The Seven Catholic Sacraments

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED:

[Hb12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, **My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, THAT WE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF HIS HOLINESS. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. 12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; 13 And make straight paths for your feet, LEST THAT WHICH IS LAME be TURNED OUT OF THE WAY; but let it rather be healed. 14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:] Suffering keeps the LAME from being turned out of the way and lost. We will be purified here or in purgatory, basically it’s up to us.

Those in Purgatory are those who have fallen short in Christian LOVE, AFTER BAPTISM in some way, and did not recognize or do penance in reparation for their faults. Purgatory saves no one, those in purgatory are saved already by the blood of Christ, else they would not be in purgatory, they need to be MADE perfect to enter heaven. Purgatory is a temporary state, all in purgatory will be in heaven at some point.

[2Tm2:12 If we suffer, we shall ALSO REIGN WITH HIM: if we deny him, he also will deny us:] Suffering is not a cruse, Christians are called to carry their cross daily. Suffering can not only purify the one suffering, but can also draw down God’s grace for the salvation of others on earth, Christ want’s his people to SHARE in his work of salvation. Paul tells us in [Col1:24 Who now rejoice in **MY SUFFERINGS FOR YOU, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh FOR HIS BODY’S SAKE, which is THE CHURCH:]

[Is 6:4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. 6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and THY SIN PURGED.] Was Isaiah’s lips the problem or was it from his heart, that impurities came? The burning coal purged him of his guilt AND sin.

[Malachi3:2 But **who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for HE IS LIKE A REFINER’S FIRE, and LIKE FULLERS’ SOAP: 3 And he shall sit AS A REFINER AND PURIFIER OF SILVER: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.] The day of his coming would be the end of this age or our indiviual deaths.

[Prvbs17:3 The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts.

We need to be MADE perfect, and love is what makes one perfect, love your neighbor as yourself totally without reserve, most of us fail in this to some degree. When we were baptized God’s grace regenerated us and MADE perfect and ready for heaven. The slate is wiped clean for the holiness to see the Lord, most do not maintain that purity throughout life. Even in this life the Lord chastises to correct faults and imperfections after baptism. If we bear, offer, learn and grow from these chastisements we can grow in love and purify our soul, repair the damage of our faults, with his help and grace. We can be perfected on earth with God’s help by taking up our cross daily and dying to self, or in purgatory it is up to us, both are God’s gift of grace and great mercy.

[Jms5:20 Let him know, that **HE WHICH CONVERTH THE SINNER from the error of his way SHALL SAVE A SOUL, AND shall HIDE A MULTITUDE OF SINS.] Helping others we can repair for our faults and cover a multitude of sins.

2Pt3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY WITH A GREAT NOISE, AND THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT, THE EARTH ALSO AND THE WORKS that are THEREIN SHALL BE BURNED UP. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto THE COMING OF THE DAY OF GOD, wherein THE HEAVENS BEING ON FIRE SHALL BE DISSOLVED, and THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT? 13 Nevertheless WE, ACCORDING TO HIS PROMISE, LOOK FOR NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH, WHEREIN DWELLETH RIGHTEOUSNESS. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, BE DILIGENT THAT YE MAY BE FOUND OF HIM IN PEACE, WITHOUT SPOT, AND BLAMELESS.

 

[DebChris]

Heaven and earth are united in the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
Eucharist means thanksgiving.
From General Instruction on the Roman Missal
*During the course of the year the mysteries of redemption are recalled at mass so that they are in some way made present. All other actions and works of the Christian life are related to the Eucharistic celebration, leading up to it and flowing from it.
The celebration of the Eucharist, and the entire liturgy, is carried out by the use of outward signs. By these signs faith is nourished, strengthened, and expressed. *

 

[Esdra]

Have you ever been to a Mass between January 18-25? There is an entire Week of Prayer for Christian Unity which is traditionally celebrated during this week. This octave was first conceived in 1907, and received papal blessings beginning with Pope St. Pius X on December 27, 1909 – and I know you’re not over 100 years old

Also, the Liturgy of the Word on Good Friday concludes with a series of prayers: for the Church, the Pope, the clergy and laity of the Church, those preparing for baptism, the unity of Christians, the Jewish people, those who do not believe in Christ, those who do not believe in God, those in public office, and those in special need. These prayers have been said for hundreds of years.

