The Seven Catholic Sacraments

[jphilapy]

My dear friend jphilapy!
And I said he didn’t because at this time the NT was “Sacred”/oral Tradition. It’s been written down only much later!

So you are arguing that Paul was practicing sacred tradition but was teaching sola scriptura? He was preaching what he didn’t practice?

No, not at all! They were searching the Scriptures for the messianic prophesies (like in Isaiah) which Paul certainly quoted to them!

They were Jewish they had traditions that were binding on jews. So what do you think the bereans did? They were oral tradition + scripture following jews but then for a brief time they practiced sola scriptura and then converted to oral tradition + scripture following christians? How is that evidence of sola scriptura?

No, you wouldn’t because he declared them the gospel (what we know now as NT) and in the beginning (until it was written down and canonised by the CC) the gospel was oral tradition.

If you wouldn’t then you are not practicing sola scriptura. As you said your self, if it isn’t in the scripture then you won’t believe it. Well that is just the point, oral teaching is not scripture.

That’s not the point. Or do you think the Jews had something like “Sacred Tradition”?

Your question is misleading.

Did the jews call it sacred tradition? I don’t know. But they had tradition and they believed it was binding on the jews as scripture so well attest. BTW This includes the the jews in Berea who used scripture. They to practice jewish traditions which they believed were binding. Are you not aware of what scripture says about Jews having traditions?

And it is the point. The fact is Paul was referring to OT scripture and nowhere in OT scripture will you find sola scriptura. But you will find oral tradition.

Jeff

 

[jphilapy]

Yeah, well then they did have Tradition, the Jews. (By the way: wasn’t Jesus quite against the Tradition of the Jews, calling their preservators hypocrites quite often in the NT?) -
Actually I guess I didn’t get what the poster wanted to say:

I just caught this post after I replied with the other.

1. Jesus didn’t say all the traditions of the jews contradict scripture. In fact Jesus endorses one of the traditions of the jews as being binding: Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
   Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Where in the OT do you find the seat of Moses? And what authority does the seat of Moses give the scribes and Pharisees?

Just notice that Jesus endorsed the tradition and scripture says so.

So the fact that Jews didn’t practice sola scriptura and the fact that scripture doesn’t teach it, and the fact that Jesus endorsed the practice of the jews following tradition should be very telling to you.

 

[jmcrae]

All one needs to live a “good Christian life” is to be found in the Bible.

How do you define “a good Christian life”?

 

[Esdra]

How do you define “a good Christian life”?

Well, to sum it up in one sentence:
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. (Mark 12:28-31)

Esdra

 

[JRKH]

Actually, for me the Holy Bible is sufficent. I don’t need more. All one needs to live a “good Christian life” is to be found in the Bible. Even when you consider the deuteros as apocrypha (as most Evangelicals do!)

Esdra

You know - I am not going to disagree with you here.
Everything you need to live a “good christian life” is to be found in the bible. Including the Seven Sacraments (demonstrated by many biblical references earlier), the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist, the Authority of the Church, Mary, Purgatory and much, much more. It’s all in there - It’s All in the Holy Bible - if one has the eyes to see it…

So the problem is not one of whether the bible contains all that is needed, but whether the one reading it is properly seeing and understanding it in it’s totality and within the historical context of it’s writing and development. Then to be able to act on it.
When one denies the Real Presence or tries to “redefine” it as something symbolic, they are not properly understanding Scripture.
When one tries to redefine the term “Church” so as to limit its authority to the “local community”, they are not properly understanding Scripture.

When one seperates the Holy Scripture from the Church (something never intended by the Bishops who assembled the canon), one loses a huge amount of what goes into living a good Christian life. Not the least of which is that which give Life, the Holy Eucharist.

Peace
James

 

[Esdra]

You know - I am not going to disagree with you here.
Everything you need to live a “good christian life” is to be found in the bible. Including the Seven Sacraments (demonstrated by many biblical references earlier), the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist, the Authority of the Church, Mary, Purgatory and much, much more. It’s all in there - It’s All in the Holy Bible - if one has the eyes to see it…

Be careful! We’ve found out in our previous posts here that Purgatory is not really to be found in the Holy Bible when you reject the deuteros as Holy Scripture!

