The Sovereignty of God – a discussion on a very difficult topic…

[guanophore]

Don’t you think Scripture testifies that everyone was damned and heading to eternal destruction as soon as Adam disobeyed God? Again, if we want a scapegoat for the predicament of mankind in his rebellion against God, blame it on Adam. Actually, the Apostle Paul blames it on Eve. Sorry sisters in Christ… it was Eve’s fault and not Adam. God did not will that all will be saved because we know through the Scriptures that the road is narrow and a few find it which leads to eternal life.

You are imposing your distinctive theological assumptions onto the Scripture.

The fact that the road is narrow and few will find it does NOT equate to “God’s will that not all be saved”. Such a statement is directly contradictory with the Scripture.

God, in His sovereigty, has decreed that only those who seek shall find. He gives sufficient grace to all to hear and obey His Word. Those who hear Him, and refuse to place their faith in Him because they love their sin, and they are in rebellion, will not find the narrow road, nor will they encounter even more grace to walk upon it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Christian Unity,

Prayer is one way we commune with God, which purpose is not to conform God to our desires, but our desires to God. It is a child’s prayer that says, “God make this happen because this is what I want to happen.”…and then upset because God didn’t do what I wanted.

Mature faith is dependent on God, and prayer reflects this maturity. We all are, every one us, at time the person who prays with a mature faith, and the person who prays with the childish faith.

Other than that. The universe is unfolding as God intends it, where sin seems to prevail, God’s love prevails. From our vantage point, of created and not Creator, we can place our faith and trust in God, and seek to align our will to His. This is true discipleship.

Hope that helps.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Christian Unity
Blame everything on Adam. Those who end up in Hell receive what they deserve which is divine justice for their personal rebellion against God and the sin of Adam. I agree God can save none, some, or all… according to His sovereign will, His own glory, and His own divine purpose. God is not compelled or obligated to save any, because we are all born in rebellion against Him and deserve the eternal wrath of God for our personal rebellion against Him. I think mercy and grace is more about receving what we do not deserve. Do you seem to agree or disagree?

But Christ is the new Adam who has triumphed over sin and death. Why would he not want everyone to be saved?

=asd72;10094225]But Christ is the new Adam who has triumphed over sin and death. Why would he not want everyone to be saved?

I’m responding to both comments

First of all God “cannot*” save everyone; as in grant salvation to “all.”

WHY? Because He has committed Himself as our Perfect God not too. At least in a direct manor of commandinf such an action.

Because in all of Creation, man alone can choose to love or hate God; and man alone emulates God Himself [Gen. 1:26-27]. How?

Like our God we alone in all of Creation have a mind, intellect and freewill [all Spiritual Things like God Himself] John 4:23 -24 “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him.God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth”.

These are permnately attached to our Souls; and are what either enjoy the fruits of our labor [works on earth] or suffer eternal damnation.

It is precisely why God created us "like himself; [to a far lesser degree] that prohibits Him form making Predestination calls. Predestination denies God’s right to be “perfect” which requires impartiality, justice and fairness; and at the same time denies man his created “rights” to self determanation of salvation.

Rom. 2:6 “Who will render to every man according to his works.”

Rev. 22:12 “Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to his works”

Rev. 20:12 “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Mt. 15:16 “So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

God can do “any 'Good Thing.” Because He would have to chage both His mind and our judgments; salvation for “all” simply is not a possibility:

Both post were very well done

God Bless,
pat/PJM

 

[mercytruth]

Oh I disagree with your assertion! Just the first part, though. I think that BECAUSE God is sovereign over all His creation, he created man in His own image and likeness, which includes the ability to choose. He then set before His creation, made in His image, the alternatives, and He, in His sovereignty, allows the consequences of each choice./QUOTE

Agreed. God allows the consequences of our choices, choices which He does not directly control. Thank you for the clarifications.

God’s peace be with you

micah

 

[guanophore]

No, God does not grant grace to become humble. In the context of the scripture, it is pride that God resists, it would be foolish to say that God gives grace to the proud in order to become humble. It conflicts with the whole intent of the scripture verse, and it gives fodder to Satan who fell through pride.

Jesus himself was humble before God, and he says, "Learn of me, for I am meek and lowly of heart, and you shall find rest unto your souls"

God’s peace be with you

micah

I disagree. I think that God gives sufficient grace to every human being to respond to HIs call to humble themselves, repent and turn to Him. Those who respond to this prevenient grace, he gives more grace, so that the soul can continually humble themselves as they walk with Him.

I do agree that one who persists in pride does not benefit from the grace that is poured out, but it was while we were yet sinners that Christ died for us. He poured out His grace on the humble and the proud alike. The humble accept His grace, knowing that they need it, and the proud imagine that they do not, and reject it.