Hi Erich,

yes, after I reflected upon that I realized that there ARE prayers for unity.

But actually, I have never thought that they are praying for the seperated brothers…
I don’t know if this is the case or not.
However, explicitly, I have never heard the priest praying in mass for the unity of Christianity.

I’ve always thought that it refers to the unity of the Catholic Church itself, somehow.
Don’t know how I came to that conclusion.

See, this is my problem with the ritualized CC…
I just can’t understand so many things.
I never had these problems with the Baptists. They are speaking right out. Without ritualization…

Esdra

 

[DebChris]

Re: Purgatory in the Bible (Source: Catholic Answer Bible):
*The final destiny of the redeemed is to live in heaven eternally with God, where “we shall be like him, for we shall see Him as he is.” (1 Jn 3:2). Since God is holy, to be like Him we too must be holy (Mt 5:48). Without that holiness, “no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14), for nothing unclean will enter" the glory of heaven (Rv 21:27).

The traditional image of cleansing purgatorial fire comes from such biblical passages as 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, which speaks to us of those who will be saved, but only as through fire" (3:15). The Bible also speaks of God’s holiness in this regard as a “consuming fire” (Heb. 12:29). Yet just as the physician’s cauterizing fire burns in order to heal, so does any pain we might experience in purgatory. In the end, it is a work of God’s mercy. *

Related Scripture: 2 Mc 12:38-46 + Mt 5:48 + Lk 23:39-43 + 1 Cor 3:11-15 + Heb 12:14,29 + 1Jn 3:2-3 + Rv 21:27 + Lv 11:44; 19:2 + Dt 4:24 + Mal 3:2-4 + Mt 5:48 + 2 Cor 7:11 + 1 Pt 1:16
Catechism of the Catholic Church: 1030-1032 + 1472

 

[Esdra]

On the issue of unity, many Protestants will claim that they already have “unity” among the saved. That this unity is not visible and heirachal but it none the less exists and nothing more is necessary. This is quite false and misleading.
I say this to our friend Esdra because as he explores Protestantism he is bound to hear such things.

After careful thought and discussions with a number of protesants on the matter I have come to this conclusion. While it may be true that we have a spiritual connection to other believers, this connection to them and to the Holy Spirit should drive believers toward a physical and authoritative unity for the purpose of protecting, defending, and teaching the Gospel Truths.
This is both what Chris prayed for, Paul exhorted us to and what is clearly demostrated in the famous council in Acts.

Those who do not feel “driven” to such visible and authoritative unity in the face of mounting fragmentation in the Protestant sphere are, frankly, hiding their heads in the sand. Instead of facing up to the facts of doctrinal chaos, all “bible based” and seeking to humbly take council with each other, they declare that “visible unity” is not really necessary…We’re all united in Christ…

My Dear Esdra, beware of this “snare” of the evil one…

Peace
James

Hi James,

that many protestants claim that there IS already unity among the Christians through Jesus Christ is nothing new for me.
I’ve often heard that argument, and actually I also believe that!
I even have often quoted that in argumentations here in CAF.

Actually, this is what you fairly at first get to know when you spend some time with (reborn) Protestants. (If the others like Lutherans or Reformed [Presbyterians etc] also argument like that, I don’t know!)

