The Society of St. Pius X

[katybird]

Thank you all. I went to a novus ordo mass today, instead of SSPX. I just dont think I an handel it. I’m going to try though. I just love TLM so much, but not enough to go to a licit mass. I really dont know what to do. Does anyone have advice about how I might go about getting a novus ordo church to say the TLM once on Sundays?

Your obedience is pleasing to God. The stories of the saints are full of instances where they have to obey ecclesiastical authority even when it seems unreasonable.

I can’t tell from your post if it’s the NO that you dislike or if you went to a particular NO that does things that you dislike. There are plenty of things that can annoy me at a NO Mass, but it can be celebrated in a way that I like a lot. At any rate, you might try to find a low-key NO Mass that annoys you LESS. Try the early morning Masses at various parishes… the crowd at a 7:00 am Mass will probably be older, and they often don’t even have an organist, which would mean less chance of being subjected to some music director’s annoying hymn choices. Later in the morning is when they start orienting things towards the children and young people and then you start to see more silliness.

I actually like a very traditional, EWTN-style NO Mass best, myself, or the NO in Latin. When I have to attend another parish, I can get pretty irritated with things like hand-holding and children doing the readings, etc. What I have to do is remind myself that it IS the Mass. My own personal tastes and grumpiness shouldn’t be indulged. I have to fight the urge to roll my eyes and be irritable and remind myself to be grateful for the opportunity to even be there. I may have to think about stories of secret Masses being performed in concentration camps, or of people risking their lives to even be able to receive the Eucharist… that can humble me enough to realize that some silly happy-clappy stuff doesn’t really matter, so long as the consecration is valid.

 

[MyPhilomena]

Bishop David Konstant of Leeds felt that the Latin Mass was a threat, so he only allowed one mass a year, at a crematorium, and with no publicity. So basically only Latin Mass society members attended…

a threat? to what???

 

[Jaypeeto3]

Isn’t it a bit harsh to call them heretics for holding on to the faith they had always known?

I understand your point of view, and I agree up to a point.
Certainly, those born into Eastern Orthodoxy do not share the guilt, personally, of FORMAL schism and FORMAL heresy that were incurred by the originators and the first few generations of people who held to the schism and heresy of rejecting the Successor of Saint Peter as head of the Church on Earth.

Still, what they believe about the Pope is heresy.
Therefore they are “material” heretics rather than “formal” heretics,
but the belief system is still heretical, sad to say, because there is much beauty and truth in the Eastern Orthodox Churches.
Still, for the Catholic Church to say officially, as it has in the Balamand Declaration, that the EOs do not need to convert to the Catholic Church for salvation, is a slap in the face to Catholic teaching, namely, that the only ones outside the Catholic Church who can be saved are the INCULPABLY ignorant. Not just ignorant, but INCULPABLY ignorant. The Balamand Declaration blanketly asserts that EOs have no need to convert, which borders on heresy.

The SSPX leaders committed the sin of schism when Abp. LeFebvre ordained four bishops without papal permission and, more pertinently, against papal orders. But the SSPX is more of a disobedient child, not a heretical child. The SSPX recognizes and proclaims the FACT of, the reality of, the Papacy, and accepts ALL defined Catholic dogmas. This is why I don’t understand the church’s fawning attitude toward the EOs while people seem to delight in bashing the non-heretical, but still disobedient, SSPX. It would seem to me that embracing doctrinal heresy is even more dangerous than an act of disobedience. I’m not condoning what LeFebvre did, but still I don’t understand why people give the EOs every benefit of the doubt when they are just as obstinate toward the Truth, even when it is shown to them.

Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3)

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Latin Mass] a threat? to what???

To the unity of the church, since if you have a group claiming that their alternative liturgy is superior, and another group rejecting it because of old-fashioned associations, you have a schism in the making. When you further have formally schismatic groups splitting over the issue of the Tridentine Rite, you can see why a bishop might be worried.

There is also the danger that Catholic theology will be distorted ina simplistic, reactionary way. So you end up with a church composed of a small group of highly eccentric, conservative people with degrees from places like Oxford and St Andrews, and not accessible to the ordinary man.

