a form of communication with the dead and is forbidden

 

[justasking4]

part 2

Only if you cease to continue to say that we can’t ask the saints in heaven to pray for us because they are dead because communication with the dead is prohibited.

Go ask your priest if people that he has done funerals and considers them dead.

I disagree. We can see in scripture that there is the cloud of witnesses, as well as the elders who present the prayers to God.

Even here the doctrine fails for the mere fact there is no communication going on between the cloud of witnesses. Look at the context. Look at the verse and you will see that no communcation between the cloud of witnesses is happening nor taught.

I believe that there is ample evidence, both scriptural and historical that have both been presented, to prove that asking saints in heaven to pray for us is part of the oral tradition scripture tells us to hold fast to.

Not so. Look at any verse in context and you will find that it does not support this idea of asking saints in heaven tp pray for you.

Yup

From CA Library The Intercession of the Saints
Origen

“But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (*Prayer *11 [A.D. 233]).

Half right. Christ does interecede for us but the angels or souls of the saints do not. This statement shows how early false teachings are coming into the church.

Again, I disagree.

There are many scripture at Scripture Catholic you could go and look at on this subject of the Saints.

Or here is a list of many of them.

Rom 15:30 - join me by your prayers to God on my behalf
Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25 - pray for us
2Thess 1:11 - we always pray for you
2Thess 3:1 - finally, brothers, pray for us
Eph 6:18-19 - making supplication for all the saints & for me
Tob 12:12 - angel presents Tobit & Sarah’s prayer to God
Ps 148 - David calls upon angels
Zech 1:12 - angel intercedes for Jerusalem
Mk 12:25, Mt 22:30 - men in heaven are as the angels
Rev 5:8 - those in heaven offer prayers of the holy ones to God

Look the NT passages and note the context. In all of these verses, not one supports the idea of ****praying to ****saints in heaven. Not one.

 

[epostle]

Your James White arguments are boring.

 

[lsburk]

The real problem here is the assumption that all truth lies within the pages of the Bible. Just because scripture does not mention something does not make it less a truth. I.E. The Trinity.

The implication of the argument is sola scriptura.

Sola Scriptura was a reformer’s pipe dream.**