 

[mercytruth]

I disagree. I think that God gives sufficient grace to every human being to respond to HIs call to humble themselves, repent and turn to Him. Those who respond to this prevenient grace, he gives more grace, so that the soul can continually humble themselves as they walk with Him.

I do agree that one who persists in pride does not benefit from the grace that is poured out, but it was while we were yet sinners that Christ died for us. He poured out His grace on the humble and the proud alike. The humble accept His grace, knowing that they need it, and the proud imagine that they do not, and reject it.

Would you please explain ‘prevenient grace’? And how it does not conflict with the scripture, “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble”?

Then please cite scripture and early church fathers which would support the concept of
‘prevenient grace’.

Thanks, and God’s peace,

micah

 

[guanophore]

How can our wills as Christians be free if the Holy Spirit is interceding for us according to the will of God, and God causes all things to work together for good, and Jesus is also interceding for us? Thank God our wills are not really free, as God intervenes on our behalf for His good pleasure and our good!

Such a statement reflects a warped perception of free will - one perhaps contaminated by the heresies of Calvin’s ideas about total depravity? It is Calvin’s twisting of the meaning of free will that results in thinking that a will that is influenced is no longer free.

Although it is God’s desire that all things work together for our good, many Christians have not yet grasped this valuable spiritual principle,and as such, often fail to expereince the good that God wishes to work. I was listening to a talk show on Immaculate Heard Radio ( I strongly recommend it to you, CU) and one of the callers was trying to make the case for using birth control and allowing abortions. I know that at least 50% of women claiming to be Catholic report using birth control (I think it is higher) and have had or would have an abortion because they believe it is the “woman’s right to choose over her own body”.

The Church teaches that, if a woman becomes pregnant, God will work all things together for her good. Yet apparently the majority of American “Catholics” refuse to live according to this truth. As a result, they fall into sin, and their desire to be “sovereign” over themselves many times results in the death of an innocent human being.

One of my beefs with Calvin is his apparent inability to perceive humanity in relationship with loving God. No parent would say that, because they try to influence the will of their child, and intervene to make their child’s life the best it can be, that they really are not free to choose what they want for themselves.

 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Yes, the Spirit helps us, and intercedes for us, but we are not compelled to obey God, or to follow the leading if the HS. This is why there are so many passages in the NT written to Christians about falling into sin. Calvanists like to pretend that these passages are not addressed to “true Christians” because there are “unbelievers” in the congregation, but the Apostles taught that Christians can, and do, sin. They fall from grace, and are in danger of failing to finish the race, getting cut off, thrown into the fire and burned, etc.

The last part of this passage is often taken out of context to “prove” the Calvanistic concept of perseverance. Where Paul is writing about the saints who have gone on before us in the faith, Calvanists, and those who have inherited the heresies created by him, place a present tense context in this passage, and apply it to those they believe are the “elect” so hapless believers are taught that this “golden chain of salvation” cannot be broken,a nd that onece a person is justified, they will authomatically be “saved”/glorified, no matter what they do.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?

 

[guanophore]

Would you please explain ‘prevenient grace’? And how it does not conflict with the scripture, “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble”?

Then please cite scripture and early church fathers which would support the concept of
‘prevenient grace’.

Thanks, and God’s peace,

micah

I will endeavor to do so. Prevenient comes from the Latin and means “that which comes before.” It is also often called “calling” or “drawing” Grace. It is the grace that God gives to all humanity to draw them unto Himself. God does not command mankind to do that which He is does not equip him to do. If we are called to repentance, then we have sufficient grace to do so.

Acts 17:29-31

29 Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead."

The preaching of the Gospel is accompanied by prevenient grace, so that those who hear it can greet his grace with their faith, and so be saved.

Acts 17:24-28
24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, 28 for

‘In him we live and move and have our being’;

The grace that calls us to search (feel after Him) is prevenient, it comes before we are actually in right relationship with Him.

I have to go to work right now so I can’t delve into the Fathers so perhaps someone else can give us a boost on that part, if not I will look into this when I get home tonight.

The Catholic Encyclopedia has an entry on Grace where it is mentioned just search the page for the paragraph.

 

[fhansen]

I disagree. I think that God gives sufficient grace to every human being to respond to HIs call to humble themselves, repent and turn to Him. Those who respond to this prevenient grace, he gives more grace, so that the soul can continually humble themselves as they walk with Him.

I do agree that one who persists in pride does not benefit from the grace that is poured out, but it was while we were yet sinners that Christ died for us. He poured out His grace on the humble and the proud alike. The humble accept His grace, knowing that they need it, and the proud imagine that they do not, and reject it.

