The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

[justasking4]

runandsew;2600715]He doesn’t refer to Mary as his queen in the Gospels

You are correct. Nor do any of the writers of the NT.

But God inspired the authors of the bible to write the following things:

Since the time of Solomon, there didn’t appear a time that the King of Judah didn’t have the queen mother sitting at his right side.
This is mention many times in scripture.
You read in Revelation that a woman appeared in heaven with a crown, among other things that verse refers to (the church, Israel), one of them is Mary.

So let’s put this together. Jesus is the fulfillment of the King of Judah, the King of Judah had his queen mother at his side of the throne, and Jesus is on his throne in heaven, and the book of Revelation mentions that the mother the child, which we would both agree is referring to Jesus,is in heaven with a crown.

The Disciples asked if they could sit at the right side of Jesus in heaven, but Jesus said that it was up to the father to decide who sat there.

I think Scripture shows who the person that God decided on is.

Since the NT never uses these passages to say what you are saying you are reading catholic doctrine into these passages. If i’m not mistaken, Mary as queen was unknown not only to the apostles but the entire church for centuries. For such an important as queen to be unknown is mind boggling to say the least.

 

[holy_wood]

I totally love how those who say praying to the saints is unscriptural totally ignored two scriptural supports for it.

I guess we finally see that there true agenda is not getting to the truth but spreading anti-catholic propaganda.

 

[nilofc]

Since the scriptures are the only inspired-inerrant writings in the church (i’m sure catholics would agree with this) then this is the best starting point for this discussion. After all the catholic church does want its doctrines grounded in the scriptures whenever possible.

Who said that the scripture is the ONLY inspired-inerrant writings in the Church?

1 Tim 3:15 - “The pillar and bulwark of truth is the church”

The Holy Spirit reveals all truths to the Catholic Church which in turn revelas it to the world. Thus, we gave the bible to the world.

So regarding faith and morals, you should listen to what the Catholic Church says for she teaches the truth. Otherwise, you woouldn’t even have the bible to quote your brand of theology from.

 

[MariaG]

You are correct. Nor do any of the writers of the NT.

Since the NT never uses these passages to say what you are saying you are reading catholic doctrine into these passages. If i’m not mistaken, Mary as queen was unknown not only to the apostles but the entire church for centuries. For such an important as queen to be unknown is mind boggling to say the least.

For the first 3 centuries, the church was still defining and defending doctrine of Christ. One would not start talking about the Queen mother until one was firmly established as King first.

But we see as early as the 4th century that Mary was referred to in writing as Queen.

We will be led to all truth, scripture tells us this.

One first needs to understand who Christ is before one can understand the role of Mary. It is significant that Evangelicals are rediscovering Mary, and talking about Mary in writing, in about the same number of years it took for the Church founded by Christ to do so.

We will be led to all truth. Christ is the way and the Truth. Christ is King. And as per scripture references to Kings, the mother of the King is Queen. To deny Mary the title of Queen is to deny Christ the title of King.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[nilofc]

For the first 3 centuries, the church was still defining and defending doctrine of Christ. One would not start talking about the Queen mother until one was firmly established as King first.

But we see as early as the 4th century that Mary was referred to in writing as Queen.

We will be led to all truth, scripture tells us this.

One first needs to understand who Christ is before one can understand the role of Mary. It is significant that Evangelicals are rediscovering Mary, and talking about Mary in writing, in about the same number of years it took for the Church founded by Christ to do so.

We will be led to all truth. Christ is the way and the Truth. Christ is King. And as per scripture references to Kings, His mother is Queen.

God Bless,
Maria

True. And if he truly wants to find out, I guess he needs to go and study more the Old Testament to be able to find out the tons of passages and proofs where Kings have their mothers as Queen. But we need to understand our protestant brothers, they do seek for the truth but haven’t really reached the finish line yet. And I admit that most catholics doesn’t know it too.

 

[MariaG]

I totally love how those who say praying to the saints is unscriptural totally ignored two scriptural supports for it.

I guess we finally see that there true agenda is not getting to the truth but spreading anti-catholic propaganda.

Respectfully, I disagree, at least in this case

When one has to rely on scripture alone and the leading of the Holy Spirit, one has to be completely positive that ones interpretation of scripture is correct. Many, many hours of bible study go into this.

