The Soul and the Brain

[MikiBee]

I have a very hard time believing our soul is tied in any way to our brain. There are people, that were mentioned earlier in this thread, that are born without brains… just a brain stem which only sustains life very briefly, there are numerous neurological diseases which render the brain incapable of rational thought, many diseases such as dementia and alzheimers that cause one to lose their memory. There are people in hospitals that are clinically brain dead. If the soul were tied to the brain-- why doesn’t the soul “kick in” and take over the brain’s responses. If the soul was capable of memory and logical thought, people would continue to function normally with brain traumas. If someone has suffered severe brain trauma, or perhaps brain dead, what exactly is the soul doing? There is no thought process or consciousness anymore? How is the soul contributing to the personality of the person?

What about people with psychological problems such as anxiety, depression, schizophrenia among others that alter a person’s perceptions? Is that causing a blemish to the soul? If the soul is “what makes us who we are” what about the clinically depressed? Is that who they are? How can the soul be tied to these chemicals which, in so many people, are very faulty? What about people who commit suicide? Wouldn’t their soul prevent them from carrying it out? If the soul was tied to the brain, I would have to believe it would absolutely prevent suicide.

I just can’t wrap my mind around how the soul is capable of any awareness considering all of the many things that can and do go wrong with the brain. I’d love for someone to be able to simplify this all for me. You all seem to be much smarter than I am. lol

 

[grannymh]

Sounds like we’re at the good old question of “why are we here” to me.

Yup.

 

[GEddie]

I have a very hard time believing our soul is tied in any way to our brain. There are people, that were mentioned earlier in this thread, that are born without brains… just a brain stem which only sustains life very briefly, there are numerous neurological diseases which render the brain incapable of rational thought, many diseases such as dementia and alzheimers that cause one to lose their memory. There are people in hospitals that are clinically brain dead. If the soul were tied to the brain-- why doesn’t the soul “kick in” and take over the brain’s responses. If the soul was capable of memory and logical thought, people would continue to function normally with brain traumas. If someone has suffered severe brain trauma, or perhaps brain dead, what exactly is the soul doing? There is no thought process or consciousness anymore? How is the soul contributing to the personality of the person?

What about people with psychological problems such as anxiety, depression, schizophrenia among others that alter a person’s perceptions? Is that causing a blemish to the soul? If the soul is “what makes us who we are” what about the clinically depressed? Is that who they are? How can the soul be tied to these chemicals which, in so many people, are very faulty? What about people who commit suicide? Wouldn’t their soul prevent them from carrying it out? If the soul was tied to the brain, I would have to believe it would absolutely prevent suicide.

I just can’t wrap my mind around how the soul is capable of any awareness considering all of the many things that can and do go wrong with the brain. I’d love for someone to be able to simplify this all for me. You all seem to be much smarter than I am. lol

So what is your idea of “soul?”

 

[grannymh]

I have a very hard time believing our soul is tied in any way to our brain. There are people, that were mentioned earlier in this thread, that are born without brains… just a brain stem which only sustains life very briefly, there are numerous neurological diseases which render the brain incapable of rational thought, many diseases such as dementia and alzheimers that cause one to lose their memory. There are people in hospitals that are clinically brain dead. If the soul were tied to the brain-- why doesn’t the soul “kick in” and take over the brain’s responses. If the soul was capable of memory and logical thought, people would continue to function normally with brain traumas. If someone has suffered severe brain trauma, or perhaps brain dead, what exactly is the soul doing? There is no thought process or consciousness anymore? How is the soul contributing to the personality of the person?

What about people with psychological problems such as anxiety, depression, schizophrenia among others that alter a person’s perceptions? Is that causing a blemish to the soul? If the soul is “what makes us who we are” what about the clinically depressed? Is that who they are? How can the soul be tied to these chemicals which, in so many people, are very faulty? What about people who commit suicide? Wouldn’t their soul prevent them from carrying it out? If the soul was tied to the brain, I would have to believe it would absolutely prevent suicide.