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

I am getting down to the nitty gritty day to day stuff…

When kids leave the parents’ faith, you can no longer have family prayer with them…even if they go to another denomination…if it is telling your kids that the Catholic Church is a man made church, they won’t want to pray with you…prosperity non-denominational congregations, the local young peoples church where they are rebaptized to wipe out the Catholicism, and then dunked in a jacuzzi…rock bands, having a memorial of eating bread and then it is tossed in the garbage…kids can’t think right.

I live in about the highest substance abuse city in the country. So many kids get off and the parishes are having a hard time relating faith to teens and young adults. Even if you are in a parish with a strong community, it is still not drawing the young people unless they are already committed.

Hi

actually, I wouldn’t have a problem praying with my family, (or any other Catholic; Even the rosary I would pray with him/her if she is not familiar with “free praying”) if they would.
But since all have become Cafeteria Catholics, not to say Catholics on the Paper only, and I am nerving them by talking about Jesus and the Bible and in General religion that’s not the point in our family.
From my granny (a deeply faithful, traditional Catholic) I have heard a positive resonance when I offered her to pray with her or together with her. But actually, she never came back to my offer. But to also mention that: She doesn’t know that I am more or less no Catholic anymore.

And I also don’t have any problems with going with my parents to Church on the high feats like Christmas, Pentecost and Easter (the only time when the whole family goes to mass!)

Esdra

 

[jmcrae]

I’ve always thought that it refers to the unity of the Catholic Church itself, somehow.

Well, they are, since when our Protestant and Orthodox brothers and sisters rejoin us, the wounds of division that happened in the 1500s will be healed. Remember - by virtue of their baptism, they have partial unity with the Church, and because of the fact that, when you go back in history, their ancestors were also Catholics - there were no Protestants before they left the Catholic Church - but not full unity. We are praying for them to return to full unity with us.

See, this is my problem with the ritualized CC…
I just can’t understand so many things.

You can ask. This is why you attended Catholic school for most of your childhood - so that they would teach you what these things mean, and to give you the opportunity to ask. But you can still ask, even now that you are an adult. The priest can help you.

I never had these problems with the Baptists. They are speaking right out. Without ritualization…

The Baptists have plenty of rituals. They just don’t call them that. The Altar Call, for example, is a ritual. The Sinner’s Prayer is a ritual, because even though you do it “from the heart” it is always the same words, and always the same things happening in the same order, every time, for every person. The order of service may be supposed to be “spontaneous” but after you attend it a few times in a row, you will notice that the same things happen in the same order, every single time. That’s “ritual.”

 

[JRKH]

Hi Erich,

yes, after I reflected upon that I realized that there ARE prayers for unity.

But actually, I have never thought that they are praying for the seperated brothers…
I don’t know if this is the case or not.
However, explicitly, I have never heard the priest praying in mass for the unity of Christianity.

I’ve always thought that it refers to the unity of the Catholic Church itself, somehow.
Don’t know how I came to that conclusion.

Now you know differntly. When the Church prays for unity it is for UNITY. For the untiy of Christians, and for the salvation of those unsaved that they might believe and come into the Church.
The fact that you say, “I don’t know how I came to that conclusion”, says much about how much you actually know the church you plan to leave.

See, this is my problem with the ritualized CC…
I just can’t understand so many things.
I never had these problems with the Baptists. They are speaking right out. Without ritualization…

The fact that you have missed out on so much is not that the church is “ritualized” to use your word, (liturgical would be better) but that you were not properly taught. I will grant you that this is not your fault, though obviously your grandma did her best in her own way.
But now you are grown. Now you can seek the answers to these questions, which is why you are here. If you need “Catholic Bible study” then seek it out. Learn the Bible from Catholics and compare that to what you here from your baptist preacher. Look at History, read the works of eminent converts etc.
Yes, I’m sure that the Baptists are speaking right out, but is what they are saying true? I think that all of us here should have given you enough “bible basis” for Catholicism to give you pause in your journey toward teh exits. Perhaps it’s time for you to give the Catholic Church “equal time” to make it’s case based on teachings and not on “examples”.