Some are never able to get past the fact that they are actually mistaken in their interpretation of scripture. To do so, they feel they would lose all grounding they had. They never come to the realization that God did not leave them adrift. That God did not even just leave them the Holy Spirit and His Word. But that God left an authoritative Church behind to interpret His word and left a church behind that will always be the pillar and foundation of Truth.

I am ever thankful that I was led to the truth of the teachings of the Catholic Church, from which the rich Tradition of asking the whole body of Christ for prayers, has ever been practiced from the beginning of the Church, as seen by the very Early writings of the Church.

I find it sad when people errouneously apply the warnings of false teachers to the Catholic Church rather than use a little bit of logic and see that those who have come along, the “reformers”, are the ones with the false teachings, including scripture alone.

So I guess what I am saying is don’t be so sure of what the agenda is. There are very honest and truthful people out there whom the Holy Spirit just has not yet revealed the truth to, YET!

God Bless,
Maria

 

[justasking4]

MariaG;2610341]For the first 3 centuries, the church was still defining and defending doctrine of Christ. One would not start talking about the Queen mother until one was firmly established as King first.

That is already firmly established in the NT.

But we see as early as the 4th century that Mary was referred to in writing as Queen.

Think about this: 400 years before you start seeing this kind of unbiblical thinking in the church. Do you happen to know who wrote this and under what circumstances?

We will be led to all truth, scripture tells us this.

The scriptures never refer to Mary as a queen.

One first needs to understand who Christ is before one can understand the role of Mary. It is significant that Evangelicals are rediscovering Mary, and talking about Mary in writing, in about the same number of years it took for the Church founded by Christ to do so.

I

We will be led to all truth. Christ is the way and the Truth. Christ is King. And as per scripture references to Kings, the mother of the King is Queen. To deny Mary the title of Queen is to deny Christ the title of King.

God Bless,
Maria

Nonsense. To deny Mary as a queen is to be biblical since the scriptures never refer to her as such. The idea of her being a queen was also unknown for centuries. The church did not know her queen is absolutely incredible.

 

[nilofc]

Judging from what you have said, I know that you haven’t really gotten to in-depth study of the scriptures and the historical accounts, contextual meaning of the old testament.

Here’s one in the NT.

Revelation 12:
"Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. "

From the very beginning, God has already promised a co-redemptrix mentioned in Genesis. The seed of the woman…

The seed and the woman… reflect on that.

I just hope and pray that Jesus will forgive you for denying His mother whom He loves so much and have bestowed queenship over heaven and earth.

I wonder how you’re suppose to act in heaven knowing you deny the very person whom God loved so much and perfected.

 

[MariaG]

That is already firmly established in the NT.

Respectfully, you need to educate yourself on the history of the early Church. You are quite mistaken. Unlike today where everyone can have their own bible, many bibles, there were not many copies of the written word to study. (Although we can see from JW, Mormonism and Oneness Pentecostals that having your own bible does not decrease the likelyhood of misunderstanging the true nature of God .)

Here are a few all within the first few hundred years of Christianity that the Church had to vigourously defend against.

SABELLIANISM

Here, I just found an article that very briefly describes 3 different heresies, all involving the nature of God, in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th centeries.

The Great Heresies

Obviously detailed discussions of these would be better done in a new thread, but I truly recommend you to study the history of the Early Church. Scripture itself tells us that not everything Christ did was written down and as for the history of the Church, only a small part is contained in Scripture. A very important and inspired part to be sure!

You probably know many people who you believe are Saints, reformers and their lives. How many do you know that were after scripture and before the 1500’s?

I am running late today. Forgive me if I wait and answer the rest of your post later.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[KathleenElsie]

When I ask a Friend to pray for me am I praying to that friend? NO

So when I ask a Saint or Saints to pray for me I am not pray to them as I see them as my friends. Simple as this.

When I ask a favor of a friend am I praying to the friend? NO

So when I ask a Saint for a favor I am not praying to him or her. I am asking a favor of a friend.

SO SIMPLE

My friends, those with God and those still here on earth, are still that friends I can share with, talk to and ask favors from.

 

[justasking4]

nilofc;2617869]Judging from what you have said, I know that you haven’t really gotten to in-depth study of the scriptures and the historical accounts, contextual meaning of the old testament.

Great.Perhaps you can enlighten me.

Here’s one in the NT.

Revelation 12:
"Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. "

Do you know of anyone in the first 3 centuries that thought this passage was a reference to Mary?