I just can’t wrap my mind around how the soul is capable of any awareness considering all of the many things that can and do go wrong with the brain. I’d love for someone to be able to simplify this all for me. You all seem to be much smarter than I am. lol

A couple of weeks ago, a retired philosophy professor gently told me that my idea of soul was in need of major correction. lol.

Perhaps, the first thing to do is to step back and look at our soul as the spiritual element of our human nature. Personally, I’m not adept at handling the Catechism but I do like to use it. Here’s the link.

 

[GEddie]

A couple of weeks ago, a retired philosophy professor gently told me that my idea of soul was in need of major correction. lol.

Perhaps, the first thing to do is to step back and look at our soul as the spiritual element of our human nature. Personally, I’m not adept at handling the Catechism but I do like to use it. Here’s the link.

Hmmmm… professor of secular or Catholic philosophy???

I do agree that the classical idea of ‘soul’ as a kind of bubble of feeling that breaks loose at death to exist happily in a bodiless state, needs to be deep-sixed, about nineteen hundred years ago

ICXC NIKA

 

[grannymh]

Hmmmm… professor of secular or Catholic philosophy???

I do agree that the classical idea of ‘soul’ as a kind of bubble of feeling that breaks loose at death to exist happily in a bodiless state, needs to be deep-sixed, about nineteen hundred years ago

ICXC NIKA

He is professor of Catholic philosophy and very knowledgeable about modern (any kind) philosophy.

Where did you get the idea of “soul” as a kind of bubble feeling? And I thought my concept was off the wall.

On the other hand, I only slept through part of my philosophy course due to the fact that the prof would come down the aisle to the back and throw open the window in the middle of winter to wake me up. Where were you sleeping?

 

[MikiBee]

So what is your idea of “soul?”

Well, the more I think about it, the less I really understand. I used to think it was our essence… our personality, the voice in our head so to speak… our “awareness.”

Then I start thinking about mentally challenged people-- and I wonder how the soul fits in this instance. What about the baby born without a functioning brain? They have no personality, no thought. What about brain dead people? They have no personality, no thought. So how can their soul be their essence? When they die will their soul be as empty as their personality was when they were alive?

I went through a severe depression… a nervous breakdown so to speak, about 2 years ago. Who I was at that time was SO different from who I really am. I was very tortured. I literally thought the world had opened up and hell swallowed me. I really thought I was in hell, and I thought there was no way out. Was that my soul? What if I were to die in that state? Would my soul be locked into that “essence” for all eternity?

And what about people who suffer amnesia and then die. Are their souls just empty shells as well?

OR, does God restore our souls upon our death to the very best part of our potential on earth? When the baby born without a brain dies, is his soul transformed into what it would have been had it had a brain to make memories? Would the depressed soul become happy when released from the bonds of the chemically disfunctioned brain?

I just don’t want to think my soul is tied to my psyche. Psyches change all the time. I don’t want my soul to be in such flux.

 

[grannymh]

Well, the more I think about it, the less I really understand. I used to think it was our essence… our personality, the voice in our head so to speak… our “awareness.”

Then I start thinking about mentally challenged people-- and I wonder how the soul fits in this instance. What about the baby born without a functioning brain? They have no personality, no thought. What about brain dead people? They have no personality, no thought. So how can their soul be their essence? When they die will their soul be as empty as their personality was when they were alive?

I went through a severe depression… a nervous breakdown so to speak, about 2 years ago. Who I was at that time was SO different from who I really am. I was very tortured. I literally thought the world had opened up and hell swallowed me. I really thought I was in hell, and I thought there was no way out. Was that my soul? What if I were to die in that state? Would my soul be locked into that “essence” for all eternity?

And what about people who suffer amnesia and then die. Are their souls just empty shells as well?

OR, does God restore our souls upon our death to the very best part of our potential on earth? When the baby born without a brain dies, is his soul transformed into what it would have been had it had a brain to make memories? Would the depressed soul become happy when released from the bonds of the chemically disfunctioned brain?

I just don’t want to think my soul is tied to my psyche. Psyches change all the time. I don’t want my soul to be in such flux.