What say you?

Peace
James

 

[Esdra]

Esdra,
At the beginning of this thread, you stated that you were “in the process of leaving the CC.” That means you have not quite left and yes, the rest of us would like to see you reconsider your position. Even if you should leave, you have a home in which to return.
Many who leave the Church do so because they have not been properly catechized. You have stated several times throughout this thread that this is indeed your case. Knowing your catechism makes it easier to resist the temptation to leave the Mystical Body of Christ. When you were baptized into the Catholic Church, you were baptized into the community that makes up the Church, into the Mystical Body of Christ. Using St. Paul’s analogy, you remain a part of the Body just as an eye cannot say it is not a part of the body because it cannot hear, or an ear because it cannot see.
Your Catholic Faith can very well be fed by the Catholic culture in which you live. I am not the only one on CAF living in a culture in which the Catholic Church is not at the center. You are surrounded by the Church’s richness. While your “instruction” in the Catholic faith may be limited, I am saddened that you choose leaving the Church rather than discovering what the Church does have to offer. Ours is indeed a rich faith. It is a religion of simplicity with a depth that cannot be fathomed no matter how long we live.
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with him by baptisms into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.( Romans 6:3-4)
Belief is more than feeling, more than experiencing the Eucharist, although putting your faith in God can lead to experiencing His real presence. We, as members of His Church, must take the first step. That step is a faith response to the Faith which we have been given.
In the Mass, we are nourished not only by His written Word, but also by Christ Himself in the Liturgy of the Eucharist, the source and summit of our Faith.

Hi

yes, what you (and the others here corresponding with me) are writing about the CC sounds really good - BUT most of these things simply don’t exist in our parish! - For example adoration in the real presence etc.
There are only Cursillo courses in our neighboring village (who also belongs to our parish in the meantime), rosary of course and masses.
But THAT would be too less for me… I also need worshipping and praising with (modern) songs, good sermons, bible study groups and prayer groups where people can exchange each other about their faith and praying for each other. And the feeling of family (which can’t be found at all among Catholics. At least not in countrys where the CC is the main church and all municiplas are parishes and therefore Catholic!) - And the latter point I entirely get in my Baptist Church!
I mean most of these things do exist in my home county, Tyrol, but they are too far away! (about 60 kilometres!)
So why should I journey, if I have most I need (except contemplative parts and the rosary) in my Baptist Church (which is in our neighboring town, about 12 kilometres!)?

You see my dilemma?
What the CC offers (in my parish) is too less for me…

Esdra

 

[jmcrae]

What the CC offers (in my parish) is too less for me…

Esdra

It offers you Jesus in the Real Presence, every time there is Mass.

 

[DebChris]

Hi Erich,

yes, after I reflected upon that I realized that there ARE prayers for unity.

But actually, I have never thought that they are praying for the seperated brothers…
I don’t know if this is the case or not.
However, explicitly, I have never heard the priest praying in mass for the unity of Christianity.

I’ve always thought that it refers to the unity of the Catholic Church itself, somehow.
Don’t know how I came to that conclusion.

See, this is my problem with the ritualized CC…
I just can’t understand so many things.
I never had these problems with the Baptists. They are speaking right out. Without ritualization…

Esdra

It was the associate pastor of my church in WI that initiated the pulpit exchange between the various denominations within the small town in which I lived.
Here, in the Persian Gulf, after Mass. there was a special prayer service during the week of Christian unity this past year. Clergy and representatives of all Christian denominations were invited to participate. This was followed by a dinner in which I sat at table with the German ambassador.
Yes, there is a Mass specifically for the Unity of Christians.

Pope Paul VI addressed the scandal that the divisions within the Christian community present to the rest of the world. In fact, I was asked about this division this past week by a Sikh. Strife is a luxury that Christians cannot afford. The various denominations represent strife within the Christian community.

