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JohnDom
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So what is your interpretation of what is stated? I know God to be unbreakable Oneness and the basic gospel message to be that we are one with this Oneness.
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Vico
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We cannot become God in His transcendent essence, however we can become the image of God holding nothing earthly in ourselves. Ephesians 2:4-7
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spiderweb
Guest
There is a very real problem with your position. It is inconsistent with itself. On the one hand you say that time is not a reality except in our minds. Then you say that Jesus is a real person and the significance of the purity of a virgin. Newsflash, Every woman is a virgin until they no longer are which involves time. Jesus being born of a virgin took place in time. Mary was not a mother, and then at the proper moment in time, became a mother. What sins of the world did the Lamb of God take away? Sins have to be committed before they could be forgiven which again involves a chronological order involving time. You were a Catholic for 35 years (time again) then changed your beliefs probably as gradual change (once again over time).
People can come up with all kinds of bizarre ideas and even use a passage or two from the Bible that seem to support that idea, but you can’t take one or two verses in isolation from the Bible and create an entire theology out of it. God has revealed his Truth to us, we don’t have to reinvent or deny what God has already revealed. The reason why Jesus created his Church is so that we could know the difference between Truth and error, not just others errors, but our own errors as well.
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JohnDom
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There are different levels of interpretation. The literal interpretation of the scriptures depend on time and that is how we can tell they are man-made. That doesn’t necessarily mean anything bad. It just means that they point to something bigger, larger which transends time. The Gospel message is true it’s just not literal. God is timelessness in itself. It’s difficult for the personality to imagine this. It takes multiple instances of hearing this and examining it from multiple angles until it becomes a reality. One has to be willing to throw away everything one knows, everything we’ve been accustomed to believing. There are no beliefs to hang onto, no mind, no thought, no body, no hope, no past, no future. This is the passage to the soul which requires realizing and letting go of what is false to see what is real. It’s a treacherous journey and few will take it far enough because it seems like the cost is too great but it’s the opposite I tell you. He who tries to save their life will lose it and vice versa.
Ultimately time is a construct of the mind and the mind is man made. We take time and the mind to be so real that we can’t even think about their non existence. We don’t question it. Meanwhile the enemy lays quietly in the background undetected so as not to draw attention. It’s the attitude of the personality to hang on to things very fiercely but the soul is a letting go in service of acceptance of the truth.
Time and the mind are prime examples of the unconscious forces that keep us locked in the prison of the personality. We don’t want to challenge these forces because of fear there will be nothing left. The personality doesn’t know when to quit judging. It thinks letting go of the mind and time and the resulting spaciousness and emptiness are bad, wrong, atrocious, repulsive, distasteful. These are the beginning elements to facing what is infinite and eternal. The clinging to any belief whatsoever (including belief in time and the mind) is exactly what moves us away from this infinite and eternal spaciousness. This is not freedom, it’s bondage. The harder we resist by being a Catholic the worse off we are. Being a good Catholic can not replace the genuine self worth of the soul. Noice the willingness to trade for the infinite eternal identity of the soul because we’re proud of who think we are. We don’t want to lose what we’ve invested in our comfortable familiar self.
We really need to examine the attitude of attachment itself. Why are we so attached and why are so attached to always being attached? We need to see every reason and make that the number one goal of our lives at all times. We must know the enemy so deeply that we begin to see it’s not real. We just bought it into its reality because of peer pressure to conform to social roles for example. Remember Jesus asked who can enter a strong mans house and plunder his goods without first tying him up. This refers to the fact we must overpower the personality before we can reveal the treasures of the Kingdom buried deep within. It’s a tall order which often takes a lifetime or two.
Ultimately time is a construct of the mind and the mind is man made. We take time and the mind to be so real that we can’t even think about their non existence. We don’t question it. Meanwhile the enemy lays quietly in the background undetected so as not to draw attention. It’s the attitude of the personality to hang on to things very fiercely but the soul is a letting go in service of acceptance of the truth.
Time and the mind are prime examples of the unconscious forces that keep us locked in the prison of the personality. We don’t want to challenge these forces because of fear there will be nothing left. The personality doesn’t know when to quit judging. It thinks letting go of the mind and time and the resulting spaciousness and emptiness are bad, wrong, atrocious, repulsive, distasteful. These are the beginning elements to facing what is infinite and eternal. The clinging to any belief whatsoever (including belief in time and the mind) is exactly what moves us away from this infinite and eternal spaciousness. This is not freedom, it’s bondage. The harder we resist by being a Catholic the worse off we are. Being a good Catholic can not replace the genuine self worth of the soul. Noice the willingness to trade for the infinite eternal identity of the soul because we’re proud of who think we are. We don’t want to lose what we’ve invested in our comfortable familiar self.