So the problem is not one of whether the bible contains all that is needed, but whether the one reading it is properly seeing and understanding it in it’s totality and within the historical context of it’s writing and development. Then to be able to act on it.
When one denies the Real Presence or tries to “redefine” it as something symbolic, they are not properly understanding Scripture.
When one tries to redefine the term “Church” so as to limit its authority to the “local community”, they are not properly understanding Scripture.

When one seperates the Holy Scripture from the Church (something never intended by the Bishops who assembled the canon), one loses a huge amount of what goes into living a good Christian life. Not the least of which is that which give Life, the Holy Eucharist.

Yeah, how should they have known what will happen in reformation?

in Christ,
Esdra

 

[jlhargus]

And I said he didn’t because at this time the NT was “Sacred”/oral Tradition. It’s been written down only much later!

JL: Can you post a scriptrue telling us Sacred Tradition is totally contained in the written Tradition of Scripture? If you cannot post that scripture, and you will not be able, then you are holding a tradition of men made a doctrine, to nullify the word of God, whether by word or epistle. Why would Paul write in the scriptures to hold Traditions whether by WORD or EPISTLE, if the NT was to contain ALL Traditions? Shouldn’t Paul have written hold scripture only, as ALL Oral Traditions shall be written into scripture. Baptist also teach another tradition of men that baptism is nothing but a sign of accepting Christ, yet not one has been able to produce a scripture saying so. They also teach a tradition of men, once saved always saved and faith alone, no scrpture says so. I would encourage you to debate all these issues before making your decision.

No, you wouldn’t because he declared them the gospel (what we know now as NT) and in the beginning (until it was written down and canonised by the CC) the gospel was oral tradition.

JL: Paul clearly states HOLD OUR GOSPEL whether by WORD or EPISTLE, [2 THES 2:14 Whereunto he called you by **OUR GOSPEL, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and HOLD the TRADITIONS which ye have been taught, whether BY word, OR our epistle.]

1Tim6: Timothy, KEEP THAT WHICH IS COMMITTED TO THY TRUST, avoiding profane and vain babblings,

Philip4:9 THOSE THINGS, which YE HAVE both LEARNED, and RECEIVED, and HEARD, and SEEN IN ME, DO

1Thes2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye RECEIVED the WORD OF GOD which ye HEARD of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is IN TRUTH, the WORD OF GOD, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Jn14: 26: But the Comforter, which is THE HOLY GHOST, whom the Father will send in my name, he SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and bring all things to your remembrance, WHATSOEVER I have SAID UNTO YOU.

2Tim2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And THE THINGS that THOU HAST HEARD OF ME among many witnesses, THE SAME COMMIT thou TO FAITHFUL MEN, who shall be **ABLE TO TEACH OTHERS **also.

2Tim1:13 HOLD FAST the form of SOUND WORDS, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 THAT GOOD THING which was COMMITTED unto thee KEEP BY THE HOLY GHOST which dwelleth IN US.] The Holy Ghost in us given by the sacrament of Holy Orders.

That’s not the point. Or do you think the Jews had something like “Sacred Tradition”?

JL: Yes, that’s how they interpreted scripture. jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Oral_Law.html

Why do you think Baptist interpret scripture differently than Presbyterians? And Presbyterians differently than Pentecosts, etc. They all have the same scriptures and all claim to be led by the same Holy Spirit in their interpretation. Each use their own passed on oral traditions handed down to interpret scripture. Sola Scriptura has done nothing but create a Tower of Babel, scattering people of faith into thousands of contentious denominations. All speaking their own faith language no longer understanding the one faith language delivered once to the saints, the Church, 1Tm3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in THE HOUSE OF GOD, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, THE PILLAR AND GROUND OF TRUTH. Sola Scriptura is nothing more than a tradition of men, Satan’s playground. The scriptures their sole authority tells them the Church is the pillar and ground of truth. Mt18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but IF HE NEGLECT TO HEAR THE CHRUCH, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

 

[Esdra]

JL: Can you post a scriptrue telling us Sacred Tradition is totally contained in the written Tradition of Scripture? If you cannot post that scripture, and you will not be able, then you are holding a tradition of men made a doctrine, to nullify the word of God, whether by word or epistle. Why would Paul write in the scriptures to hold Traditions whether by WORD or EPISTLE, if the NT was to contain ALL Traditions? Shouldn’t Paul have written hold scripture only, as ALL Oral Traditions shall be written into scripture. Baptist also teach another tradition of men that baptism is nothing but a sign of accepting Christ, yet not one has been able to produce a scripture saying so. They also teach a tradition of men, once saved always saved and faith alone, no scrpture says so. I would encourage you to debate all thise issues before making your decision.

