The Sovereignty of God – a discussion on a very difficult topic…

[Peter_Plato]

He allows failure becasue he allows free will. However, as stated, allowing something is very, very different from willing it.

Perhaps God doesn’t just allow (as in put up with) free will, but instead positively wills it. The problem is that we do not fully utilize free will, but rather become content with a crippled version of it that creates the problem of evil. In other words, evil, properly defined, is the rendering of our free and God endowed will into something less than what it really is by handicapping and containment. We “cap off” the sovereignty of God with regards to ourselves and become content with a safe and controlled version of it.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Perhaps God doesn’t just allow (as in put up with) free will, but instead positively wills it. The problem is that we do not fully utilize free will, but rather become content with a crippled version of it that creates the problem of evil. In other words, evil, properly defined, is the rendering of our free and God endowed will into something less than what it really is by handicapping and containment. We “cap off” the sovereignty of God with regards to ourselves and become content with a safe and controlled version of it.

Sounds good by my ears.

I was using the term ‘allow’ to illustrate the difference between my perception and hers, I would agree that God wills our free will.

 

[Christian_Unity]

There is only one possibility for reconciling the two. What if God’s sovereignty in man is only possible through man’s free will? And that man is not completely free until and unless God’s will is actualized in the freedom of man? In other words, man can only attain a completely free will and become truly who and what he is meant to be when God’s sovereign will is united with man’s free will in a kind of merging of two freedoms. Man may think freedom can be attained unilaterally, but what if God is the necessary condition for the ontological freedom that is sought by man? Without God, man’s perceived to be “free” will is necessarily encumbered, deficient and not truly free.

Catholics and mainstream modern day Protestants (Arminians) seem to put a great emphasis on the apparent free will on man. However, I do not believe the Scriptures puts any emphasis on the free will of man or the sovereignty of man. I think the Scripture puts heavy and clear emphasis of the complete sovereignty of God. He does whatever pleases Him for His own glory and good pleasure. Your position is popular but it is not grounded in Sacred Scripture when we consider the entire Bible. I don’t think the Sacred Scriptures ever tries to defend the free will of man, rather the Scripture reveals that man’s will is in slavery or in bondage to our fallen sinful nature. Once we are moved from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light, the Apostle Paul teaches that we becomes slaves of righteousness. We are free in Christ.

 

[Christian_Unity]

It is a difficult passage, and I haven’t studied it in detail yet myself. But apparently the early Church Fathers did not read it as Calvin did. We are warned by one of the Apostles, I can’t remember which one off hand, that some of Paul’s letters are quite difficult to understand. Something to keep in mind.

Peter said that about Paul . The Church Fathers read as Augustine did, maybe?

 

[Christian_Unity]

If God is sovereign, why do you think he must control all things. He can do as he likes. If he wants to lets us make choices and direct the formation of our countries and lives then he can do so. It appears he is doing so.

To trust God in all things, we must first understand that He has the power and ability to accomplish all things according to His will. How can we trust God in all things if we do not believe He can accomplish all that He wills? There is application to this madness… mostly growing in faith and trust in God. We know faith pleases God, right?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Catholics and mainstream modern day Protestants (Arminians) seem to put a great emphasis on the apparent free will on man. However, I do not believe the Scriptures puts any emphasis on the free will of man or the sovereignty of man. I think the Scripture puts heavy and clear emphasis of the complete sovereignty of God. He does whatever pleases Him for His own glory and good pleasure. Your position is popular but it is not grounded in Sacred Scripture when we consider the entire Bible. I don’t think the Sacred Scriptures ever tries to defend the free will of man, rather the Scripture reveals that man’s will is in slavery or in bondage to our fallen sinful nature. Once we are moved from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light, the Apostle Paul teaches that we becomes slaves of righteousness. We are free in Christ.

But throughout the entire Bible, reference is made to people’s choices, and the affects they have. Choice only exists because of free will… if there were no free will, there would be no choice. Since the Bible, which you obviously take quite literally, has hundreds of instances of people making choices and suffering the consequences of those choices, then one can concluded that free will not only exists, but also that is incredibly important.

