The sin of pride

[Aquarius]

For the record, I wouldn’t stone the guy for collecting sticks on the sabbath.

Who would?

 

[JamesG]

Aquarius:

If you spoke to him, that’s amazing. If he spoke to you, that’s even more amazing. But, I bet someone told you he said those things. I think the group that claims the authority to do that is the Church. I bet an agent of the Church told you those things.

What I believe is that if Christ did exists and he wanted his message to be carried throughout the world then it would be protected and men would find it in their hearts to do so.

In other words, if there truely is a loving God then his word would resound in the world.

That truth is the message of Christ. It’s the only message that is truely focused on love, salvation, and eternal life.

The truth of the word is what tells me that it comes directly from God.

That is very reason why the gospel was not written from the perspective of a historical document or a bibliography. If it was then the truth about God and his message would be lost and people would not be able to find the hidden treasure.

You see, the kingdom of God is within you. That is proof enough.

 

[Aquarius]

JamesG:

What I believe is that if Christ did exists and he wanted his message to be carried throughout the world then it would be protected and men would find it in their hearts to do so.

In other words, if there truely is a loving God then his word would resound in the world.

That truth is the message of Christ. It’s the only message that is truely focused on love, salvation, and eternal life.

The truth of the word is what tells me that it comes directly from God.

That is very reason why the gospel was not written from the perspective of a historical document or a bibliography. If it was then the truth about God and his message would be lost and people would not be able to find the hidden treasure.

You see, the kingdom of God is within you. That is proof enough.

I think that is what the agents of the Church teach. They are men. They tell us these things.

 

[JamesG]

Aquarius:

For the record, I wouldn’t stone the guy for collecting sticks on the sabbath.

Who would?

You keeps saying this so let me ask you a question.

If it was ok to stone someone today would you? If the law said you had the right to would you?

Would stone someone who tortured, raped, and killed your family?

What higher power would you hold yourself accountable to? Would it simply be the law that is transient and changes over generations?

Would you listen to the message of Christ that tells us all to forgive and pray for our enemies?

 

[JamesG]

Aquarius:

I think that is what the agents of the Church teach. They are men. They tell us these things.

All you need do is open your heart and not your mind and you will see the truth.

There is nothing that needs to be said.

The victory of Christ is absolute.

 

[Aquarius]

JamesG:

You keeps saying this so let me ask you a question.

If it was ok to stone someone today would you? If the law said you had the right to would you?

Would stone someone who tortured, raped, and killed your family?

What higher power would you hold yourself accountable to? Would it simply be the law that is transient and changes over generations?

Would you listen to the message of Christ that tells us all to forgive and pray for our enemies?

1. This is the first time I have mentioned stoning.
2. I would not stone someone if the law said it was OK.
3. I would not stone someone who tortured, raped, and killed my family. Nor would I stone someone for collecting sticks on the sabbath.
4. I wouldn’t hold myself accountable to any higher power. I decide if I will stone people.
5. I am very skeptical of messages from men who claim to speak for God.

Would you stone someone for picking up sticks on the sabbath?

 

[Aquarius]

JamesG:

All you need do is open your heart and not your mind and you will see the truth.

There is nothing that needs to be said.

The victory of Christ is absolute.

Could be. But men tell us that.

 

[john_ennis]

Well. The thread certainly seems to be staying relevant to the topic of pride.

What I mean is, Pride is one sure means of convincing me that I ought to follow my own judgment. Pride tells me I can figure it out best. No law, no social norms, no religion, can be trusted to lead me right.
Maybe even no God…

The irony is, the surest way to become a slave to someone else’s values is to think I can follow my own judgment. I then become totally a product of the culture in which I move.

Look at the “freethinkers” with us. Remarkable, isn’t it, how they have freely arrived at the same values as our culture has progressed to? No “Authority” do they bend to, yet in every age they change–and they magically change as the culture has changed.

Civil rights for homosexuals? Yes, the religious skeptic says, This is just “who they are.”
Our culture agrees.

Civil rights for the baby diagnosed as Downs, in utero? The mother is likely to have her killed. But that is her choice, you know.
Our culture heartily agrees.