Bishops do have to be cautious. So we shouldn’t criticise too strongly when we don’t get our own way. Bishop Arthur, I think, is beginning to realise that the Latin Mass society might have been right all along. Bishop David, now retired, is not in good health, and I doubt he would want to take any further part in the controversy.

 

[chrisb]

Isn’t it a bit harsh to call them heretics for holding on to the faith they had always known?

Grace and Peace,

You could say that exact something concerning SSPX.

Peace.

 

[chrisb]

I am not SSPX, heck I don’t even attend the Latin Mass (though I wish there were an indult near my home), but sometimes I wish people would quit bashing the SSPX.

The Eastern Orthodox are not only schismatic, they are heretics in that they reject the authority of the Roman Pontiff completely and they reject the last FOURTEEN Ecumenical Councils of the Church and all doctrinal developments since the split in 1051 A.D., yet the Church, even the Vatican itself, FAWNS over these people, even going so far, in the Balamand Declaration, to declare that EO’s have no need to convert to the Catholic Church for their salvation, something unprecedented in Church history.

In light of that, bashing the SSPX seems a tad hypocritical to me.
I think we all have better things to do.
God bless all,
Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3)

Exactly! This is another example of the self hate that the west so enjoys inflicting on itself.

peace.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Pax vobiscum!

With regards to the Eastern Orthodox, they can’t really be called heretics in the full sense of the term. When the split happened and papal authority was rejected, the dogma of papal infallibility was still about 800 years from being defined. I don’t think that the term “heresy” would apply to denial of papal infallibility before it was defined. I could be wrong, however, but “schism” seems to be a better definition. Of course, there would be a difference if someone now converted to Orthodoxy and denied the authority of the pope.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[MyPhilomena]

I can sympathize with the SSPX over many many things, and understand alot as well. I don’t get why the TLM would be considered a threat? Still don’t get it, because the TLM was in existence for many centruries, and still is. The modern mass has lost alot of reverence, you see people wearing shorts to mass, using cell phones in the church, people laughing and talking like it is their own living room, hand clapping, hand shaking, holding hands during the Our Father, women wearing deep low cut blouses at mass, wearing super short skirts and high heels, and it makes them look like someone on the corner, people who wear heavy metal t shirts with demons on them, or whatever, it is scary to see the way things are going in the novus ordo…

there seems to be a lack of reverence that you don’t see at the TLM. The novus ordo seems to be getting to modern these days and that is very sad, while there may be novus ordo ones that are more reverent, there is far to many things that make the TLM very very appealing. This is why i attend the TLM and no longer go to the novus ordo. It is reverent, and it is old, and it is very lovely. the fact that i only understand bits of Latin matter not to me. it is very reverent and you wont see female altar servers in a TLM, you will see the communion rail, and alot of reverence and modestly dressed people. this is the way church should be, reverent and people dressing modestly and not laughing and hand clapping and talking on cell phones in mass! I totally sympathize with the SSPX , and can’t wait until the reconciliation takes place, i can guarentee to you that the SSPX chapels will over flow with new laity as well as the priesthood fill up very fast.

this should tell us something, people want the old mass back, and there are many here who will argue otherwise, but there are also many of us that would prefer it to be readily availble to all, and everyhwere so there are those that do not have to travel many hours and those who cannot afford to do so, would be nice to have them everywhere for us all. after being at the TLM for quite a while now, i can say that the novus ordo to me is not appealing at all. that is jmo, so your likely going to blast me, but oh well.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

I can sympathize with the SSPX over many many things, and understand alot as well. I don’t get why the TLM would be considered a threat? Still don’t get it, because the TLM was in existence for many centruries, and still is. The modern mass has lost alot of reverence, you see people wearing shorts to mass, using cell phones in the church, people laughing and talking like it is their own living room, hand clapping, hand shaking, holding hands during the Our Father, women wearing deep low cut blouses at mass, wearing super short skirts and high heels, and it makes them look like someone on the corner, people who wear heavy metal t shirts with demons on them, or whatever, it is scary to see the way things are going in the novus ordo…

The issue is, at what point does this sort of criticism of Novo Ordo spill over from being legitimate comment to a denial of the validity of the Mass? And if we can’t attend Mass in good conscience, because of the irreverent customs that have developed, then we are not far from schism.