All of us in daily life engage in ritual, some simplistic and some not so simple. We dress in particular manner, and set the table for our meals. Most of us follow a ritual as we begin and end our day. Definitely allow yourself to examine what the “Baptists” are teaching in light of Catholic doctrine. Ask the Holy Spirit to guide your understanding as you read the scripture passages provided throughout this thread. Look beyond the outward rituals of the Church and into the meaning each represents.

BTW I don’t know what the weather patterns are like in Austria. I do know that Germany and WI do have similar patterns. For about 2 years, I drove 50 miles one way to attend a ecumenical prayer meeting on a weekly basis. That includes during winter time when the temperature is -20 Fahrenheit. There were other retreat centers that were even further away. Worshiping God means more than songs of Praise or silent retreats. Sometimes we have to come down from the mountaintop and work in the valley.

 

[Esdra]

Now you know differntly. When the Church prays for unity it is for UNITY. For the untiy of Christians, and for the salvation of those unsaved that they might believe and come into the Church.
The fact that you say, “I don’t know how I came to that conclusion”, says much about how much you actually know the church you plan to leave.

The fact that you have missed out on so much is not that the church is “ritualized” to use your word, (liturgical would be better) but that you were not properly taught. I will grant you that this is not your fault, though obviously your grandma did her best in her own way.
But now you are grown. Now you can seek the answers to these questions, which is why you are here. If you need “Catholic Bible study” then seek it out. Learn the Bible from Catholics and compare that to what you here from your baptist preacher. Look at History, read the works of eminent converts etc.
Yes, I’m sure that the Baptists are speaking right out, but is what they are saying true? I think that all of us here should have given you enough “bible basis” for Catholicism to give you pause in your journey toward teh exits. Perhaps it’s time for you to give the Catholic Church “equal time” to make it’s case based on teachings and not on “examples”.

What say you?

Peace
James

Hi James,

yes, you did your best to show me using the bible that the CC is THE CHURCH.

But frankly, that’s too much for me. I would need maybe RCIA classes (which probably don’t even exist here in Austria… At least I’ve never heard about that before reading it here in CAF!) to really learn the important things about the CC.

I guess, I haven’t understood the whole concept of mass. If I go to mass this is just boring for me (sorry for that… ), just like sitting in a very boring lecture with a very boring professor (to take an anology from student life.)

My granny would actually be my “Confirmation godmother” (I don’t know if this exists outside of Austria as well…) - but actually, how and what should I ask her? I wouldn’t even know where to start. - And frankly, I am not really sure at the moment if I really should struggle that hard to try to understand my religion and learn about it when I actually already know so much from the Baptitsts…
Next year, before my Baptism, I’ll have to take lessons concerning the Baptitst faith at our pastor’s. - I actually wanted to do that this year but mom prevented me from doing so. And I agreed with her to wait until I have a job and stand on my own feet (so that I can donate something for them, I then for myself added.)
I was really looking forward to that you know!
Finally having a real religion, you understand and you really belong to.
As I never felt belonging to the CC!°

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

It offers you Jesus in the Real Presence, every time there is Mass.

yes, nice. But what to do if this sounds spanish to one? I hope you understand what I try to say…

 

[JRKH]

Hi

yes, what you (and the others here corresponding with me) are writing about the CC sounds really good - BUT most of these things simply don’t exist in our parish! - For example adoration in the real presence etc.
There are only Cursillo courses in our neighboring village (who also belongs to our parish in the meantime), rosary of course and masses.

And just why could you not be the one to promete them? Eucharistic adoration for example doesn’t have to be with the Eucharist exposed. I go and sit in the Church in front of the tabernacle because I know that Christ is there. Why do you feel the need to jump ship just because someone else hasn’t promoted these thing already.
Yes it might be difficult, but it could be soooo worth it.

But THAT would be too less for me… I also need worshipping and praising with (modern) songs, good sermons, bible study groups and prayer groups where people can exchange each other about their faith and praying for each other.