Yes, as in the Parable of the Talents, if we resist the gifts we’re given, even the little we have will be taken away. And, relatively speaking, we’re all too proud to begin with. OTOH if we “invest” the grace given we grow in the virtues, humility included. Anyway, it’s not either/or, all grace (God) or all us, it’s both/and, a synergistic effort.

 

[mercytruth]

Would you please explain ‘prevenient grace’? And how it does not conflict with the scripture, “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble”?

Then please cite scripture and early church fathers which would support the concept of
‘prevenient grace’.

Thanks, and God’s peace,

micah

Answering my own question from wikipedia:

Prevenient grace is a Christian theological concept rooted in Augustinian theology.[1] It is divine grace that precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done. As humans are corrupted by the effects of sin, prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer.

Our free will is always engaged to choose the salvation of God in Jesus Christ, as the apostle Paul makes it very clear from this pre-salvific scripture of his own condition:

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent to the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.

The underlined portion of this scripture, is the condition of Paul prior to the irresistable grace which enterred his soul at his acceptance of the salvation in Jesus Christ.

In other words, the will to choose good is present in all of us, but the grace to perform that which is good is not. It requires our will to choose to humble ourselves in order to receive this free gift of salvation. When we choose to humble ourselves, then God gives us the grace. If we choose not to humble ourselves to receive this irresistable grace, then God will reject us in our pride.

God’s peace

micah

 

[guanophore]

 Answering my own question from wikipedia:

Although wiki is a great resource to get started with research, it should not be relied upon as a valid reposit of accuracy. It is recommended that one always check the original sources.

The underlined portion of this scripture, is the condition of Paul prior to the irresistable grace which enterred his soul at his acceptance of the salvation in Jesus Christ micah

Have you considered changing your affiliation so that it more accurately reflects your actual beliefs?

 

[fhansen]

In other words, the will to choose good is present in all of us, but the grace to perform that which is good is not. It requires our will to choose to humble ourselves in order to receive this free gift of salvation. When we choose to humble ourselves, then God gives us the grace. If we choose not to humble ourselves to receive this irresistable grace, then God will reject us in our pride.

God’s peace

micah

But if we need the grace to perform that which is good, then how do we humble ourselves to receive grace? God is always the initiator of justification/salvation. Otherwise He’s not the Savior and we end up with Semi-Pelagianism. But it’s still never an either/or situation. This from the Catechism should shed some light on God’s sovereignty vs mans freedom:

**1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42
**

 

[Peter_Plato]

Apologies for intruding, this is for my own clarity, as well,

In other words, the will to choose good is present in all of us, but the grace to perform that which is good is not.

I think, just the opposite, the grace is present but the will to take advantage of the grace is not.

It requires our will to choose to humble ourselves in order to receive this free gift of salvation. When we choose to humble ourselves, then God gives us the grace. If we choose not to humble ourselves to receive this irresistable grace, then God will reject us in our pride.

This is generally correct, as far as I can tell, with a bit of tweaking.
We could not will to humble ourselves without the grace to do so. When we choose to humble ourselves it is the grace, already made available to us that has made efficacious our will do so. Choice is ours but the “power” moving it is God’s.

 

[guanophore]

 Apologies for intruding, this is for my own clarity, as well,

It is a public thread. Everyone is welcome to participate.

I think, just the opposite, the grace is present but the will to take advantage of the grace is not.

Human will toward the good has been wounded by original sin, so that we have an inclination away from God (concupiscence) and neither will or do His perfect will for us. The HS draws us to Him, so that we can enter a right relationship with Him, in which our will and our desires become one with His.

Phil 2:12-13

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

It is the HS at work within us that enables us to will and to do good.

This is generally correct, as far as I can tell, with a bit of tweaking.
We could not will to humble ourselves without the grace to do so. When we choose to humble ourselves it is the grace, already made available to us that has made efficacious our will do so. Choice is ours but the “power” moving it is God’s.

Without His grace at work within us, we are nothing.

Rom 7:18-20
18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.

And we are able to resist that grace, and therefore fail to enter the heavely inheritance that has been kept imperishable for us.

 

[Radyj]

In other words, the will to choose good is present in all of us, but the grace to perform that which is good is not. It requires our will to choose to humble ourselves in order to receive this free gift of salvation. When we choose to humble ourselves, then God gives us the grace. If we choose not to humble ourselves to receive this irresistable grace, then God will reject us in our pride.

God’s peace

micah

I think you have the idea a little backwards, the grace to do God’s will is present, our will is not. Thus it is prevenient grace, not prevenient will. [BIBLEDRB]Rev 3:20[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[rinnie]

No, God does not grant grace to become humble. In the context of the scripture, it is pride that God resists, it would be foolish to say that God gives grace to the proud in order to become humble. It conflicts with the whole intent of the scripture verse, and it gives fodder to Satan who fell through pride.