Hold on MikiBee,

Your soul is steady. It is not tied to your psyche. Frankly, there are a lot of misconceptions about soul on this thread so it would be better to start over and think about the soul as a marvelous spiritual part of your human nature. I like to think that my soul is what connects me to God; however, soul is really more than that.

Right now, I am somewhat frazzled due to helping one of my kids get a job. I will either get back to you later or find someone who can clear up things for you. I will do another quick post to answer your above questions.

Blessings,

Human life is meant for eternal life.

 

[Shredderbeam]

If you mean by “mind” the intellectual ability to reason etc. then it is the function of the soul. Human death separates soul from body. At the resurrection the spiritual and corporeal elements will once again be united in a glorified form.

Then why does damage to certain parts of the brain impair one’s ability to reason, partially or entirely? Also, what do you think of animals that are capable of reason?

How do you know there is no sense of consciousness or awareness when certain parts of the brain have been shut down? There is no apparent sense of consciousness or awareness when a person is asleep does that mean the mind ceases to exist?

I know that there is no sense of consciousness or awareness because I have gone under general anesthesia.

There is some sense of consciousness when a person is sleeping, depending on what stage of sleep they are in.

 

[GEddie]

He is professor of Catholic philosophy and very knowledgeable about modern (any kind) philosophy.

Where did you get the idea of “soul” as a kind of bubble feeling? And I thought my concept was off the wall.

On the other hand, I only slept through part of my philosophy course due to the fact that the prof would come down the aisle to the back and throw open the window in the middle of winter to wake me up. Where were you sleeping?

It wasn’t my idea. But going back to Socrates, the idea that soul is some kind of “conscious nothing” that can happily exist bodilessly, has flown in the face of all human experience.

May I ask what was your idea of “soul” that invited his correction?

I got the “bubble” from a childrens book about death and Heaven that I saw some years ago, that depicted the soul as a bubble with a heart in it, breaking loose from the mid body at the moment of death and floating free. Yow. If that is what children are being taught about Heaven…no mind, no senses, no movement, just heart and feelings and mindless darkness… if Heaven is like that, who needs Hell!!!

ICXC NIKA.

 

[tonyrey]

Then why does damage to certain parts of the brain impair one’s ability to reason, partially or entirely?

Because the brain is an instrument - not a responsible agent. Damage to the brain impairs one’s ability to communicate and observe. It does not unbalance or destroy the mind…

Also, what do you think of animals that are capable of reason?

There are no animals that are capable of grasping abstract concepts like truth or infinity or love…

I know that there is no sense of consciousness or awareness because I have gone under general anesthesia.

Consciousness under general anesthesia is a common occurrence:
sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060131091435.htm

 

[grannymh]

It wasn’t my idea. But going back to Socrates, the idea that soul is some kind of “conscious nothing” that can happily exist bodilessly, has flown in the face of all human experience.

May I ask what was your idea of “soul” that invited his correction?

I got the “bubble” from a childrens book about death and Heaven that I saw some years ago, that depicted the soul as a bubble with a heart in it, breaking loose from the mid body at the moment of death and floating free. Yow. If that is what children are being taught about Heaven…no mind, no senses, no movement, just heart and feelings and mindless darkness… if Heaven is like that, who needs Hell!!!

ICXC NIKA.

Briefly, my idea of soul was an interpretation of Cartesian dualism. I am avoiding a complete answer because it is really silly. Weird thing is that it didn’t change my faith. Actually, Catholic philosophy goes back to St. Thomas Aquinas who studied Aristotle and ‘Hylomorphism’ or Hylemorphism. Apparently, he chose Aristotle over the others. St. Thomas Aquinas was chosen because he made the most sense.

If you bribe me with chocolate, I may detail my form of dualism.

