The Spiritual And Social Fate of the Regretful Transsexual

[mystagogia]

So, this might be a peculiar question, but it just occurred to me today, so I figured that I’d ask it.

What happens to a post-operative transsexual who later comes to regret the decision, both socially and religiously? By that point, they have so utterly altered their body that to return to their original form would be most difficult, if not impossible. As physical appearance is a huge part of the way we are treated in society, I suppose that would be an issue. And this would spill over into that person’s reintegration into more orthodox Catholic life. It’s a very complicated issue (to me at least), and I don’t know if I explained it well.

Still, your thoughts?

I saw a cable TV show on this topic, where a man became a woman and then went back to a man again. While a young man he fantasized about the easy power of a beautiful woman, and being handsome enough got operated on and became a transexual woman. He, now she, worked as a stripper. Later, as the beauty of his/her flesh faded and he/she was not so competitive as a stripper, he/she had another operation and went back to being a man again. He/she now rides the California sunset, gray haired, as a curioso figure dispensing wisdom regarding his journey (hence the show).

One thing that stood out to me when he/she talked about his/her days as a stripper was the pride he/she took at besting the “biologicals” (his/her term). This brought great satisfaction, and was in fact the focus of most of his/her recollections and in fact the fulcrum from which he justified all his actions. Being preferred over biological females was a big, satisfying deal.

He/She took a quick exit out of being a 40 year old stripper, re-sexed himself and recast himself/herself as an authentic “biker guru”. Got on TV over his/her story.

He/She reported great happiness looking back on his/her life, and gave thanks that he/she got to experience such wonderful diversity.

My feeling is that he/she robbed herself/himself. The he/she hopped around genders at opportune aging points and gamed her/his own experience.

Ironically presenting himself/herself as daringly authentic, he/she was a complete and self-controlled self-creation, a walking masturbation.

That’s one there-and-back-again story, a dramatic one, and I know of no others.

But that’s the one I know.

Cheers!

 

[aspawloski4th]

No one said that. I, not to mention Jesus, not to mention his Church, say that our personal sufferings are united to the sufferings of Christ, who, through his suffering, death, and Resurrection, sanctifies and glorifies our suffering by uniting us to himself. I’m not sure where you received your catechesis, but it is lacking, as you seem not to understand this basic, essential theology of Christology and the Paschal mystery. United in suffering does not mean “equivalent” or “on the same plane” as Jesus. It does not mean that we suffer cosmically, in the degree that he suffered. It means that our suffering, when united to his, is redemptive, transformative, and ultimately unitive.

When twins are born conjoined we separate them if we can , with out killing them. It a birth defect, we take care of it. I was born with a defect, my body is the wrong sex as compared to mind and soul. When I have the resourses to do it Ill fix that problems someday. Same difference. The say the former should be fixed and not the latter is a doulbe standard.

 

[Dale_M]

That’s one there-and-back-again story, a dramatic one, and I know of no others.

But that’s the one I know.

Cheers!

I would suggest to you that what you see on sensationalist television programs may not not reflect reality. What it does reflect is the interest of the television program… which is to attract an audience by being a bit wild. Very few persons who transition from one sex to the other regret that transition.

 

[mystagogia]

I would suggest to you that what you see on sensationalist television programs may not not reflect reality. What it does reflect is the interest of the television program… which is to attract an audience by being a bit wild. Very few persons who transition from one sex to the other regret that transition.

Granted, but this thread is about those that do.

 

[aspawloski4th]

I would suggest to you that what you see on sensationalist television programs may not not reflect reality. What it does reflect is the interest of the television program… which is to attract an audience by being a bit wild. Very few persons who transition from one sex to the other regret that transition.

The chance of me ever regreting is about the same as getting struck by lightning in a gypsom mine on a clear sunny day.

 

[Dale_M]

Granted, but this thread is about those that do.

Okay, but in which case we are talking about a very small minority of a very small minority. So far, the bulk of the commentary has not been about this minuscule population.

 

[jacie]

Okay, I’m just going to throw this out there, based on my lifetime of observing my daughter’s close friend growing up, and knowing her family. Maybe this doesn’t apply in every case, but here goes - I have come to think that it isn’t being LGB orT that makes one feel unnaccepted so much as it is feeling unnaccepted that makes one go the route of LGBT.

I’ve watched our friend’s journey, and I know the difficultiles she had with her dysfunctional family, and I truly believe that she was attracted to the lesbian lifestyle because she felt accepted there. It was also rebellious and outrageous enough to shock everyone in her life who didn’t love her enough or who she felt looked down upon her,

But the fact is, she’s not going to find fulfillment there, at least not in the long run. She desperately wants children, and is having to come to terms with the fact that she has chosen this lifestyle over the family she longs for. I’ve seen so many things in her life that have contributed to this, her mother’s inability to be emotionally close to her and truly, really love her, the tragic losses of many of the men in her life she was close to, her ADHD preventing other kids from liking her and preventing her from accomplishing many of her dreams because she couldn’t stick to anything long enough. And I hear the same thing in some of these posts, although I realize the writers attribute their feelings of rejection and failure to having the wrong body.