Paul has written that the Traditions should be hold because he was referring the gospel which he has given them ORALLY! How should he know that they’ll be written down some 100 years later? The only scriptures he knew were of Jewish origin. The Septuagint and maybe he even read other Scriptures. Who knows?

JL: Paul clearly states HOLD OUR GOSPEL whether by WORD or EPISTLE, [2 THES 2:14 Whereunto he called you by **OUR GOSPEL

HOLD FAST the form of SOUND WORDS, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 THAT GOOD THING which was COMMITTED unto thee KEEP BY THE HOLY GHOST which dwelleth IN US. The Holy Ghost in us given by the sacrament of Holy Orders.

and again, just like PJM here catechising.
Do you think I don’t know scripture?!

JL: Yes, that’s how they interpreted scripture. jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Oral_Law.html

Why do you think Baptist interpret scripture differently than Presbyterians? And Presbyterians differently than Pentecosts, etc. They all have the same scriptures and all claim to be led by the same Holy Spirit in their interpretation. Each use their own passed on oral traditions handed down to interpret scripture. Sola Scriptura has done nothing but create a Tower of Babel, scattering people of faith into thousands of contentious denominations. All speaking their own faith language no longer understanding the one faith language delivered once to the saints, the Church, 1Tm3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in THE HOUSE OF GOD, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, THE PILLAR AND GROUND OF TRUTH. Sola Scriptura is nothing more than a tradition of men, Satan’s playground. The scriptures their sole authority tells them the Church is the pillar and ground of truth. Mt18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but IF HE NEGLECT TO HEAR THE CHRUCH, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Well then, so far.

Esdra

 

[Erich]

Be careful! We’ve found out in our previous posts here that Purgatory is not really to be found in the Holy Bible when you reject the deuteros as Holy Scripture!

No we didn’t.“May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus because he often gave me new heart and was not ashamed of my chains. But when he came to Rome, he promptly searched for me and found me. May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day. And you know very well the services he rendered in Ephesus.” (2 Tim. 1:16–18).
Paul prays for Onesiphorus, who seems to be dead. Paul would not pray for someone already in heaven because there is no useful point to it. Paul *would *pray for someone in purgatory.
“According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.” (1 Cor. 3:10-15)
Clearly Paul is talking here about men destined for heaven, because even those whose work is “burned up” will be saved. Gold, silver, and precious stones are analogous to good works, while wood, hay, and straw exemplify those impurities or elements of unholiness that need to be cleansed before we enter into heaven.

So clearly Scripture teaches of the possibility of dealing with at least some kinds of sins or with some of the consequences of sins after death in preparation for heaven. This is purgatory, and it is evidence of the depth of God’s love for us. If we die in his friendship, even though not completely prepared for heaven, God still provides a way for us to live with him forever.“Otherwise, what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they having themselves baptized for them?” (1 Cor. 15:29)
In other words, if no one who dies in an unholy state can attain eternal life, why act in their behalf?

Purgatory is that place (or state) between “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” and “nothing unclean shall enter Heaven.” Jesus Himself tells us, “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt. 5:48). In other words, cleanliness/holiness is a prerequisite for entering Heaven.

 

[jmcrae]

Well, to sum it up in one sentence:
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. (Mark 12:28-31)

Esdra

And can we be truly said to be “loving the Lord our God” when our love for Him is on our own terms - when God “must understand” that we are just simply too bored to meet Him at Mass?

 

[jmcrae]

Be careful! We’ve found out in our previous posts here that Purgatory is not really to be found in the Holy Bible when you reject the deuteros as Holy Scripture!

Who is this “we” and what gave them the authority to reject the Old Testament portion of the Deuterocanon as Scripture? (Although I notice they hold to the New Testament portion of the Deuterocanon, strangely enough.)