I would agree that free will is only fully exercised when we align it with God’s will, but a bad choice is still a choice, and a result of our free will. If a man is slave to his sin, he still chooses (baring certain cases of addiction / mental illness) to partake of that sin; however flawed his use of it may be, that is still free will.

 

[Christian_Unity]

But throughout the entire Bible, reference is made to people’s choices, and the affects they have. Choice only exists because of free will… if there were no free will, there would be no choice. Since the Bible, which you obviously take quite literally, has hundreds of instances of people making choices and suffering the consequences of those choices, then one can concluded that free will not only exists, but also that is incredibly important.

In the testimony of Sacred Scriptures, God changes the hearts and minds of men and women to conform to His will. Our wills are not completely free if God in fact changes the hearts and minds of men according to His purpose and will. Do you agree what that?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

In the testimony of Sacred Scriptures, God changes the hearts and minds of men and women to conform to His will. Do you agree what that?

No, I don’t. God presents himself to people, and makes it easy for them to accept him, but he does not directly go “Hey you, you believe it me now and you have no choice in the matter.”

Once a person opens themselves up to him, then naturally they would conform to His will, but it is not a forced conversion.

 

[Christian_Unity]

No, I don’t. God presents himself to people, and makes it easy for them to accept them, but he does not directly go “Hey you, you believe it me now and you have no choice in the matter.”

Once a person opens themselves up to him, then naturally they would conform to His will, but it is not a forced conversion.

The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing;
he frustrates the plans of the peoples.
The counsel of the LORD stands forever,
the plans of his heart to all generations.
Psalm 33:10-11

all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What have you done?”
Daniel 4:35

He covers the heavens with clouds;
he prepares rain for the earth;
he makes grass grow on the hills.
He gives to the beasts their food,
and to the young ravens that cry.
Psalm 147:8-9

The mind of man plans his way,
But the LORD directs his steps.
Proverbs 16:9

Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass,
Unless the Lord has commanded it?
Lamentations 3:37

Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.”
James 4:15

 

[ProdglArchitect]

The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing;
he frustrates the plans of the peoples.
The counsel of the LORD stands forever,
the plans of his heart to all generations.
Psalm 33:10-11

all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What have you done?”
Daniel 4:35

He covers the heavens with clouds;
he prepares rain for the earth;
he makes grass grow on the hills.
He gives to the beasts their food,
and to the young ravens that cry.
Psalm 147:8-9

The mind of man plans his way,
But the LORD directs his steps.
Proverbs 16:9

Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass,
Unless the Lord has commanded it?
Lamentations 3:37

Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.”
James 4:15

I’ve already given answers to all of these, did you miss that post?

 

[mercytruth]

Does God grant grace which enables us to be humble? Or do we generate our own humility by our own will power apart from the grace of God? If we generate our own humility, don’t we become prideful in our own ability to be humble? What is our source of humility is it from us or from God?

But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” – James 4:6

Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” 1 Peter 5:5

No, God does not grant grace to become humble. In the context of the scripture, it is pride that God resists, it would be foolish to say that God gives grace to the proud in order to become humble. It conflicts with the whole intent of the scripture verse, and it gives fodder to Satan who fell through pride.

Jesus himself was humble before God, and he says, "Learn of me, for I am meek and lowly of heart, and you shall find rest unto your souls"

God’s peace be with you

micah

 

[Christian_Unity]

How can our wills as Christians be free if the Holy Spirit is interceding for us according to the will of God, and God causes all things to work together for good, and Jesus is also interceding for us? Thank God our wills are not really free, as God intervenes on our behalf for His good pleasure and our good!

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?

 

[Peter_Plato]

In the testimony of Sacred Scriptures, God changes the hearts and minds of men and women to conform to His will. Our wills are not completely free if God in fact changes the hearts and minds of men according to His purpose and will. Do you agree what that?