I’m trying to imagine myself a man right now, with all other things being equal, and I have to say I would make the best of it. I have a hard time thinking that it would cause me the kind of suffering that is described here. And I think that is because I would still have a loving, supportive family and friends, and of course my strong faith in God. I would still have my education, career, children and whatever other worldly accomplishments that give me confidence in myself. If one doesn’t have those things, I see how it would result in all sorts of confused and angry feelings.

 

[Dale_M]

I’m trying to imagine myself a man right now, with all other things being equal, and I have to say I would make the best of it. I have a hard time thinking that it would cause me the kind of suffering that is described here. And I think that is because I would still have a loving, supportive family and friends, and of course my strong faith in God. I would still have my education, career, children and whatever other worldly accomplishments that give me confidence in myself. If one doesn’t have those things, I see how it would result in all sorts of confused and angry feelings.

Thank you. You are saying that you have no idea of what it feels like. And how would would you? Its not something you have experienced. But I do thank you for giving it consideration.

 

[mystagogia]

Thank you. You are saying that you have no idea of what it feels like. And how would would you? Its not something you have experienced. But I do thank you for giving it consideration.

I am a man. I have every experience of feeling that a woman may have had. Joy? Love? Hate? Pain? Melancholy? Remorse? Pick one feeling, I bet you I’ve had it.

Argument from feeling moves me not.

On the argument from experience I’d say that I’ve been around for my years. I’ve had tons of mileage.

Are we caught up here in sexual identities, and how somehow landing on the right one, in the right way, arranged at great expense to everyone for the proper conditions, is good?

I was born into my lot; again, I am a man. At times I sorely wished I weren’t. The prospect of being a beautiful woman instead of what I am seems seductive. “If only! --”.

But I will never, in any form, wind up on the cover pages of Vogue. A gender change here, a gender change there (yes, suppose it is casual!) means nothing.

Why do you invest so much meaning in fleshy forms and sexual roles that you’d like to play? Given your “lot” as it is, why can you not manage it? Most of us do manage it and without making demands on society to redefine gender roles to our own satisfaction.

I am very sorry you would be happier if you were but born of a different gender. I am also very sorry if you think such a superficial change could provide real meaning to your life that you heretofore lacked. In heaven, angels are genderless and do not obey the slavery of the body, according to Our Lord.

And yes, I mean exactly the slavery of the body.Caught up in these issues regarding gay and transgender sex and all its degress and forms, you are caught up in sex and fleshy pursuits PLUS tying into your sacred identity intrinsically, ipso fiat.

Don’t do this. What a mistake it is to chain yourself to a sexual identity, that welds you to the flesh. Pursue the spirit, the truth, with wild, unquenchable abandon, forget your fleshy chores! That is best!

 

[Dale_M]

I am a man. I have every experience of feeling that a woman may have had. Joy? Love? Hate? Pain? Melancholy? Remorse? Pick one feeling, I bet you I’ve had it.

I bet you haven’t had the experience of being a woman, which is quite different from the experience of being a man.

****I was born into my lot; again, I am a man. At times I sorely wished I weren’t. The prospect of being a beautiful woman instead of what I am seems seductive. “If only! --”.

its not a matter of being a"beautiful" woman, but of being a woman. Your focus on beauty tells me you don’t understand what it is like.

Most of us do manage it and without making demands on society to redefine gender roles to our own satisfaction.

And how lucky the majority are. But that doesn’t speak about those who can not make it.

Don’t do this. What a mistake it is to chain yourself to a sexual identity, that welds you to the flesh. Pursue the spirit, the truth, with wild, unquenchable abandon, forget your fleshy chores! That is best!

You speak with the spirit of someone who has only known what is conventional, of what is supported by mainstream culture. How privileged you are! Do you realize the privilege with which you have been blessed?

 

[jacie]

Dale - I am not trying to minimize the pain you feel. As a matter of fact, I believe that you and others in similar situations experience such profound pain I hope I never know. But I have to think that this pain come not so much from feeling that you are in the wrong gendered body, but is far more spiritual, i.e. the pain of feeling unloved, unnaccepted, unwanted, undesired.

I just ask if you have fully and truly considered that the source of your desire to be the other gender lies much deeper in your psyche, a product of not receiving the love and approval of a parent of that desired gender? For instance, I truly believe that a great deal of the motivation behind the inclination to lesbianism of certain women I know is the unfulfilled desire for unconditional approval from their mother that they never got. They get the mothering (or the chance to mother) from their partner that they crave.

