The Sovereignty of God – a discussion on a very difficult topic…

[hazcompat]

John 6:44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day.

John 15:5I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.

All is grace.

Peace

 

[PJM]

=ProdglArchitect;10094504]But throughout the entire Bible, reference is made to people’s choices, and the affects they have. Choice only exists because of free will… if there were no free will, there would be no choice. Since the Bible, which you obviously take quite literally, has hundreds of instances of people making choices and suffering the consequences of those choices, then one can concluded that free will not only exists, but also that is incredibly important.

I would agree that free will is only fully exercised when we align it with God’s will, but a bad choice is still a choice, and a result of our free will. If a man is slave to his sin, he still chooses (baring certain cases of addiction / mental illness) to partake of that sin; however flawed his use of it may be, that is still free will.

Excellect reply!

Thank you!

 

[rinnie]

Oh yes, the scriptures are replete with God humbling the proud through suffering, but even with suffering there are those who remain proud who will not humbly turn to God. Most of us who are humble enough to turn to God, are those of us who are experiencing trials, sufferings or the heavy weight of our sins. I do not call this the grace of God, I call this the chastisement of the Lord our God.

Grace sanctifies.

God’ peace be with you

micah

Then we are indeed in disagreement. Let me show you why.

When we are humbled it is not by our own power that this happens. All things good come from God not ourself. You seem to be implying this is all done without the grace of God and all our our part.

If we are humble it is for sure a grace given to us from God. Rather we accept this chastisement as you call it and accept the gift of it which makes us humble, it is still a result of the great grace of God.

If we reject this chastisement and refuse to humble ourself from Christ, we just rejected the grace we were given. But if we accept it, we accept the grace that was given.

So I strongly disagree with you.

 

[rinnie]

Oh yes, the scriptures are replete with God humbling the proud through suffering, but even with suffering there are those who remain proud who will not humbly turn to God. Most of us who are humble enough to turn to God, are those of us who are experiencing trials, sufferings or the heavy weight of our sins. I do not call this the grace of God, I call this the chastisement of the Lord our God.

Grace sanctifies.

God’ peace be with you

micah

To sum it up easier, those who reject his grace and refuse to be humbled have rejected the grace of God.

 

[hazcompat]

Abandonment to Divine Providence Jean-Pierre de Caussade
SECTION IV.—In what Perfection Consists.

Perfection consists in doing the will of God, not in understanding His designs. The designs of God, the good pleasure of God, the will of God, the operation of God and the gift of His grace are all one and the same thing in the spiritual life. It is God working in the soul to make it like unto Himself. Perfection is neither more nor less than the faithful co-operation of the soul with this work of God, and is begun, grows, and is consummated in the soul unperceived and in secret.

peace

 

[mercytruth]

Then we are indeed in disagreement. Let me show you why.

When we are humbled it is not by our own power that this happens. All things good come from God not ourself. You seem to be implying this is all done without the grace of God and all our our part.

If we are humble it is for sure a grace given to us from God. Rather we accept this chastisement as you call it and accept the gift of it which makes us humble, it is still a result of the great grace of God.

If we reject this chastisement and refuse to humble ourself from Christ, we just rejected the grace we were given. But if we accept it, we accept the grace that was given.

So I strongly disagree with you.

If you want to call the chastisement of God that leads to repentance as ‘grace’, I am not going to argue with you.

I want to make it clear that I see a difference between the initial humbling of oneself, and the gift of humility.

The initial humbling of one’s soul which turns itself to God and away from self, and sin is called repentance.

This initial turning of one’s soul to God leads ultimately to the waters of baptism and the confirmation of the Holy Spirit. It is through these sacraments that we are gifted with the graces to continue in humility, but even then, nothing is guaranteed.

I do not believe in the doctrine of ‘once saved, always save’. It takes the active cooperation one’s own will in submitting to the will of God if we are to continue in the way of salvation.

The apostle Paul admonishes us 'not to grieve the Holy Spirit, ‘not to quench the Holy Spirit’, and ‘not to resist the Holy Spirit,’. This tells me, that we must daily humble our souls before God to avoid quenching, resisting and grieving the Holy Spirit.

So, if you want to call chastisement a ‘grace’, I will not pursue the definition,
it does not benefit either one of us to do so.