Where do the freethinkers show their free thought, their judgment untainted by Authority? Opinions on prostitution? Contraception? Drugs?

If I look for an Authority on morals, and Truth (if you dare to believe it exists), I’ll need something more firmly grounded than my own judgment. I’ll look for some source of beliefs that has been bafflingly resistant to popular trends of thought.

Wonder where I could look?

Peace.
John

 

[askeptic]

JamesG:

please explain what passage you are talking about. When did Christ ever affirm stoning?

You only have to read the words of christ to know that his message is the message of Love.

I mentioned this before:

Mark 7: 8 You disregard God’s commandment but cling to human tradition."
9 He went on to say, "How well you have set aside the commandment of God in order to uphold your tradition!
10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and ‘Whoever curses father or mother shall die.’ ** 11 Yet you say, ‘If a person says to father or mother, “Any support you might have had from me is qorban”’ 4 (meaning, dedicated to God),
12 you allow him to do nothing more for his father or mother.
13 You nullify the word of God in favor of your tradition that you have handed on. And you do many such things." **

He doesn’t explicitly say to stone, just that he should die. From the other quotes I posted and from my other reading of the Old Testament it seems that stoning was the common way to make a person die for breaking God’s law.

Either way, even if it’s not stoning, Jesus still seems to approve Moses’ teaching that person should die for “cursing” his mother or father.

Well now you are trying to change me into something I am not so that you can have a reason to condem my faith.

The mistakes that people made about the nature of God in the OT are the very evils that Jesus came to correct.

But doesn’t the Church say the OT is the “true word of God”? In the OT it is GOD who orders people who “curse” their parents to die:

Leviticus 20:
8 Be careful, therefore, to observe what I, the LORD, who make you holy, have prescribed.
9 "Anyone who curses his father or mother shall be put to death; since he has cursed his father or mother, he has forfeited his life.

Jesus seems to contradict himself, because in the first quote I posted it seems that he is reinforcing Moses’ law (deaths for trivial crimes included), and in other places he seems to change it (i.e. alter sabbath law). To me this is just more evidence that people who wrote the Gospels were putting bits of themselves into their writing, and this is why Jesus contradicts himself.

It’s not as though there are only a few stoning passages in the OT, the entire OT portrayes God is violent and vengeful.

Consider the Flood, why wipe out every human being, including innocent children? Consider the plagues sent upon the innocent Egyptian population to subudue the pharaoh. Consider the fact that God doesn’t bother to send an anti-slavery commandment, or an anti-polygamy commandment, or an anti-poor-treatment-of-women commandment, but seems far more concered with sacrificial laws and stoning people for breaking the commandments that he did send down.

 

[askeptic]

JamesG:

You keeps saying this so let me ask you a question.

If it was ok to stone someone today would you? If the law said you had the right to would you?

Would stone someone who tortured, raped, and killed your family?

What higher power would you hold yourself accountable to? Would it simply be the law that is transient and changes over generations?

Would you listen to the message of Christ that tells us all to forgive and pray for our enemies?

If God came down from heaven and told me to stone a poor guy who was picking up sticks on the sabbath I would tell God to go to hell.

 

[askeptic]

For the record, here are some stonings/deaths attributed to GOD:

Exodus 31:

12 **The LORD said to Moses, **
13 "You must also tell the Israelites: Take care to keep my sabbaths, for that is to be the token between you and me throughout the generations, to show that it is I, the LORD, who make you holy.
14 Therefore, you must keep the sabbath as something sacred. Whoever desecrates it shall be put to death. If anyone does work on that day, he must be rooted out of his people.
15 Six days there are for doing work, but the seventh day is the sabbath of complete rest, sacred to the LORD. Anyone who does work on the sabbath day shall be put to death.

Exodus 32:
24 So I told them, ‘Let anyone who has gold jewelry take it off.’ They gave it to me, and I threw it into the fire, and this calf came out."
25 **When Moses realized that, to the scornful joy of their foes, Aaron had let the people run wild, **
26 he stood at the gate of the camp and cried, **“Whoever is for the LORD, let him come to me!” All the Levites then rallied to him, **
27 3 and he told them, **“Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: Put your sword on your hip, every one of you! Now go up and down the camp, from gate to gate, and slay your own kinsmen, your friends and neighbors!” ** 28 The Levites carried out the command of Moses, and that day there fell about three thousand of the people.