 

[MikiBee]

Because the brain is an instrument - not a responsible agent. Damage to the brain impairs one’s ability to communicate and observe. It does not unbalance or destroy the mind…

Oh, that is so very wrong. Brain damage can indeed unbalance and destroy the mind. It can turn a very docile person into a very violent person, a happy person into a sad person, a peaceful person into someone capable of murder. Your “mind” is largely determined by your mood, which is largely determined by experience, even hormones. If anything is off, your whole mindset will change. Even stress can unbalance the mind. Just ask a war vet suffering PTSD or someone in clinical depression or psychosis. They are NOT in their right mind at all.

Are you saying that every form of brain damage or injury results in only being “trapped” in your mind being completely “normal” in thinking, but unable to express it?

 

[tonyrey]

Oh, that is so very wrong. Brain damage can indeed unbalance and destroy the mind. It can turn a very docile person into a very violent person, a happy person into a sad person, a peaceful person into someone capable of murder.

You are confusing a person’s behaviour with the person. Do you consider a brain-damaged person to be responsible for his/her behaviour?

Your “mind” is largely determined by your mood, which is largely determined by experience, even hormones. If anything is off, your whole mindset will change.

“largely” is the key word. Why not completely? Don’t you have any control over your moods?

Even stress can unbalance the mind. Just ask a war vet suffering PTSD or someone in clinical depression or psychosis. They are NOT in their right mind at all.

You are now referring to the mind and not the brain - as if they are distinct…

Are you saying that every form of brain damage or injury results in only being “trapped” in your mind being completely “normal” in thinking, but unable to express it?

There is medical evidence that this occurs.

 

[catholic1seeks]

**That’s weird.

We’re using our brains to think about our brains thinking about our brains.** :hypno::hypno:

 

[liquidpele]

There is medical evidence that this occurs.

So post it! I’d love to take a gander.

 

[MikiBee]

You are confusing a person’s behaviour with the person. Do you consider a brain-damaged person to be responsible for his/her behaviour?

No, I do not. That is why I was arguing that your statement that “brain damage does not unbalance or destroy the mind.” It certainly does.

“largely” is the key word. Why not completely? Don’t you have any control over your moods?

Sometimes completely, it depends on the condition. I do have control of my emotions most of the time. But it’s impossible to control them all the time. Ask any mother who has just lost her child if she can control her state of mind.

You are now referring to the mind and not the brain - as if they are distinct…
There is medical evidence that this occurs.

No, you were the one stating that brain damage cannot destroy the “mind.” It certainly can. Again, ask anyone who has been touched by a family member with either dementia or alzheimers. Both of those diseases can drastically alter one’s personality. So does that mean their soul is altered as well? ? (for those of you who believe your soul is your personality?)

And yes, I completely agree with you that people can be trapped in their minds. I have read first-hand accounts of people having a stroke and being completely aware of everything, but having no ability to move or communicate. I have also heard of people under general anaesthesia that failed, and were conscious, yet paralyzed during their surgeries.

 

[grannymh]

No, I do not. That is why I was arguing that your statement that “brain damage does not unbalance or destroy the mind.” It certainly does.

---

No, you were the one stating that brain damage cannot destroy the “mind.” It certainly can. Again, ask anyone who has been touched by a family member with either dementia or alzheimers. Both of those diseases can drastically alter one’s personality. So does that mean their soul is altered as well? ? (for those of you who believe your soul is your personality?)

Could it be, that some of us are interchanging common words like mind, brain, soul, personality, etc.? In reality, could some of these common words have more than one meaning?

There are a couple of ways that the word mind has been used. For example, the statement – " I was arguing that your statement that “brain damage does not unbalance or destroy the mind.” It certainly does." Here the mind is seen as being damaged because of the brain’s unbalanced state. It looks like the word mind is also being used in the sense of the soul which is spiritual. So in that sense, the soul remains as always the spiritual component of human nature.

To get on the same page, there has to be an understanding of the relationship of the material brain with the spiritual soul.

MikiBee, when I read your post/statement, I would say that the first meaning of the above is when the material brain is damaged, then the way it operates is also damaged. If the brain is seen like a machine in a factory, one could say that when the machine (brain) is damaged, the product (the way the mind/brain works) also suffers.