 

[JRKH]

Be careful! We’ve found out in our previous posts here that Purgatory is not really to be found in the Holy Bible when you reject the deuteros as Holy Scripture!

You are absolutely right. When you begin rejcting things long held as sacred Scripture you are bound to loose something important.
Also, Purgatory CAN be seen in the 66 book bible. It is just that one of teh most clear references is found in Maccabees.

Yeah, how should they have known what will happen in reformation?

They didn’t because it is not the will of the Holy Spirit that the Bible should be seperated from the Church. It is pride (a sin) that caused that.

Peace
James

 

[Esdra]

No we didn’t.“May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus because he often gave me new heart and was not ashamed of my chains. But when he came to Rome, he promptly searched for me and found me. May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day. And you know very well the services he rendered in Ephesus.” (2 Tim. 1:16–18).
Paul prays for Onesiphorus, who seems to be dead. Paul would not pray for someone already in heaven because there is no useful point to it. Paul *would *pray for someone in purgatory.
“According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.” (1 Cor. 3:10-15)
Clearly Paul is talking here about men destined for heaven, because even those whose work is “burned up” will be saved. Gold, silver, and precious stones are analogous to good works, while wood, hay, and straw exemplify those impurities or elements of unholiness that need to be cleansed before we enter into heaven.

So clearly Scripture teaches of the possibility of dealing with at least some kinds of sins or with some of the consequences of sins after death in preparation for heaven. This is purgatory, and it is evidence of the depth of God’s love for us. If we die in his friendship, even though not completely prepared for heaven, God still provides a way for us to live with him forever.“Otherwise, what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they having themselves baptized for them?” (1 Cor. 15:29)
In other words, if no one who dies in an unholy state can attain eternal life, why act in their behalf?

Purgatory is that place (or state) between “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” and “nothing unclean shall enter Heaven.” Jesus Himself tells us, “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt. 5:48). In other words, cleanliness/holiness is a prerequisite for entering Heaven.

Hi

thank you.
I’ve never seen the mentioned scriptures in this light.

But as it is rather late, I will have a more detailled look at the mentioned verses tomorrow or so

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

And can we be truly said to be “loving the Lord our God” when our love for Him is on our own terms - when God “must understand” that we are just simply too bored to meet Him at Mass?

Tell me, what is the difference if I go to Mass or to a Baptist Service (or a Lutheran, or a Presbyterian, whatever)?
Don’t all 4 worship god? Don’t all four come to him?
Is it really so important how you call it and what you actually do in service/mass, as long as you are worshipping our Lord?

I have quitted seeing the difference between service (yes, something like that also exists in the CC; and it is becoming more and more, as there is a severe lack of priests in Austria!) and mass together with my dad some time ago when the “renewal” of our parish began under our new priest in about 2006.

Esdra

 

[jlhargus]

jlhargus;7341942:

JL: Can you post a scriptrue telling us Sacred Tradition is totally contained in the written Tradition of Scripture? If you cannot post that scripture, and you will not be able, then you are holding a tradition of men made a doctrine, to nullify the word of God, whether by word or epistle. Why would Paul write in the scriptures to hold Traditions whether by WORD or EPISTLE, if the NT was to contain ALL Traditions? Shouldn’t Paul have written hold scripture only, as ALL Oral Traditions shall be written into scripture. Baptist also teach another tradition of men that baptism is nothing but a sign of accepting Christ, yet not one has been able to produce a scripture saying so. They also teach a tradition of men, once saved always saved and faith alone, no scrpture says so. I would encourage you to debate all thise issues before making your decision.

Paul has written that the Traditions should be hold because he was referring the gospel which he has given them ORALLY! How should he know that they’ll be written down some 100 years later? The only scriptures he knew were of Jewish origin. The Septuagint and maybe he even read other Scriptures. Who knows?

JL: Well do you think the Holy Spirit who inspiried Paul to write 2Thes did not know that Mt, Mk, Lk and Jn would be written? Yet the Holy Spirit INSPIRIED Paul to tell us to HOLD TRADITIONS whether by WORD or EPISTLE, along with other scriptures. So unless you can post SCRIPTURE telling us otherwise you are following a tradition of men only.

and again, just like PJM here

catechising.
Do you think I don’t know scripture?!