God’s peace be with you

micah

 

[mercytruth]

Abandonment to Divine Providence Jean-Pierre de Caussade
SECTION IV.—In what Perfection Consists.

Perfection consists in doing the will of God, not in understanding His designs. The designs of God, the good pleasure of God, the will of God, the operation of God and the gift of His grace are all one and the same thing in the spiritual life. It is God working in the soul to make it like unto Himself. Perfection is neither more nor less than the faithful co-operation of the soul with this work of God, and is begun, grows, and is consummated in the soul unperceived and in secret.

peace

If I had the writings of St.John of the Cross, I would quote his understanding. Paraphrasing St. John of the Cross, there is passive dark night and an active dark night which leads to perfection, or union with God. According to St. John of the Cross we are passively purged from sins of our exterior senses. We must actively choose to lose our lives (souls) for the sake of Jesus Christ in order to be purged of our ‘spiritual sweet tooth’.

In other words, we must experience death of our exterior and of our interior, because we can not be greater than the Master, and the Master suffered from both.

thanks for the quotation, maybe I will look up this author sometime

God’s peace be with you

 

[hazcompat]

INTO this dark night souls begin to enter when God draws them forth from the
state of beginners—which is the state of those that meditate on the spiritual road—
and begins to set them in the state of progressives—which is that of those who are
already contemplatives—to the end that, after passing through it, they may arrive
at the state of the perfect, which is that of the Divine union of the soul with God.
Wherefore, to the end that we may the better understand and explain what night is
this through which the soul passes, and for what cause God sets it therein, it will be
well here to touch first of all upon certain characteristics of beginners (which,
although we treat them with all possible brevity, will not fail to be of service
likewise to the beginners themselves), in order that, realizing the weakness of the
state wherein they are, they may take courage, and may desire that God will bring
them into this night, wherein the soul is strengthened and confirmed in the virtues,
and made ready for the inestimable delights of the love of God. And, although we
may tarry here for a time, it will not be for longer than is necessary, so that we may
go on to speak at once of this dark night.
2. It must be known, then, that the soul, after it has been definitely converted
to the service of God, is, as a rule, spiritually nurtured and caressed by God, even as
is the tender child by its loving mother, who warms it with the heat of her bosom
and nurtures it with sweet milk and soft and pleasant food, and carries it and
caresses it in her arms; but, as the child grows bigger, the mother gradually ceases
caressing it, and, hiding her tender love, puts bitter aloes upon her sweet breast,
sets down the child from her arms and makes it walk upon its feet, so that it may
lose the habits of a child and betake itself to more important and substantial
occupations. The loving mother is like the grace of God, for, as soon as the soul is regenerated by its new warmth and fervour for the service of God, He treats it in
the same way; He makes it to find spiritual milk, sweet and delectable, in all the
things of God, without any labour of its own, and also great pleasure in spiritual
exercises, for here God is giving to it the breast of His tender love, even as to a
tender child.
DARK NIGHT
OF THE SOUL
by
Saint John of the Cross
DOCTOR OF THE CHURCH
THIRD REVISED EDITION

Peace

 

[mercytruth]

Few people while on earth, arrive at this perfection, or Divine union with God which occurs during the ‘second night’.

**3. And this first night pertains to beginners, occurring at the time when God begins to bring them into the state of contemplation; in this night the spirit likewise has a part, as we shall say in due course. And the second night, or purification, pertains to those who are already proficient, occurring at the time when God desires to bring them to the state of union with God. And this latter night is a more obscure and dark and terrible purgation, as we shall say afterwards. **

The Ascent of Mt.Carmel, Book I, chapter 3. St. John of the Cross

God’s peace be with you

micah

 

[hazcompat]

Few people while on earth, arrive at this perfection, or Divine union with God which occurs during the ‘second night’.

3. And this first night pertains to beginners, occurring at the time when God begins to bring them into the state of contemplation; in this night the spirit likewise has a part, as we shall say in due course. And the second night, or purification, pertains to those who are already proficient, occurring at the time when God desires to bring them to the state of union with God. And this latter night is a more obscure and dark and terrible purgation, as we shall say afterwards.