Here is a second way to look at the brain. When a new machine (brain) comes to a factory, it comes with all kinds of specifications, instructions and descriptions of what the machine can do in order to produce a product (the way the mind/brain works).

Suppose a tornado hits and destroys the factory and the new machine (brain). Of course, there can’t be any products made by the machine (the mind or brain can’t work properly). Yet, the specifications, instructions for the machine still exist but they can’t be used until the machine (brain) is repaired back to its original condition. These specifications are like the capabilities of the soul. The soul needs the brain (machine) to act or put into action ideas, choices, etc.

In the first example, the common use of mind is like the product of the brain. Here one’s mind – meaning thinking, emotions, etc., needs the properly working brain. When there is a chemical imbalance in the physical brain, the brain does not function properly, consequently one’s thinking, etc. is abnormal. An extremely stressful day can cause one to say “I’ve lost my mind.”

The second example explains the relationship of the spiritual soul. The spiritual soul gives humans the ability to think and reason beyond what would be considered that of sentient animals. The soul, because it is spiritual, is created by God and gives human beings the ability to share in God’s life. The soul also has free will so that humans can choose whether or not to love God.

In the second example, the soul through its capability to reason, etc., has the instructions for the brain. If the brain is damaged, the instructions are still valid but unused.

The spiritual soul has the instructions or capabilities to reason intellectually and to make choices. The soul, being spiritual, uses the material brain as its operating instrument because we live in a material world. That’s life.

What is happening in some of the posts is that mind is being used as another word for the spiritual soul. On the other hand, others are using mind as a function of the brain. This leads to confusion about our souls.

In reality, we, as a human being, are both spiritual and material. The spiritual soul and the material body are intimately united to form the one person. Our material body is subject to all the junk of our material world. Our spiritual soul unites us to God through the Catholic Sacraments, especially the Eucharist, and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

When we pray, even when our prayer is “why me”, our soul is communicating with our Creator. When we long to be free from physical and mental pain, our soul is in communication with Jesus Who knows suffering first hand.

When one of my kids would lose all contact with reality, his spiritual soul remained intact. Another kid, recovering from the effects of alcoholism , found it difficult to get back to his spiritual foundation. His soul needed help so on a whim, he asked for a rosary. Our Blessed Mother has been helping him ever since. Both kids have had setbacks. Their bodies, including their brain, emotions, personality, etc. are feeling the effects of disease.

Their spiritual souls are still full of God’s grace and love.

Blessings,
granny

The human being is the apple of God’s eye.

 

[Shredderbeam]

Because the brain is an instrument - not a responsible agent. Damage to the brain impairs one’s ability to communicate and observe. It does not unbalance or destroy the mind…

That is not true. Damage to the brain can destroy a person’s ability to think, their ability to distinguish shapes or colors, form abstract ideas - in short, everything that the mind is capable of doing. This suggests very, very strongly that the rational mind has a material basis.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_damage
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traumatic_brain_injury
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontal_lobe_injury

tonyrey:

There are no animals that are capable of grasping abstract concepts like truth or infinity or love…

Yet there are animals that are capable of reasoning to achieve goals, such as coordinated group hunting, using tools, and even communicating with humans using ASL (in the case of chimpanzees and gorillas).

tonyrey:

Consciousness under general anesthesia is a common occurrence:
sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060131091435.htm

It is not a common occurrence. Anesthesial awareness is quite rare (under 1% of surgeries), and occurs when a patient has not been properly anesthetized. When it is done properly, they are not aware.

 

[grannymh]

That is not true. Damage to the brain can destroy a person’s ability to think, their ability to distinguish shapes or colors, form abstract ideas - in short, everything that the mind is capable of doing. This suggests very, very strongly that the rational mind has a material basis.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_damage
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traumatic_brain_injury
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontal_lobe_injury

On another thread, we are examining the scientific evidence regarding a material source for volition which obviously is related to the rational intellect. This is off topic for this tread; however, the current assumptions regarding a material source are having difficulty in the real world of science.

The spiritual soul, as an essential component of human nature, is still a fact of truth.