So any bishop with any sense would be extremely worried about what you say. How to react is, of course, an open question. Things aren’t always as simple as they appear, for instance a girl in miniskirts is better in Mass than in the nightclub, and we don’t want girls to think that Catholic churches are only for prudes who never go out for a night, and dress unfashionably.

My own view is that prostitutes are exactly the people we need to attract to drive the church forwards, and that you do it by having a very traditional, set liturgy. But if an energetic young priest thinks that informality is the way to fill the pews, I am not going to try to undermine him.

 

[MyPhilomena]

iam not in schism by any means, only stating the reasons why i prefer to be in the TLM. I do not see the TLM as a threat and never have.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

iam not in schism by any means, only stating the reasons why i prefer to be in the TLM. I do not see the TLM as a threat and never have.

No, I didn’t mean to imply that you were. I was saying that you could be starting a process that may lead to a danger of schism, unless the bishop does something to head it off. I agree with a lot of what you say about Novo Ordo services, but any Catholic must be prepared to attend any Mass. Once we lose that assumption, we are in very dangerous territory indeed.

 

[MyPhilomena]

i wont cause schism with anyone. i prefer the TLM, and that is my choice. are you saying that my bishop needs to step in here and stop what i said? what did i say that was wrong? nothing. i stated things i’ve observed at the novus ordo when i attended it, what is wrong with me stating things i’ve observed?

 

[MyPhilomena]

LilyM was gracious enough to translate this for me, i found it at a Catholic website so it seems the rumours of the Society coming into communion with Rome are untrue then right?

“Response to a Le Figaro article of Monday 16 October 2006.”

“Le Figaro, on Monday 16 October 2006, published an article by Sophie de Ravinel entitled “Lefebvrists: Rome about to lift sanctions”. This article, which supposedly announces the sending of a message to the Pope by Mgr Fellay demanding the withdrawal of the excommunication, contains two mistakes which lead to an untruth.”

“Sophie de Ravinel confuses the two prerequisites stated by Mgr Fellay at the beginning of 2001 (liberalisation of the traditional Mass and retraction of the decree of excommunication) with the “spiritual bouquet” of a million chaplets (rosaries) which he offered to the Pope at the end of October to demand the freedom of the Tridentine Mass.”

"And she confuses this spiritual bouquet addressed to the Pope with the response made by Mgr Fellay to a letter of Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos. In this letter of last June – which was published (at the time?) – there was neither any mention of an “immediate return to the mass in Latin” nor any call in the letter for the “reestablishment of full communion with the See of Peter” "

"These distinctions made, it is false to assert, as Sophie de Ravinel has done, that “the superior of this Fraternity founded by Mgr Lefebvre in 1970 has in effect announced in the Figaro his intention of sending a message to Benedict XVI containing this request (for the lifting of the sanctions) along with a demand for the liberalisation of the mass of the Tridentine rite … and that this is “in response to a message sent roughly four months ago by Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos”. "

“The Figaro article uses lots of conditional language … (this next bit doesn’t translate well, at least to someone whose French is a little rusty like mine) … One would like less speculation and more facts. The result is that this article gives a profoundly false impression of the state of relations between Rome and the SSPX.”

“Instead of attributing to the Superior General remarks which he hasn’t made, it seems preferable to us to make available to everyone, on the site of DICI, the complete recording of the conference which he gave at Villepreux on Saturday 14 October, during which he shows exactly where relations are between Rome and Econe. One can see in what terms precisely Mgr Fellay speaks of “withdrawal of the decree of excommunication”, which he distinguishes well from a lifting of sanctions.”

“Click here to hear the conference given by Mgr Fellay at Villepreux on 14 October 2006.”

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

i wont cause schism with anyone. i prefer the TLM, and that is my choice. are you saying that my bishop needs to step in here and stop what i said? what did i say that was wrong? nothing. i stated things i’ve observed at the novus ordo when i attended it, what is wrong with me stating things i’ve observed?

[previous]
The modern mass has lost alot of reverence, you see people wearing shorts to mass, using cell phones in the church, people laughing and talking like it is their own living room, hand clapping, hand shaking, holding hands during the Our Father, women wearing deep low cut blouses at mass, wearing super short skirts and high heels, and it makes them look like someone on the corner, people who wear heavy metal t shirts with demons on them, or whatever, it is scary to see the way things are going in the novus ordo…

This is what you said. It is not wrong to say these things, if that’s the way you feel, and we’ve also got to remember that in debate forum like this people often exaggerate to make the point.