To start with sermons, I agree there needs to be more good sermons. But what good are the sermons at the Baptist Church if they are in error? As for the other things, modern song etc, I really think that if this is what you are drawn to you can probably find it in the Catholic Charismatic movement. Again, you just need to do some research.

And the feeling of family *(which can’t be found at all among Catholics. At least not in countrys where the CC is the main church and all municiplas are parishes and therefore Catholic!) *- And the latter point I entirely get in my Baptist Church!

For someone so young, you seem to know a lot about what can be found in entire countries… Yes, I’m sure that the “community” atmosphere is great at the Baptist church and it can be very appealing. But I’m reminded of a scene in the move "A Man for all Seasons. The movie is about St Thomas More, and his opposition to King Henry’s split from Rome. In the scene, a kings council is trying to get Thomas to sign a pledge and results in this exchange:
The Duke of Norfolk: Oh confound all this. I’m not a scholar, I don’t know whether the marriage was lawful or not but dammit, Thomas, look at these names! Why can’t you do as I did and come with us, for fellowship!
Sir Thomas More: And when we die, and you are sent to heaven for doing your conscience, and I am sent to hell for not doing mine, will you come with me, for fellowship?
The point here is that fellowship is wonderful but not at the expense of your eternal soul.

I mean most of these things do exist in my home county, Tyrol, but they are too far away! (about 60 kilometres!)
So why should I journey, if I have most I need (except contemplative parts and the rosary) in my Baptist Church* (which is in our neighboring town, about 12 kilometres!)*?

You see my dilemma?
What the CC offers (in my parish) is too less for me…

Why should you travel? Why should you study? Why - - –
For the Holy Lord in the Eucharist that is why…For knowing God more fully in His Church and for enlightening your local Church community by your knowledge and wisdom as you grow in Holiness and in Love. One great person in a parish can make a remarkable difference. I’d wager that if you began to promote Catholic bible study et.al in you rlocal community you’d find others who are interested as well. They are probably just like you and lamenting that there is none. It only takes one to get it going…

Peace
James

 

[Esdra]

Hi

because some of you (either in this thread in my other one) have written about Catholic Schools:

I’ve never been in a Catholic School (maybe I would have learned more about my faith there and wouldn’t be in the situation I am now in!)!
But in a public school. Public Schools in Austria are (on the contrary to Britain or the US) good schools and most children visit Public Schools and only very few private and/or Catholic Schools!

I did, however, have RI (Religious Instruction) in elemantary school and junior and senior high school.

In elementary school we did learn about the basis of the CC - well just so that Children can understand (although I can’t remember anything from that time what we did in RI!)

In junior High we even had for the first 2 years a nun as a RI teacher. But my classmates were not intersted in RI and didn’t pay attention at all! So actually, also there I didn’t learn anything. Later on we had an RI teacher that later on became the decon in our home parish. - But the situation was the same, noone payed attention and it was loud in class and they played tricks on him, so also there I didn’t learn anything.

Preperation classes for confirmation I really don’t remember at all. I don’t know who teached us and also not what we actually did…

Well in senior high the time of catechising was over: There were only did more or less ethics and what the CC says on that position.

Catechising at home has never been.

So you see? I rose up in a Catholic country but never really were taught the Catholic faith!
Actually I don’t wonder at all that I so broke away (well, more or less) from the CC!
And frankly, I believe most others in my age and younger are in the same situation.
Well, maybe they won’ start searching like I did - maybe they just end up living their live as Atheists or try to find what they long for in their heart in occultism.

Esdra

 

[DebChris]

Hi James,

yes, you did your best to show me using the bible that the CC is THE CHURCH.

But frankly, that’s too much for me. I would need maybe RCIA classes (which probably don’t even exist here in Austria… At least I’ve never heard about that before reading it here in CAF!) to really learn the important things about the CC.