Jesus himself was humble before God, and he says, "Learn of me, for I am meek and lowly of heart, and you shall find rest unto your souls"

God’s peace be with you

micah

I am either misunderstanding what you are trying to say or I am in total disagreement with you on this one.

I agree that it is by the grace of God that we are humbled. And God does humble us.

I believe that God does deal with the proud when he humbles them, pretty much life going great and then hard times is that big burst of humble.

Sometimes it takes that person with that pride to be knocked down a few pegs, to build that person back up and give them understanding.

Ironically we had that sermon the other day in Church.

Father said this guy had a violin, it was the most expensive and best sounding violin in the world.

As the guy stepped out on stage he fell and it shattered into a million pieces. It was ruined forever.

Some guy came and put it together for him, knowing what it meant to him.

It is said when he played it, it sounded ever better then when it was once in perfect shape.

That is what God does to us at times. He breaks us down and then builds us up better then the original person. Thats how he humbles us.

And do you not agree it is the proud that need to be humbled by God?

 

[mercytruth]

But if we need the grace to perform that which is good, then how do we humble ourselves to receive grace? God is always the initiator of justification/salvation. Otherwise He’s not the Savior and we end up with Semi-Pelagianism. But it’s still never an either/or situation. This from the Catechism should shed some light on God’s sovereignty vs mans freedom:

**1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42
**

If one were to read the stories of the OT and the gospels stories, one will see that those who humble themselves before God, are the ones who are hearkened by God. In almost all cases, affliction, oppression, disease, or the awareness of one’s own sins are what causes individuals to humble themselves before God in asking either for His deliverance, His healing, or His forgiveness.

We must initiate, this humbling of our souls before God, but God allows the trials and circumstances of our lives, or the consequences of our sins to bring us to that place of calling upon the name of the Lord. This turning to the Lord is from the awareness of our need for God. Please show me in scripture where it is grace that turns a person’s heart, or soul to God and I will be persuaded. Suffering turns our hearts, our souls to God.

May God’s peace be with you

micah

 

[mercytruth]

I think you have the idea a little backwards, the grace to do God’s will is present, our will is not. Thus it is prevenient grace, not prevenient will. [BIBLEDRB]Rev 3:20[/BIBLEDRB]

There is no such thing as prevenient grace in the scriptures, if there is please show me.
The soul that God originally grants to each of us at conception or sometime thereafter, is as holy as the souls that God originally gave to Adam and Eve. Please show me in scripture the contrary.

God’s peace be with you also

micah

 

[mercytruth]

I am either misunderstanding what you are trying to say or I am in total disagreement with you on this one.

I agree that it is by the grace of God that we are humbled. And God does humble us.

I believe that God does deal with the proud when he humbles them, pretty much life going great and then hard times is that big burst of humble.

Sometimes it takes that person with that pride to be knocked down a few pegs, to build that person back up and give them understanding.

Ironically we had that sermon the other day in Church.

Father said this guy had a violin, it was the most expensive and best sounding violin in the world.

As the guy stepped out on stage he fell and it shattered into a million pieces. It was ruined forever.

Some guy came and put it together for him, knowing what it meant to him.

It is said when he played it, it sounded ever better then when it was once in perfect shape.

That is what God does to us at times. He breaks us down and then builds us up better then the original person. Thats how he humbles us.

And do you not agree it is the proud that need to be humbled by God?

Oh yes, the scriptures are replete with God humbling the proud through suffering, but even with suffering there are those who remain proud who will not humbly turn to God. Most of us who are humble enough to turn to God, are those of us who are experiencing trials, sufferings or the heavy weight of our sins. I do not call this the grace of God, I call this the chastisement of the Lord our God.

Grace sanctifies.

God’ peace be with you

micah

 

[mercytruth]

Apologies for intruding, this is for my own clarity, as well,



I think, just the opposite, the grace is present but the will to take advantage of the grace is not.

This is generally correct, as far as I can tell, with a bit of tweaking.
We could not will to humble ourselves without the grace to do so. When we choose to humble ourselves it is the grace, already made available to us that has made efficacious our will do so. Choice is ours but the “power” moving it is God’s.

The human will even in the midst of grace stands in the way of God’s will everyday our lives.

The greatest challenge that we face in being obedient to God’s will is that of our own will standing in the way.

St. John of the Cross makes this very clear. Unless we are willing to deny ourselves every day, unless we are willing to carry our cross every day, unless we are willing to lose our soul, our own life for Jesus we will not enter the kingdom of God.

This takes the voluntary choice of humbling our own will to the will of God everyday of our lives. God does not force us, but we can humbling ask for His grace to submit our wills each day to the will of God and we will grant us the grace, but we have to ask Him everyday. This is why the Lord’s prayer was said three times a day in the early church.

God’s peace be with you

micah