What about: "Our wills are not completely free until God, in fact changes the hearts and minds of men according to the “freedom” and purpose of his will!"?

The point being that our wills are not truly and finally free until they conform to his truly and completely free will. That God’s freedom is our freedom and destiny. Freedom from sin is exactly the point. Paul’s point about being slaves of Christ can be taken “tongue in cheek” as meaning, in effect, that we become slaves to freedom from all that enslaves us.

I believe this was, in fact, St. Augustine’s position in On Grace and Free Will.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

How can our wills as Christians be free if the Holy Spirit is interceding for us according to the will of God, and God causes all things to work together for good, and Jesus is also interceding for us? Thank God our wills are not really free, as God intervenes on our behalf for His good pleasure and our good!

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?

… I don’t see what half of that post had to do with the topic… either way. The Holy Spirit seeks to guide us, it influences us, whispers in our ears as it were; it is still up to us to make the choice to heed it. We needed Christ’s sacrifice specifically because we DO have free will, which we often exercise poorly. Just because someone intervenes for us doesn’t negate our free will. Our free will is the reason he NEEDS to intervene…

 

[Peter_Plato]

Christian Unity,

I added this to a previous post (55) as a second edit and you may have missed it:

By the way, Exodus is clearly the story of God extracting the Israelites from slavery in Egypt. The reason they spent 42 or so years in the wilderness was to “free” them from what enslaved their hearts to the “fleshpots” of Egypt. It wasn’t political slavery that concerned God, it was slavery of the will. Free will was precisely the issue at stake.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I am not speaking of the sovereignty of man as an isolated idea. The sovereignty of man is nothing except the actualization of the sovereignty of God in our wills. Now since God is absolutely sovereign, then he can only be absolutely sovereign when our wills are completely free to be in harmony and alignment with his complete freedom (sovereignty). If our wills are not free, i.e., enslaved to sin, then we cannot be in a position to carry out the will of God because of impediments that restrict the possibility.

Our wills were onced enslaved to sin prior to being united to Christ by faith. Since we are now united to Christ, we are no longer enslaved to our old fallen sinful nature. We have a new nature in which we can please God in the power of the Spirit. See Romans chapter 8.

 

[Christian_Unity]

… I don’t see what half of that post had to do with the topic… either way. The Holy Spirit seeks to guide us, it influences us, whispers in our ears as it were; it is still up to us to make the choice to heed it. We needed Christ’s sacrifice specifically because we DO have free will, which we often exercise poorly. Just because someone intervenes for us doesn’t negate our free will. Our free will is the reason he NEEDS to intervene…

If God intervenes on our behalf, then our wills are not free from supernatural influences in our lives. What does God do to His adopted children when we stray from Him? See Hebrews 12 on how God intervenes in our lives when we stray.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Our wills were onced enslaved to sin prior to being united to Christ by faith. Since we are now united to Christ, we are no longer enslaved to our old fallen sinful nature. We have a new nature in which we can please God in the power of the Spirit. See Romans chapter 8.

And that new nature is not one of “slavery.” God did not free humanity from sin in order that we become his “slaves.” It is the idea of slavery itself that is contrary to God’s (and our) nature. It is so that his freedom can become realized in our wills to make them free. It is a relationship of being free from whatever is a limitation in order to be free to love. It is not like we were taken from slavery to Pharaoh and building his pyramids, so that now we are slaves to God in order to build his. This is God making us free to love and serve him because he is Goodness itself, Love itself and Being itself. It is freedom so that we can be good, be love and be who we are meant to be, that God may be in us.

 

[Peter_Plato]

If God intervenes on our behalf, then our wills are not free from supernatural influences in our lives. What does God do to His adopted children when we stray from Him? See Hebrews 12 on how God intervenes in our lives when we stray.

The reason God has to resort to intervening in “our lives” is because we prevent him from intervening in and through the freedom of our wills.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

The reason God has to resort to intervening in “our lives” is because we prevent him from intervening in and through the freedom of our wills.

This is basically how I would respond as well, just much more succinct.