From the very beginning, God has already promised a co-redemptrix mentioned in Genesis. The seed of the woman…

If this is the case then why don’t any OT or NT writers ever mention this? There is not one verse in the entire Bible that Mary is referred to as a “co-redemptrix”.

The seed and the woman… reflect on that.

Who is the woman in Genesis 3?

I just hope and pray that Jesus will forgive you for denying His mother whom He loves so much and have bestowed queenship over heaven and earth.

I wonder how you’re suppose to act in heaven knowing you deny the very person whom God loved so much and perfected.

My hope is that you will study the scriptures and see that it does not support the catholic doctrine that Mary is a queen, without sin, intercedes for anyone.

 

[justasking4]

When I ask a Friend to pray for me am I praying to that friend? NO

So when I ask a Saint or Saints to pray for me I am not pray to them as I see them as my friends. Simple as this.

When I ask a favor of a friend am I praying to the friend? NO

So when I ask a Saint for a favor I am not praying to him or her. I am asking a favor of a friend.

SO SIMPLE

My friends, those with God and those still here on earth, are still that friends I can share with, talk to and ask favors from.

It may be simple but its not biblical to pray to anyone but God alone. There is not one reference in the scriptures of anyone praying directly to a person who lived here on earth who is supposedly in heaven.

 

[justasking4]

MariaG;2620298]Respectfully, you need to educate yourself on the history of the early Church. You are quite mistaken. Unlike today where everyone can have their own bible, many bibles, there were not many copies of the written word to study. (Although we can see from JW, Mormonism and Oneness Pentecostals that having your own bible does not decrease the likelyhood of misunderstanging the true nature of God .)

What work on early church history would you recommend i read?

Here are a few all within the first few hundred years of Christianity that the Church had to vigourously defend against.

SABELLIANISM

Here, I just found an article that very briefly describes 3 different heresies, all involving the nature of God, in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th centeries.

The Great Heresies

What did the church of this time period depend on to counter these heresies?

Obviously detailed discussions of these would be better done in a new thread, but I truly recommend you to study the history of the Early Church.

See my request above.

Scripture itself tells us that not everything Christ did was written down and as for the history of the Church, only a small part is contained in Scripture. A very important and inspired part to be sure!

What exactly was this that Jesus taught and did that is not in gospels? Can you give me a couple of examples of it?

Did it have anything to do with praying to the saints?

You probably know many people who you believe are Saints, reformers and their lives. How many do you know that were after scripture and before the 1500’s?

Not sure what you are asking here. Can you clarify?

Anyone who is truly in Christ is a saint.

I am running late today. Forgive me if I wait and answer the rest of your post later.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[justasking4]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Why don’t you address the scriptures directly instead of attacking sola scriptura? Get a Bible and look the verses up that you think support praying to saints and look at the context. Read them carefully and see if there is any direct praying to a saint who is supposedly in heaven. See if it is really there.

Why not attack sola scriptura? That is the premise on which you are basing your argument, is it not? After all, your original question demands that we look at holy scripture as the final authority.

Do you believe that the scriptures are inspired-inerrant? Is this not a good place to start since it is the scriptures alone that are inspired-inerrant?
Even if you don’t believe they are the final authority, your church certainly desires to have its doctrines grounded in them. The issue is: are they?
What i have shown by the scriptures is that there is no teaching, exhortations or examples given that we are to pray to a saint in heaven.
Since that is the case, we must now turn our attention to history and see where these practices started and by whom.

You see, the Church established the Bible. Not the other way around.

Are you saying the church made the scriptures inspired-inerrant?

I know the Church is guided in ALL truth by the Holy Spirit.

Where did the church come up with this idea?

By definition of the Trinity, God is the Holy Spirit. Therefore God tells me, via the Church, that it is a “Holy and pleasing thing” that I pray to the saints for their intercession on my behalf to God the Father.

Your church may say this but the scriptures don’t teach such a thing. Jesus nor His apostles ever taught that a follower of Christ was ever to “pray to a saint” but only directly to God.

---

“In all things, pray.” - Padre Pio

 

[justasking4]

holy_wood;2609073]I totally love how those who say praying to the saints is unscriptural totally ignored two scriptural supports for it.

I don’t ignore the passages used but show that in context they are not saying what those who try to use them to support praying to the saints in incorrect.

I guess we finally see that there true agenda is not getting to the truth but spreading anti-catholic propaganda.