However your statements are very worrying. Any bishop would see an incipient schism in the making, and want to head things off. Which might mean suppressing Tridentine Masses for a time to prevent a two-stream church from emerging. I would hope that he would also start taking action against some of the abuses you have noted.

When you say “TLM is my choice”, you are not being entirely accurate. Your normal Sunday Mass should be in the parish where you reside, not where you like the priest or the style of Mass. If there is more than one Mass on Sunday and one is Tridentine, then of course you may attend the Tridentine Mass. It is also licit to occasionally attend another parish, as long as it does not constitute a rejection or boycott of your own parish.

Having said that, so many Catholics don’t attend at all that to pull someone up for attending the wrong church would be rather scrupulous.

 

[Trident59]

Good posts Jaypeeto, Chrisb and MyPhilomena.
Although I don’t have the luxury of an Indult Mass closer than 1 1/2 hours each way, I attend Mass every Sunday and Adoration at least once a week and an occassional mid week Mass. Almost all are NO Masses. Some are reverent and some are “way out”.

As a former SSPX’er, I returned to the NO in 1988, I can sympathize with the Society, but still can’t bring myself to go back to them. I am not solidly educated in liturgical law and I can see from these forums that not many of these folks are any better educated than I am.

So where does that leave us? I plan to continue shopping for a reverent Mass and "if " and when the Tridentine, is permitted to return, then I WILL attend that parish and no other. And yes there will be some priests that elect to say the TLM. The day WILL come when I won’t have to drive 90+ miles each way. Until then I’ll continue to visit new parishes and meet different priests. I make it a point to talk with each parish priest that I visit and kind of sound him out. So far I’ve been rather encouraged by their reception to some of my questions about the possibility of the freeing of the Tridentine.

My general impression is that the younger priests are more traditionally oriented and receptive to the Tridentine Mass. My only concerns are the Bishops. Some dioceses will flourish with the Tridentine Mass while others will starve from the prohibitions.

Prayer and Patience!

 

[KyrieEleison]

There is only one NO church in the city I live in and they have a 45 year old alter girl. Which is why it is so hard for me to decide what to do right now. The SSPX is so revrent, but I really want to be in the right pew, and right now I’m not sure what that is. There are great arguments both for and against the SSPX, so I’m having a really hard time. I wrote and email to my dioses and they wrote back and told me that our bishop doesnt allow the TLM… I just dont know what to do. Go to a church with devil worshiping teens, proud old people that hate confession, and a loud alter woman who is totaly irrevrent in the presence of the blessed sacrament, or risk possible schism.

90 miles is better than nothing…

 

[Trident59]

Kyrie,

I’ve got the video(CD) on St. Thomas Beckett Church and Academy.

I don’t know that if I was that close that I could resist going back to SSPX. However, check out St Joseph’s in Salem. I think they have a Latin Mass one a week. Also, Portland isn’t that far from you. They have an Indult, but its really early on Sunday. Or go to Cantoresinecclesia.org and get on their mailing list. They sing gregorian at Immacullate Heart in Portland for Latin Masses on saturday evening and every Sunday at Holy Rosary, also Portland at the 11:00am for the NO Mass. (Very Reverant)

 

[Atreyu]

Go to a church with devil worshiping teens, proud old people that hate confession, and a loud alter woman who is totaly irrevrent in the presence of the blessed sacrament, or risk possible schism.

Why not stay in this church and be a good witness for the (not so-) faithful there? You could achieve a lot of good in such a situation. Who is more in need of a doctor: a hospital or a fitness club?

Also, I just want to point out that it is completely licit to have a female altar server. On the other hand, if she is being irreverent then you should raise this problem with the priest or probably the bishop.

 

[KyrieEleison]

It’s a wacked out church… is that bad to say? She is the administrator and you have to have her permission to talk to the priest.

 

[Atreyu]

It’s a wacked out church… is that bad to say? She is the administrator and you have to have her permission to talk to the priest.

You can’t make an appointment with the priest? I think you should write to the bishop.