JL: I notice you could not refute the scriptures. Well if you know scripture tell me where they tell us NOT to hold Traditions, also scripture where baptism is only a sign of accepting Christ?

Well then, so far. Esdra

JL: Again I see you are at a lose for an answer.

 

[jmcrae]

Tell me, what is the difference if I go to Mass or to a Baptist Service (or a Lutheran, or a Presbyterian, whatever)?

The Mass was given to us by Jesus, and He said, “Do this” (the Mass) in memory of Me."

The various Protestant services of worship were created by human beings, after 1500 AD, based on their own ideas of what is important, picking and choosing from the Bible various things, and then making something up that seems to encompass that thing, whether it’s praying in tongues, hymn-singing, praying the Psalms, preaching, Scripture reading, or even just holy silence, etc.

Don’t all 4 worship god? Don’t all four come to him?

One of them comes in the way that Jesus set down for us to come, but the others come according to their own will and on their own terms; not on Jesus’ terms.

 

[TimothyH]

…it is very important for me that everything which I believe is based on the Bible (which means it says in the Bible.)

Holy Orders

I’m really looking forward to your answers!

I haven’t read the whole thread but I’l throw it out there that Holy Orders are all but explicit in scripture

Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the presbyterate. (1 Timothy 4:14)

The practice of ordaining presbyters, bishops and deacons this way was practiced in apostolic times and this is still what happens today. The gift of the holy spirit is given to a person through the laying on of hands by other members of the presbyterate.

People can deny that it can happen today but the precident has been set. This is the unerring word of God here - at least once in history, the Holy Spirit has been given by one human being to another.

-Tim-

 

[Esdra]

The Mass was given to us by Jesus, and He said, “Do this” (the Mass) in memory of Me."

The various Protestant services of worship were created by human beings, after 1500 AD, based on their own ideas of what is important, picking and choosing from the Bible various things, and then making something up that seems to encompass that thing, whether it’s praying in tongues, hymn-singing, praying the Psalms, preaching, Scripture reading, or even just holy silence, etc.

So what do you think then of a Catholic service (the one worship without Holy Eucharist?)
Is this is also men-made then?
I have made the experience that it is VERY similar to a Lutheran service here actually.
Especially when our female parish assistent hosts the service.

One of them comes in the way that Jesus set down for us to come, but the others come according to their own will and on their own terms; not on Jesus’ terms.

For me alle 4 are equally worshipping god! (inclusive the parishoners who attend a Catholic service.)

 

[Esdra]

Esdra;7341966:

JL: Well do you think the Holy Spirit who inspiried Paul to write 2Thes did not know that Mt, Mk, Lk and Jn would be written? Yet the Holy Spirit INSPIRIED Paul to tell us to HOLD TRADITIONS whether by WORD or EPISTLE, along with other scriptures. So unless you can post SCRIPTURE telling us otherwise you are following a tradition of men only.

JL: I notice you could not refute the scriptures. Well if you know scripture tell me where they tell us NOT to hold Traditions, also scripture where baptism is only a sign of accepting Christ?

JL: Again I see you are at a lose for an answer.

My dear friend JL,

just tell me at this point what do you expect from me?

You see, I am not an apologetic and so well I also don’t know the Holy Bible…

Do you want me to say: “Hey, I’ve got it! I have believed nonsense all the time since I started searching for the Truth outside the CC. Tomorrow I’ll go to confession and mass and will became a cradle, devout Catholic revert?”

Do you really expect that?

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

I haven’t read the whole thread but I’l throw it out there that Holy Orders are all but explicit in scripture

Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the presbyterate. (1 Timothy 4:14)

The practice of ordaining presbyters, bishops and deacons this way was practiced in apostolic times and this is still what happens today. The gift of the holy spirit is given to a person through the laying on of hands by other members of the presbyterate.

People can deny that it can happen today but the precident has been set. This is the unerring word of God here - at least once in history, the Holy Spirit has been given by one human being to another.

-Tim-

Hi

thanks for partaking, Tim.

I guess this has even not been covered already.
I have lost the view in this thread a bit!
There have been a lot of answers concerning scriptural evidence for the 7 Sacraments.
But actually we ended up somehow in a complete other topic. - Like always!

If you want, catch up reading here and then you can partake.

Esdra