Leviticus 20:

7 Sanctify yourselves, then, and be holy; for I, the LORD, your God, am holy.
8 Be careful, therefore, to observe what I, the LORD, who make you holy, have prescribed. **
9 "Anyone who curses his father or mother shall be put to death; since he has cursed his father or mother, he has forfeited his life.**
10 If a man commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death. **
18 **
If a man lies in sexual intercourse with a woman during her menstrual period, both of them shall be cut off from their people, because they have laid bare the flowing fountain of her blood.

Leviticus 20:
26 To me, therefore, you shall be sacred; for I, the LORD, am sacred, I, who have set you apart from the other nations to be my own.
27 1 “**A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortune-teller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.” **

Leviticus 24:
13 **The LORD then said to Moses, **
14 "**Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and when all who heard him have laid their hands on his head, let the whole community stone him. ** 15 Tell the Israelites: Anyone who curses his God shall bear the penalty of his sin;
16 whoever blasphemes the name of the LORD shall be put to death. The whole community shall stone him; alien and native alike must be put to death for blaspheming the LORD’S name.

Clearly these things are attributed to God, not man.

 

[Black_Jaque]

I don’t think it’s pride, I think it’s common sense. In my entire life I have not met anyone who I thought deserved to spend an eternity in hell. Can you think of anyone you think deserves to be in utter misery (worse than any kind of earthly torture) for an eternity?

Yes. Me.

But that has only come recently. For a long time I thought the way you thought. Then I became a father, and I learned what my father went through, and I now have a better understanding what The Father is all about.

As a young man, I saw much of my disobedience to my own father as rather petty - big deal. Now that I have my own children to love, I have a slight clue how much my own father loved me. When I think of the times I was a saucy brat I get tears in my eyes.

Same thing on a broader scale. When I look at all the good that our Father in Heaven has given me, I feel so small whenever I disobey.

The more you appreciate how much God The Father loves you the more you realize the ugliness of your most petty sins.

What do I deserve? HELL - for eternity!

BUT, there is mercy. We may never meet on this earth, but come judgement day, you’ll hopefully recognize me as the whimpering idiot begging for mercy at God’s feet.

 

[Black_Jaque]

As for the discussion regarding the Old Testament stoning vs. the New Testiment mercy:

James you are slightly incorrect, the OT is about God reaching man, not man reaching out for God. All of Judeo-Christianity is God reaching our for man - and supposedly that is unique among religions. Perhaps Aquarius of Askeptic might be more knowlegeable on other religions and can verify the uniqueness of this. Several OT examples include: God approaching Moses in the burning bush, God approaching Noah, God approaching Jonah - in all these tales the men were minding their own business when God reached out to them.

Now it seems to me that the OT seems to be teaching us about God’s justice. That’s how come the stonings etc. And that justice still applies. We probably still deserve to be stoned for working on the Sabbath.

However, the NT teaches us about God’s mercy. We are bound by both the OT justice, and the NT mercy. Therefore we should not accept work on the Sabbath, but we should show mercy to those who do. Showing mercy is not the same as showing acceptance.

There are two kinds of evil-doers that Christ encounters in the NT. One kind is repentent - like the woman caught in adultery, the other kind is non-repentent - like the pharisees. Notice how Jesus deals differently with the two kinds of sinners.

 

[Black_Jaque]

Ever wonder if God will eventually say, “And just how did you guys manage to come up with religion? I give you a wonderful life and you guys have to screw it up by inventing religion? And hell? That’s just insulting. Didn’t you trust me at all? Oh, well…OK. Everybody, and I do mean everybody, come along. There’s a lot more to come.”

Yes Aquarius I did wonder stuff similar to what you write. I don’t wonder that stuff anymore.

It is possible to closely examine the Catholic Faith, think really hard about it, and conclude that she is correct.