The Ascent of Mt.Carmel, Book I, chapter 3. St. John of the Cross

God’s peace be with you

micah

yes, and in all things God is the protaganist. It is all grace. Humility is the fruit of the awareness of the absolute perfection of God in contrast to the abject poverty of the self. If you abandon yourself He will bring you to the perfect Divine Union. BTW the word terrible is used differently in the great saint’s time.

peace

 

[mercytruth]

yes, and in all things God is the protaganist. It is all grace. Humility is the fruit of the awareness of the absolute perfection of God in contrast to the abject poverty of the self. If you abandon yourself He will bring you to the perfect Divine Union. BTW the word terrible is used differently in the great saint’s time.

peace

If one reads what St. John of the Cross writes concerning the dark night of the spirit, he describes it as living through purgatory on earth. St. Paul says that we are ‘to work out our salvation with trembling and fear’.

. Everyone of us is given the choice of denying ourselves, and taking up our cross daily. It is is a conscious decision to humble our will to the will of God. God will not force us to humble our wills to His own will.

This seems to me to represent the meaning of St. Paul in when he says that we are to ‘work out our salvation in trembling and fear.’ We ‘must labor to enter into His rest’. Our labor is to humble our will in obedience to His own will, otherwise I doubt whether we will enter into His will, or into His rest.

It seems to me, that unless we labor to submit our wills to God’s will, we will be fighting against the will of God, though we do not consciously know it to be as such.

God’s peace be with you

micah

 

[guanophore]

If one were to read the stories of the OT and the gospels stories, one will see that those who humble themselves before God, are the ones who are hearkened by God. In almost all cases, affliction, oppression, disease, or the awareness of one’s own sins are what causes individuals to humble themselves before God in asking either for His deliverance, His healing, or His forgiveness.

We must initiate, this humbling of our souls before God, but God allows the trials and circumstances of our lives, or the consequences of our sins to bring us to that place of calling upon the name of the Lord. This turning to the Lord is from the awareness of our need for God. Please show me in scripture where it is grace that turns a person’s heart, or soul to God and I will be persuaded. Suffering turns our hearts, our souls to God.

May God’s peace be with you

micah

You are right that suffering can turn our hearts and souls to God, but there are even more people who are suffering that refuse to turn toward God, or even blame Him for their suffering. The difference is that only those who have receive His grace are able to “initiate” the humbling of the soul. This is because our hearts are disinclined to do so, and we are unable to turn to Him without His grace. This concept is clarified in the Joint Declaration

The wounding from original sin prevents us from initiating any movement toward God apart from His grace.

Rom 8:6-8
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, indeed it cannot; 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Being in the flesh is the carnal or natural state of man apart from God’s grace. In that state, we can do nothing to please God. It is not until faith is kindled in the human heart by prevenient grace that we can seek after Him and find Him.

1 Cor 2:14-16
14 The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.

Before we are infused with God’s grace, we are “unspiritual”, and unable to comprehend or receive the gifts of God. When grace works upon the human heart, and a person makes the choice to humble themselves, they can then receive the gifts of God, and discern what He is trying to give them through suffering.

 

[guanophore]

There is no such thing as prevenient grace in the scriptures, if there is please show me.
The soul that God originally grants to each of us at conception or sometime thereafter, is as holy as the souls that God originally gave to Adam and Eve. Please show me in scripture the contrary.

God’s peace be with you also

micah

I honestly do not see why you are representing yourself as a Catholic on this board! Please have the intetgrity to identify yourself with accuracy.

Catholics do not embrace the modern heresy that all of God’s word must be found in the Scriptures. Catholics also do not deny the fact of original sin, and how it has wounded mankind. Why would you wish to present yourself as something other than you are?

What good does it do to show you things from Scripture, when you don’t already believe what is written there? It is clear that Adam and Eve, and we as their descendants, suffered the consequences of their disobedience to God.

What kind of “holy soul” do you think they had?

If everyone born now has such a “holy soul” how do you explain the sin that is so active in humanity today?

 

[guanophore]

Oh yes, the scriptures are replete with God humbling the proud through suffering, but even with suffering there are those who remain proud who will not humbly turn to God. Most of us who are humble enough to turn to God, are those of us who are experiencing trials, sufferings or the heavy weight of our sins. I do not call this the grace of God, I call this the chastisement of the Lord our God.