I guess, I haven’t understood the whole concept of mass. If I go to mass this is just boring for me (sorry for that… ), just like sitting in a very boring lecture with a very boring professor (to take an anology from student life.)

My granny would actually be my “Confirmation godmother” (I don’t know if this exists outside of Austria as well…) - but actually, how and what should I ask her? I wouldn’t even know where to start. - And frankly, I am not really sure at the moment if I really should struggle that hard to try to understand my religion and learn about it when I actually already know so much from the Baptitsts…
Next year, before my Baptism, I’ll have to take lessons concerning the Baptitst faith at our pastor’s. - I actually wanted to do that this year but mom prevented me from doing so. And I agreed with her to wait until I have a job and stand on my own feet (so that I can donate something for them, I then for myself added.)
I was really looking forward to that you know!
Finally having a real religion, you understand and you really belong to.
As I never felt belonging to the CC!°

Esdra

Cursillo means “little catechism.” You have mentioned that it is available where you are. Cursillo is a weekend retreat, but it does not end there. After making Cursillo, the three day retreat, you continue in lifelong formation with other cursillitos. This is the sense of family that you seek and is available within the Church. Your group meets weekly helping one other grow in the spiritual life.
In order to make Cursillo, you will need a sponsor, plus approval of your pastor. The latter should not be difficult to get, since the mere request shows a desire to grow in faith.
Talk to your pastor. Let him know that you want to learn more about the Catholic faith. Tell him that you are interested in Cursillo. Ask him if he can guide you toward a person who will act as your sponsor. BTW Your mom and grandmother might also like to make Cursillo.

 

[JRKH]

Hi James,

that many protestants claim that there IS already unity among the Christians through Jesus Christ is nothing new for me.
I’ve often heard that argument, and actually I also believe that!
I even have often quoted that in argumentations here in CAF.

Actually, this is what you fairly at first get to know when you spend some time with (reborn) Protestants. (If the others like Lutherans or Reformed [Presbyterians etc] also argument like that, I don’t know!)

Esdra

Yes they claim unity, until they disagree over some doctrine or other. Then they are stuck because there is no way to definitively say who is right or wrong. Then they wind up splitting even further and are forced to "agree to disagree’.
That is not unity in my book nor in God’s

Peace
James

 

[Erich]

Hi Erich,

yes, after I reflected upon that I realized that there ARE prayers for unity.

But actually, I have never thought that they are praying for the seperated brothers…
I don’t know if this is the case or not.
However, explicitly, I have never heard the priest praying in mass for the unity of Christianity.

I’ve always thought that it refers to the unity of the Catholic Church itself, somehow.
Don’t know how I came to that conclusion.

See, this is my problem with the ritualized CC…
I just can’t understand so many things.
I never had these problems with the Baptists. They are speaking right out. Without ritualization…

Esdra

It’s *definitely *the case that we pray for our separated brethren on Good Friday.

And I’m not sure what, if anything, is hard to understand about this prayer for the unity of Christians (from this link to all the Good Friday Prayers of the Faithful):
Let us pray
For all our brothers and sisters
Who share our faith in Jesus Christ,
That God may gather and keep together in one church
All those who seek the truth with sincerity.

Almighty and eternal God,
You keep together those you have united.
Look kindly on all who follow Jesus your Son.
We are all consecrated to you by our common baptism.
Make us one in the fullness of faith,
And keep us one in the fellowship of love.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.
Amen.

As for Baptists and rituals (isn’t baptism itself a ritual?) here’s an excerpt from a sermon preached by the pastor of a Baptist church in Florida:

We think we don’t have rituals, but we do. The Baptist church I grew up in sang the “Gloria Patri” or “The Lord is in His Holy Temple” to start every worship service. We sang the Doxology at every offering. We do have rituals! We have offerings and offertory prayers and Preludes and Postludes and sermons and invitations. When we move our offering to the end of the service, some of you have a hard time even giving! Try singing a chorus in a traditional service that has never had choruses, or a hymn from the hymn book in a contemporary service! Try reciting the Lord’s Prayer in a gospel service and you will see how ritualistic we are! Someone said that the main ritual we Baptists have is getting in a room and counting each other!