This business of the Tradition of the Faith being taught to us through men is precisely correct. However, if you can’t trust the teaching of men, then you have to discard almost everything you believe. There are actually some people who do not believe in the roundness of the earth claiming that the photos from outerspace are all corrupt. Do you realize how stupid these folks appear?

You have to assess the character and the truthfulness of the men teaching you. If you have not met a priest or bishop or any other Catholic that is of upright character that is truly regrettable and I cannot fault you for believing what you believe. The only reason I’m not taking your side right now is because I’ve met some truly wonderful Catholics in my life. I’ve met some horribly corrupt Catholics, and numerous totally lost Catholics also, but I wasn’t foolish enough to judge the entire faith on their testimony.

The beauty of the Catholic faith is you actually can find out what the “official” teaching is. So when you meet a Catholic couple who uses artificial birth control, and they claim that their priest told 'em it was OK, you can sort through the confusion and actually find out which teaching is the official one. The higher up you go, the more official it becomes. And there are differences between offhand comments over lunch vs. carefully thought out and deliberately published encyclicals. Guess which one is more official?

 

[Aquarius]

john ennis:

Well. The thread certainly seems to be staying relevant to the topic of pride.

What I mean is, Pride is one sure means of convincing me that I ought to follow my own judgment. Pride tells me I can figure it out best. No law, no social norms, no religion, can be trusted to lead me right.
Maybe even no God…

The irony is, the surest way to become a slave to someone else’s values is to think I can follow my own judgment. I then become totally a product of the culture in which I move.

Look at the “freethinkers” with us. Remarkable, isn’t it, how they have freely arrived at the same values as our culture has progressed to? No “Authority” do they bend to, yet in every age they change–and they magically change as the culture has changed.

Civil rights for homosexuals? Yes, the religious skeptic says, This is just “who they are.”
Our culture agrees.

Civil rights for the baby diagnosed as Downs, in utero? The mother is likely to have her killed. But that is her choice, you know.
Our culture heartily agrees.

Where do the freethinkers show their free thought, their judgment untainted by Authority? Opinions on prostitution? Contraception? Drugs?

If I look for an Authority on morals, and Truth (if you dare to believe it exists), I’ll need something more firmly grounded than my own judgment. I’ll look for some source of beliefs that has been bafflingly resistant to popular trends of thought.

Wonder where I could look?

Peace.
John

When you find that source of beliefs, it will be your own judgement that accepts it.

 

[Aquarius]

Black Jaque:

Yes. Me.

But that has only come recently. For a long time I thought the way you thought. Then I became a father, and I learned what my father went through, and I now have a better understanding what The Father is all about.

As a young man, I saw much of my disobedience to my own father as rather petty - big deal. Now that I have my own children to love, I have a slight clue how much my own father loved me. When I think of the times I was a saucy brat I get tears in my eyes.

Same thing on a broader scale. When I look at all the good that our Father in Heaven has given me, I feel so small whenever I disobey.

The more you appreciate how much God The Father loves you the more you realize the ugliness of your most petty sins.

What do I deserve? HELL - for eternity!

BUT, there is mercy. We may never meet on this earth, but come judgement day, you’ll hopefully recognize me as the whimpering idiot begging for mercy at God’s feet.

Exactly why do you deserve hell? For disobeying your father? Do your kids deserve hell for disobeying you?

 

[Aquarius]

Black Jaque:

As for the discussion regarding the Old Testament stoning vs. the New Testiment mercy:

James you are slightly incorrect, the OT is about God reaching man, not man reaching out for God. All of Judeo-Christianity is God reaching our for man - and supposedly that is unique among religions. Perhaps Aquarius of Askeptic might be more knowlegeable on other religions and can verify the uniqueness of this. Several OT examples include: God approaching Moses in the burning bush, God approaching Noah, God approaching Jonah - in all these tales the men were minding their own business when God reached out to them.

Now it seems to me that the OT seems to be teaching us about God’s justice. That’s how come the stonings etc. And that justice still applies. We probably still deserve to be stoned for working on the Sabbath.

However, the NT teaches us about God’s mercy. We are bound by both the OT justice, and the NT mercy. Therefore we should not accept work on the Sabbath, but we should show mercy to those who do. Showing mercy is not the same as showing acceptance.