Grace sanctifies.

God’ peace be with you

micah

I think you make a good point. The difference between experiencing pain/suffering as redemptive or not rests in whether a person has received grace. If a person knows they are loved by God, and that they are in a state of growth, they can accept chastizement as part of His love. If they don’t begin in grace, then the suffering is only destructive.

 The human will even in the midst of grace stands in the way of God's will everyday our lives.

The greatest challenge that we face in being obedient to God’s will is that of our own will standing in the way.

The human will has the tendency to stand in the way, but it need not. It is true that self will is the greatest challenge, but God pours out sufficient grace so that we can overcome it, and be obedient to Him.

St. John of the Cross makes this very clear. Unless we are willing to deny ourselves every day, unless we are willing to carry our cross every day, unless we are willing to lose our soul, our own life for Jesus we will not enter the kingdom of God.

This takes the voluntary choice of humbling our own will to the will of God everyday of our lives. God does not force us, but we can humbling ask for His grace to submit our wills each day to the will of God and we will grant us the grace, but we have to ask Him everyday. This is why the Lord’s prayer was said three times a day in the early church.

God’s peace be with you

micah

And that is the crux of this thread. That we believe God’s grace is made available to us, but that we must personally choose to receive it,a nd to work together with that grace as you say, minute by minute, to be conformed to His will.

 

[Anthony_V]

There is no such thing as prevenient grace in the scriptures, if there is please show me.
The soul that God originally grants to each of us at conception or sometime thereafter, is as holy as the souls that God originally gave to Adam and Eve. Please show me in scripture the contrary.

God’s peace be with you also

micah

My friend,
I wish to point out two things to you which is dogma in the Catholic Faith.

The spiritual soul that God infused into Adam and Eve at their first being was not “holy” as you insist. That is Protestant dogma. Adam and Eve were first created as natural creatures, and then elevated to partake in holiness through grace. While Adam and Eve certainly had a natural virtue that was greater than the other animals, their holiness came from the grace of God and not from their nature. While being is, in some respect, a gift from God, there is no such thing as “natural grace”. Holding that view is called Pelagianism.

Second, the spiritual soul is infused at the moment of conception. While St. Thomas Aquinas did not hold it (nor did he hold the Immaculate Conception), he is not the Church’s source of dogma.

Peace to you in Christ our Lord,
Anthony

 

[CopticChristian]

It is a difficult passage, and I haven’t studied it in detail yet myself. But apparently the early Church Fathers did not read it as Calvin did. We are warned by one of the Apostles, I can’t remember which one off hand, that some of Paul’s letters are quite difficult to understand. Something to keep in mind.

Asd,

Yes they did know…and they did not think like Calvin

The early church knew of fatalism from Platonic philosophy, and consistently taught against it. A very clear statement is from an ex-Neoplatonist, Justin Martyr (wrote 135-165 A.D.) in his First Apology ch. XLIII p.177 “But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g. be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate.”

 

[CopticChristian]

OP moved here as he was spinning circles trying to make us Calvinists, so he tries again
by making it seem as if by arguing against his twisted ideas of double predestination we are in fact arguing against the sovereignty of God.

Shall we start with what we know of God from Scripture.

God is Infinite and Eternal
All knowing
Holy
Righteous and Just
Love
True, Truth
All powerful
Immutable
Omnipresent
Sovereign

So yes God is Sovereign, now what does that mean? Well it means just as he is sovereign his is also his other qualities as well, in his sovereignty he could not be unjust, unholy, hateful, false or changing.

How is this a difficult discussion?

Rady,

You got it…Calvinism at its finest…

 

[mercytruth]

I honestly do not see why you are representing yourself as a Catholic on this board! Please have the intetgrity to identify yourself with accuracy.

Catholics do not embrace the modern heresy that all of God’s word must be found in the Scriptures. Catholics also do not deny the fact of original sin, and how it has wounded mankind. Why would you wish to present yourself as something other than you are?

What good does it do to show you things from Scripture, when you don’t already believe what is written there? It is clear that Adam and Eve, and we as their descendants, suffered the consequences of their disobedience to God.

What kind of “holy soul” do you think they had?

If everyone born now has such a “holy soul” how do you explain the sin that is so active in humanity today?