 

[DebChris]

Hi

because some of you (either in this thread in my other one) have written about Catholic Schools:

I’ve never been in a Catholic School (maybe I would have learned more about my faith there and wouldn’t be in the situation I am now in!)!
But in a public school. Public Schools in Austria are (on the contrary to Britain or the US) good schools and most children visit Public Schools and only very few private and/or Catholic Schools!

I did, however, have RI (Religious Instruction) in elemantary school and junior and senior high school.

In elementary school we did learn about the basis of the CC - well just so that Children can understand (although I can’t remember anything from that time what we did in RI!)

In junior High we even had for the first 2 years a nun as a RI teacher. But my classmates were not intersted in RI and didn’t pay attention at all! So actually, also there I didn’t learn anything. Later on we had an RI teacher that later on became the decon in our home parish. - But the situation was the same, noone payed attention and it was loud in class and they played tricks on him, so also there I didn’t learn anything.

Preperation classes for confirmation I really don’t remember at all. I don’t know who teached us and also not what we actually did…

Well in senior high the time of catechising was over: There were only did more or less ethics and what the CC says on that position.

Catechising at home has never been.

So you see? I rose up in a Catholic country but never really were taught the Catholic faith!
Actually I don’t wonder at all that I so broke away (well, more or less) from the CC!
And frankly, I believe most others in my age and younger are in the same situation.
Well, maybe they won’ start searching like I did - maybe they just end up living their live as Atheists or try to find what they long for in their heart in occultism.

Esdra

Here we come to the crux of the matter. It is not that the Catholic Church failed to provide instruction. It was rather a personal decision not to take advantage of the instruction that was provided.
Along comes a group from outside the Catholic Church offering fellowship. The question that I posed earlier remains. Are you seeking friends, or are you seeking Christ?

Catholic school, except for a short period of time in grades 1 and 2, was not available to me. Yes, my faith was practiced within the home. No meal began without offering grace. As the priest offering the Advent mission said, “Christianity is the only religion that thanks God for meals.” The rosary was recited daily. It was not unusual for me to need to explain to non-Catholic friends why I was waiting for the bus every Wednesday to take me to catechism. They all went to Sunday school. We went to Sunday Mass as a family. My brother knew we “were home” regardless of where we lived, when my mother put up the Last Supper and Angelus in the dining area. The Agony in the Garden was in the living room, near the front door. We never left home without my mother’s blessing us. The last year that I received formal religious instruction was grade eight, when I was 14.

As JRKH has rightly pointed out, Christian unity does not come through separating ourselves from the Church that Christ established, regardless of how appealing the invite may appear. Conversion is a lifelong process that begins with acknowledging our own faults. It means acknowledging our need for God, without whom we can do nothing.

You stated that you found a “new family” when you found the Baptists, whom you describe more as Anabaptist. Consider the implications of that statement. Catholic means universal. The Catholic Church is your spiritual home, whether or not you recognize the richness that is available to you within its walls.
Are you seeking the gifts that God can provide, or are you seeking the Giver?

 

[Esdra]

Hi all,

yes, maybe I’ll go to Cursillo once as it is offered in my area.

Actually I was looking for Christ (and up to the time I was participating more here in CAF) I was pretty to sure to have found Him in my (Ana)baptist community.

But something is missing and I guess this is the reason why I am writing here in a Catholic forum…
I mean, despite the contemporary stuff and the rosary, I actually don’t even know what’s missing.
You may say confession and the Real Presence, but I guess that’s not what I am missing.
Actually, my pastor would say: Just quit writing here in CAF, but somehow I can’t do that either…

Esdra