We really need to examine the attitude of attachment itself. Why are we so attached and why are so attached to always being attached? We need to see every reason and make that the number one goal of our lives at all times. We must know the enemy so deeply that we begin to see it’s not real. We just bought it into its reality because of peer pressure to conform to social roles for example. Remember Jesus asked who can enter a strong mans house and plunder his goods without first tying him up. This refers to the fact we must overpower the personality before we can reveal the treasures of the Kingdom buried deep within. It’s a tall order which often takes a lifetime or two.
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Vico
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In Christianity the person is a composite of the spiritual immortal rational soul that animates their material body and their material body. Although the soul is simple it is not without accidents, which are its faculties, and every experience adds to its accidental form.
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Mintaka
Guest
The Scriptures were written by humans in collaboration with God, Who inspired them. Insofar as they talk about history and the world of matter, of course they talk about time. Insofar as they talk about eternity and spiritual things, of course they disregard time. This is a feature of the Bible which is extremely disconcerting to some! But both kinds of talk are inspired by God, Who knows more about Time than you or I. He created it, so of course He understands it best!
But although God is eternal and dwells outside Time and Space, He created and sustains the material universe and is present in every particle and in every moment. To put it another way, He is not just transcendent; He is also immanent.
This is not a contradiction. God made matter and He likes it. He so loved the world that He became man and lived in it, taking on the form of a human baby and enjoying HIs incarnate life.
God so loved us that He died to make us part of His Body, if we will only accept it.
And yes, the Body, Blood, and Soul of Jesus are part of the Trinity along with His Divinity. This was part of His covenant plan when He became incarnate.
That doesn’t mean that individual Body parts of His are now gods; but yes, as the Body of Christ we live within Him within the Trinity. Which is really astonishing, and will only be fully realized in eternal life.
But although God is eternal and dwells outside Time and Space, He created and sustains the material universe and is present in every particle and in every moment. To put it another way, He is not just transcendent; He is also immanent.
This is not a contradiction. God made matter and He likes it. He so loved the world that He became man and lived in it, taking on the form of a human baby and enjoying HIs incarnate life.
God so loved us that He died to make us part of His Body, if we will only accept it.
And yes, the Body, Blood, and Soul of Jesus are part of the Trinity along with His Divinity. This was part of His covenant plan when He became incarnate.
That doesn’t mean that individual Body parts of His are now gods; but yes, as the Body of Christ we live within Him within the Trinity. Which is really astonishing, and will only be fully realized in eternal life.
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JohnDom
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Yes the scriptures are God-inspired but the interpretation of the scriptures is not. One can take them literally or one can realize there’s a higher meaning. For instance, John 3:16 can be taken to mean that God have us the soul in order for us to know and be one with him. It’s symbolic of the infinite eternal part of us. Without this people will remain confused and without genuine unconditional love and self worth. Most people feel these things must be acquired but the underlying belief is that we are apart from love and self worth. People tend to think salvation is outside them but the soul is salvation in itself. It’s a nasty trick of the personality. When identified with it we are forever in a state of duality. Seems innocent but it creates the illusion of separation and division. God and the soul are a miracle of Oneness.
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JohnDom
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The biggest accident is that we are often the ones judging the soul as something bad, wrong, sinful, no good. Remember the lesson of the Garden of Eden is that judgment is the downfall of mankind. We don’t know when to stop. We judge ourselves to the point where we feel distant and apart from God’s sacredness. Yet God is infinite so how could we ever be apart from what’s infinite except in our own minds? It’s not possible. It’s a delusion.
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Vico
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I never heard of judging the soul as something bad in Christianity, but there is the idea that the individuality is ignorance in some Indian philosophies. The Catechism has insight into this:
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JohnDom
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Notice how we are taught that we as humans are sinful. That is a fundamental teaching of Christianity IMO. That’s why Jesus died on the cross, no? To take away our sins. That we are sinful is a judgment is it not? Yet who are we to judge God’s creation? The Bible says he made everything and it was good. Can something bad come from that which is good? Can something bad come from God? If we buy into it then we don’t really know God. What we know is the personality and it’s judgments.
Well in a way everything is God, or at least a part of Him. God is infinite. There isn’t the tiniest fraction or particle of dust that He does not penetrate and occupy. The limits of the personality block us from knowing, feeling and experiencing this truth. Thank God for the soul because without it we wouldn’t know Him. The soul is us. The true us vs the personality which is the false us. Remember that God created us in his image: infinite and eternal. This is a very real thing that we must know, understand, and feel for our well being. We’re not healthy without it.
Well in a way everything is God, or at least a part of Him. God is infinite. There isn’t the tiniest fraction or particle of dust that He does not penetrate and occupy. The limits of the personality block us from knowing, feeling and experiencing this truth. Thank God for the soul because without it we wouldn’t know Him. The soul is us. The true us vs the personality which is the false us. Remember that God created us in his image: infinite and eternal. This is a very real thing that we must know, understand, and feel for our well being. We’re not healthy without it.