My reply to you and to Anthony V is that a ‘holy soul’ is the wrong choice of words. I should have said a soul without sin. God does not impart a soul within us that is marred with sin. Our souls become marred with sin through the temptations that come through the flesh, the world, and the devil.

This whole subject of ‘original sin’ has been influenced by other doctrines that could be interpreted in other ways. Without getting into those specific doctrines, I decline to say anything further.

I know what the scriptures say about ’ our sinful flesh’ inclination, and I know what the early church fathers said. I know that genetically speaking, we are imperfect natural human beings who are inclined to all sorts of addictions, alcoholism for one, in Native Americans and others just for one example.

Fallen human nature, (not the soul), a fallen world, and fallen angels are the three sources of temptations which lead our soul into sin.

God’s peace be with you

micah

 

[CopticChristian]

My reply to you and to Anthony V is that a ‘holy soul’ is the wrong choice of words. I should have said a soul without sin. God does not impart a soul within us that is marred with sin. Our souls become marred with sin through the temptations that come through the flesh, the world, and the devil.

This whole subject of ‘original sin’ has been influenced by other doctrines that could be interpreted in other ways. Without getting into those specific doctrines, I decline to say anything further.

I know what the scriptures say about ’ our sinful flesh’ inclination, and I know what the early church fathers said. I know that genetically speaking, we are imperfect natural human beings who are inclined to all sorts of addictions, alcoholism for one, in Native Americans and others just for one example.

Fallen human nature, (not the soul), a fallen world, and fallen angels are the three sources of temptations which lead our soul into sin.

God’s peace be with you

micah

Micah,

Here are two videos on youtube and they abound on refuting Calvinism…CU should go there and then come back…

youtube.com/watch?v=3QT0Llb08cA

youtube.com/watch?v=2-0IzSKJ3Eg&playnext=1&list=PL8EA2B3B4F7AD4107&feature=results_main

 

[mercytruth]

Micah,

Here are two videos on youtube and they abound on refuting Calvinism…CU should go there and then come back…

youtube.com/watch?v=3QT0Llb08cA

youtube.com/watch?v=2-0IzSKJ3Eg&playnext=1&list=PL8EA2B3B4F7AD4107&feature=results_main

CopticChristian,

Thanks for the suggestion, but I do not have access to Youtube.

How do I respond to God who has drawn me to His Son Jesus Christ after I was first humbled by God’s chastisement, and subsequently cried out for His forgiveness? I must humble myself before God in order to receive the forgiveness and the overcoming grace to resist sin in my life, which principally comes through the sacrament of reconciliation. In addition, I must humbly receive the holy Eucharist for the graces therein . Last, but not least, the empowerment of the Holy Spirit that is joined with prayer that humbly acknowledges that without Jesus Christ I can no do nothing.

Personally, it takes my cooperation every step of the way. God does not force me to receive the sacraments, to humbly pray for His graces, to be selfless, to work out my salvation with trembling and fear. This must initiate with the obedient decision of my own God given will, I can choose to resist, to quench, or to grieve His Holy Spirit, and I will suffer the consquences and the chastisements if I do.

The obedience of the human will was present within Judaism in the days of Jesus. Outwardly many of the religious Jews kept nine of the Ten Commandments. The one commandment they had most difficulty with was the tenth, "thou shalt not covet’.

Jesus came along and taught me that I must be selfless to enter the kingdom of heaven. This is contrary to my human nature, the world, and the devil. Jesus came along and said that I must keep the ten commandments inwardly, as well as outwardly.

Jesus came along and perfectly overcame the flesh, the world and the devil. In so doing, Jesus selflessly gave his life for me. He became the selfless victim for my sins. He died a death unspeakable for my sins.

Jesus now offers to me his Spirit, his overcoming virtues of faith, hope and love. He offers to me his overcoming grace to save me from my sins, and my predisposition for being selfish.

There is one condition that is required of me to receive these graces and his Spirit, I must be willing to count the cost. I must humble myself before God on a daily basis, and pray for His will to be done in my life.

It took me decades to come to this understanding, so I can not understand Calvinism.
I speak only for myself regarding my Christian/Catholic faith, and I have nothing more to say on this subject and with that,

God’s peace be with you all

micah