There are two kinds of evil-doers that Christ encounters in the NT. One kind is repentent - like the woman caught in adultery, the other kind is non-repentent - like the pharisees. Notice how Jesus deals differently with the two kinds of sinners.

Hindu beliefs about incarnations of Krishna are classic examples of a religion believing God reaches for man.

 

[Aquarius]

Black Jaque:

Yes Aquarius I did wonder stuff similar to what you write. I don’t wonder that stuff anymore.

It is possible to closely examine the Catholic Faith, think really hard about it, and conclude that she is correct.

This business of the Tradition of the Faith being taught to us through men is precisely correct. However, if you can’t trust the teaching of men, then you have to discard almost everything you believe. There are actually some people who do not believe in the roundness of the earth claiming that the photos from outerspace are all corrupt. Do you realize how stupid these folks appear?

You have to assess the character and the truthfulness of the men teaching you. If you have not met a priest or bishop or any other Catholic that is of upright character that is truly regrettable and I cannot fault you for believing what you believe. The only reason I’m not taking your side right now is because I’ve met some truly wonderful Catholics in my life. I’ve met some horribly corrupt Catholics, and numerous totally lost Catholics also, but I wasn’t foolish enough to judge the entire faith on their testimony.

The beauty of the Catholic faith is you actually can find out what the “official” teaching is. So when you meet a Catholic couple who uses artificial birth control, and they claim that their priest told 'em it was OK, you can sort through the confusion and actually find out which teaching is the official one. The higher up you go, the more official it becomes. And there are differences between offhand comments over lunch vs. carefully thought out and deliberately published encyclicals. Guess which one is more official?

I have met many wonderful people of all faiths. That doesn’t mean they know what they are talking about. If it did, then their testimony would support many different faiths.

One can look up Catholic belief in documents, but men wrote those, too.

 

[askeptic]

Black Jaque:

Yes. Me.

But that has only come recently. For a long time I thought the way you thought. Then I became a father, and I learned what my father went through, and I now have a better understanding what The Father is all about.

As a young man, I saw much of my disobedience to my own father as rather petty - big deal. Now that I have my own children to love, I have a slight clue how much my own father loved me. When I think of the times I was a saucy brat I get tears in my eyes.

Same thing on a broader scale. When I look at all the good that our Father in Heaven has given me, I feel so small whenever I disobey.

The more you appreciate how much God The Father loves you the more you realize the ugliness of your most petty sins.

What do I deserve? HELL - for eternity!

BUT, there is mercy. We may never meet on this earth, but come judgement day, you’ll hopefully recognize me as the whimpering idiot begging for mercy at God’s feet.

Would you condemn any of your children to an eternity of torture and misery for disobeying you?

 

[askeptic]

Black Jaque:

As for the discussion regarding the Old Testament stoning vs. the New Testiment mercy:

James you are slightly incorrect, the OT is about God reaching man, not man reaching out for God. All of Judeo-Christianity is God reaching our for man - and supposedly that is unique among religions. Perhaps Aquarius of Askeptic might be more knowlegeable on other religions and can verify the uniqueness of this. Several OT examples include: God approaching Moses in the burning bush, God approaching Noah, God approaching Jonah - in all these tales the men were minding their own business when God reached out to them.

Now it seems to me that the OT seems to be teaching us about God’s justice. That’s how come the stonings etc. And that justice still applies. We probably still deserve to be stoned for working on the Sabbath.

However, the NT teaches us about God’s mercy. We are bound by both the OT justice, and the NT mercy. Therefore we should not accept work on the Sabbath, but we should show mercy to those who do. Showing mercy is not the same as showing acceptance.

There are two kinds of evil-doers that Christ encounters in the NT. One kind is repentent - like the woman caught in adultery, the other kind is non-repentent - like the pharisees. Notice how Jesus deals differently with the two kinds of sinners.

A key feature of justice is that the punishment should fit the crime.

Stoning for picking up some sticks on the sabbath is not a punishment that fits the crime.

An eternity in hell for deliberately missing mass and not repenting is also a punishment that does not fit the crime.

This is not justice.