Not so. This is about the truth. That’s why studying the scriptures will help us to determine if such a thing was ever taught by them. What i have shown is that it is not a biblical doctrine.

 

[justasking4]

captaincoog;2597799]Why do Protestants spend so much time and energy trying, without success, to find fault with anything and everything to do with the Catholic Church.

I don’t go around trying to disprove the boogey-man - it doesn’t matter to me at all.

I don’t go around trying to prove the Mormons wrong, and they are far more into error than most mainline protestant groups. So why is it so with Protestants??

Do you consider yourself a follower of Christ? If so you have a responsiblity to help those who believe in error to see the truth.

Is it because all Protestant groups have their origins in a split with the Catholic Church some time in the past 500 or so years.

It is because this is the only way they can justify their relatively new religion?

Have you ever asked a protestant these questions?

If it wasn’t for the Church, they would not have anything else to protest against.

This is not true. If it was not for Christ there would be no church.

Is it a subconcious insecurity that the Church may be right, even if it’s a one in a milion shot?

So far on this thread its been shown its wrong on this doctine and practice.

I see a lot of them here asking questions like the OP, all of which have been done to death over and over again, and soundly proven wrong by the Catholic position.

Just wondering…

Instead of wondering why don’t you try to refute the scriptural position that praying to the saints is not a biblical practice?

 

[justasking4]

runandsew;2600687]John 19:26-27
When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.

Good point. Now where do we see Him in the gospels consulting her or telling others to look up specifically to her?

I would recommend that you do a little research on the theological reasons why Jesus used the term “women” in reference to His mother Mary.

 

[EphelDuath]

Now where do we see Him in the gospels consulting her or telling others to look up specifically to her?

It parallels the story of the Golden Calf. God was going to destroy Israel, but Moses convinces him not to. Righteous people can influence God. Since Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, she has such an influence. Now, you’ll see that a lot of people were asking Moses to do things on behalf of God, instead of just asking God to do it for them – they asked Moses for food, they asked Moses to stop the coming Egyptian army, etc. The only difference is that Mary and Moses are now in Heaven. Is there any reason to suggest they cannot hear you?

What exactly was this that Jesus taught and did that is not in gospels? Can you give me a couple of examples of it?

You can find some examples in the Apostolic Fathers and other NT books. Things like, one is saved by the grace of God through faith and works. Although he hints at it in some spots, he never outright says that’s how to attain salvation. Furthermore:

**John 21:25. **But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Standing in for Ferdinand Mary:

Although this thread topic touches upon the issue of Sola Scriptura in that it is the only authority recognized by some non-Catholics, it is not the primary issue that is the topic of this discussion, which is “The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!”, or clarified as a discussion of the Communion of Saints and their intercession for us and a study of the scriptural basis for (or against) that belief.

Please do not derail your thread by venturing off into a debate of Sola Scriptura, which is a perpetual favorite over in Apologetics.
Example: Defending "Praying To Saints"
Michael Francis

 

[MariaG]

Think about this: 400 years before you start seeing this kind of unbiblical thinking in the church. Do you happen to know who wrote this and under what circumstances?

The scriptures never refer to Mary as a queen.

First, I completely disagree that it is unbiblical to refer to the mother of the King as Queen. It is completely biblical as we see in the Old Testament that the mother of the King is referred to as the Queen.

We can see that the mother of the King is referred to as the King, and we see this is God’s inspired word. If it is appropriate to refer the the mother of the King, the King of the Davidic line as Queen, it is appropriate and biblical to give this title to the mother of THE King.

But again, I see that while this subject comes up when talking of the Saints, it surely is not the thrust of the thread. Forgive me. We can certainly start a new thread about whether or not calling Mary Queen is biblical or not, although I think ultimately we both know we will disagree. You seem to think things must be explicitly written in scripture, even though that concept is not in fact, biblical and in fact, contradicts the plain words of scripture themselves. But this too, is better off in another thread.

Nonsense. To deny Mary as a queen is to be biblical since the scriptures never refer to her as such. The idea of her being a queen was also unknown for centuries. The church did not know her queen is absolutely incredible

Using this logic, I would have to say that you must never refer to God as the Holy Trinity God is never referred to as the Trinity in scripture.

A word or title does not have to appear in scripture for it to be biblical in concept.

But maybe you would like to start a new thread on this. Mary, and the title of Queen? Or one on scripture alone and where this is found in scritpure?

God Bless,
Maria