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Vico
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Yes, indirectly. God allowed free will which means that a person can sin mortally, but God also provided grace so that a human can remain free from mortal sin.
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JohnDom
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That is one way to see it but that view is coming from the eyes of the personality. It is trapped in duality because it eyes have not seen nor it’s ears have heard the purity of indivisible Oneness in the Lord. This Oneness is on a unprecedented level, on a much higher order than can be comprehended by the mind. It is purity, impeccability, spotlessness in itself. The clarity is a shimmering radiant brilliance that quickly and easily exposes the personality for the falseness that it is. It can do nothing bow down instantly at the majesty, the holiness and the beauty of the reality of God.
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Vico
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However, man has human nature not divine nature.
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PJM
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FROM Fr. John Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary
SOUL. The spiritual immortal part in human beings that animates their body. Though a substance in itself, the soul is naturally ordained toward a body; separated, it is an “incomplete” substance. The soul has no parts, it is therefore simple, but it is not without accidents. The faculties are its proper accidents. Every experience adds to its accidental form. It is individually created for each person by God and infused into the body at the time of human insemination. It is moreover created in respect to the body it will inform, so that the substance of bodily features and of mental characteristics insofar as they depend on organic functions is safeguarded. As a simple and spiritual substance, the soul cannot die. Yet it is not the total human nature, since a human person is composed of body animated by the soul. In philosophy, animals and plants are also said to have souls, which operate as sensitive and vegetative principles of life. Unlike the human spirit, these souls are perishable. The rational soul contains all the powers of the two other souls and is the origin of the sensitive and vegetative functions in the human being." END QUOTE
The human soul is dignified ex Gen 3:19clusively with a mind, intellect and freewill; thus it is RATIONAL, a characteristic exclusive to humanity alone
Because the body decomposes at death Gen 3:19; it is the human’s SOUL that faces GOD for Judgement and enters into Hell, Purgatory or heaven until the END times when the body, NOW GLORIFIED, is reunited with the soul for eternity.
Final Judgement will be based upon what GOD has made possible for each soul to know, accept and live; NOT on what we freely choose to believe, accept and live.
Pray very much
Patrick
SOUL. The spiritual immortal part in human beings that animates their body. Though a substance in itself, the soul is naturally ordained toward a body; separated, it is an “incomplete” substance. The soul has no parts, it is therefore simple, but it is not without accidents. The faculties are its proper accidents. Every experience adds to its accidental form. It is individually created for each person by God and infused into the body at the time of human insemination. It is moreover created in respect to the body it will inform, so that the substance of bodily features and of mental characteristics insofar as they depend on organic functions is safeguarded. As a simple and spiritual substance, the soul cannot die. Yet it is not the total human nature, since a human person is composed of body animated by the soul. In philosophy, animals and plants are also said to have souls, which operate as sensitive and vegetative principles of life. Unlike the human spirit, these souls are perishable. The rational soul contains all the powers of the two other souls and is the origin of the sensitive and vegetative functions in the human being." END QUOTE
The human soul is dignified ex Gen 3:19clusively with a mind, intellect and freewill; thus it is RATIONAL, a characteristic exclusive to humanity alone
Because the body decomposes at death Gen 3:19; it is the human’s SOUL that faces GOD for Judgement and enters into Hell, Purgatory or heaven until the END times when the body, NOW GLORIFIED, is reunited with the soul for eternity.
Final Judgement will be based upon what GOD has made possible for each soul to know, accept and live; NOT on what we freely choose to believe, accept and live.
Pray very much
Patrick
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JohnDom
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Therein lies the misunderstanding. The soul is the source of our divinity but we’ve misjudged it as sinful. Without the soul we cannot know God while we are alive and we also lack self-worth and try to replace it with belief in Jesus. It doesn’t work. Then we wonder what’s wrong with the world.
The literal version of Jesus is not a replacement for self worth. By definition self worth comes from within. Shall we continue to agree living without self worth? Would we want our children to live without self worth? Why wouldn’t this be a main cause for so much turmoil in the world?
The literal version of Jesus is not a replacement for self worth. By definition self worth comes from within. Shall we continue to agree living without self worth? Would we want our children to live without self worth? Why wouldn’t this be a main cause for so much turmoil in the world?
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JohnDom
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There’s some truth but also some misunderstanding
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Vico
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No, the soul is not our source of divinity, because we are adopted sons and in that way share in the divine life without having divine nature. The source is always God that gives us grace.
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JohnDom
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The unconscious belief is that we are separate and apart from God. Yet God is infinite. God is the miracle of unity and oneness. So if God is infinite then would you mind please explaining how we could be separate from His divinity?
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Vico
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Catholic teaching (dogma) is that God created ex nihilo.
Siegfried, F. (1908). Creation. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04470a.htm
We have these truths (dogma) defined at Vatican I (Pastor Aeternus), note especially 3.
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