Could the dsire of a transexual take it a step further, and instead of getting the desired “parental” attention you are actually desiring to become that parent in some way? I know there is more involved, maybe some hormone imbalances, or maybe just a natural tendency to femininity, but in most conditions there is the natural tendency coupled with the emotional trigger that pushes one into the “disorder”.

And if you would allow me one other comment, in discussing the bearing of our crosses and why God would allow this, I like to point out that we’re not in Eden anymore. God created the earth and all its creatures perfect, and we rejected Him. We wanted to be in charge of defining good and evil, so now we’re stuck with it. Our sin brought death, sickness, genetic defects, and other disorders and failings into the human condition. But God can make us whole again, if not here then in eternity. Keep your eye on the prize - life here is short, although it may not feel that way at times.

 

[Dale_M]

Jacie, when I re-read the comment I made to you last night, I realized that I was too sharp with you. I apologize for that. And I thank you for your willingness to discuss this topic with obvious charity.

You may be right that non-biological factors play a part in how a transsexual deals with his or her problem. A small mystery is why so many Male to Female transsexuals change their body, but much fewer Female to Male transsexuals do so. I don’t know the reason why this disparity exists, and this is pure speculation, but it is possible that the why girls are typically raised (taught to value relationships highly and get their pleasure from pleasing others) may make them more hesitant to change their bodies (and thus their relationships.) On the other hand, the difference may be rooted in biology or it may be rooted in culture - our culture is much more accepting of girls and women behaving “male” than it is of boys and men acting “female.”

As to your psychological theories about parents, I can’t say you are wrong - there may be some transsexuals who fit what you say. But I don’t think it is true for most transsexuals.

 

[Methodi]

^^ …again with the subjective judgments. Unless you’re in a position to know from the inside the universe of physical ailments, you cannot make a judgment that your suffering is “worse” than another person’s – whatever form that takes in the other person. You can only make a judgment that your personal mental sufferings are more difficulty than your personal physical sufferings. ALL SUFFERING IS BAD, BUT DONT TELL ME THAT SOME PEOPLE DONT SUFFER MORE THAN OTHERS, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT MYSELF EITHER. WHEN U HAVE A LIFETIME OF UNHAPPINESS & IT NEVER LETS UP, I SAY U ARE SUFFERING BADLY. SOME PEOPLE GET SICK AND AN OPERATION MAKES THEM OK AGAIN ETC, BUT WITH MENTAL PROBLEMS & BORN A HOMOSEXUAL, THERE IS LITTLE TO BE DONE,GET IT.THEY SUFFER MENTAL TORMENT & ANGUISH A LIFETIME.GOD MADE US TO BE HAPPY, TO ENJOY LIFE,SO ITS NOT NATURAL THAT A PERSON SHOULD SUFFER A LIFETIME.PEOPLE CRY BECAUSE IT RAINED ON THEIR WEDDING DAY, OH WHAT A SHAME,OR THEIR DRESS MAYBE WONT BE READY, OH WHAT A SHAME,GET IT.I LAUGH WHEN I HEAR STUFF LIKE THAT.AGAIN I SAY, THERE ARE MANY DEGREES OF SUFFERING. ALSO THE WAY YOU PUT IT WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT IT ,WE KNOW NOTHING , WE JUST THINK WE KNOW

 

[Elizabeth502]

^^ …again with the subjective judgments. Unless you’re in a position to know from the inside the universe of physical ailments, you cannot make a judgment that your suffering is “worse” than another person’s – whatever form that takes in the other person. You can only make a judgment that your personal

mental sufferings are more difficulty than your personal physical sufferings. ALL SUFFERING IS BAD, BUT DONT TELL ME THAT SOME PEOPLE DONT SUFFER MORE THAN OTHERS, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT MYSELF EITHER. WHEN U HAVE A LIFETIME OF UNHAPPINESS & IT NEVER LETS UP, I SAY U ARE SUFFERING BADLY. SOME PEOPLE GET SICK AND AN OPERATION MAKES THEM OK AGAIN ETC, BUT WITH MENTAL PROBLEMS & BORN A HOMOSEXUAL, THERE IS LITTLE TO BE DONE,GET IT.THEY SUFFER MENTAL TORMENT & ANGUISH A LIFETIME.GOD MADE US TO BE HAPPY, TO ENJOY LIFE,SO ITS NOT NATURAL THAT A PERSON SHOULD SUFFER A LIFETIME.PEOPLE CRY BECAUSE IT RAINED ON THEIR WEDDING DAY, OH WHAT A SHAME,OR THEIR DRESS MAYBE WONT BE READY, OH WHAT A SHAME,GET IT.I LAUGH WHEN I HEAR STUFF LIKE THAT.AGAIN I SAY, THERE ARE MANY DEGREES OF SUFFERING. ALSO THE WAY YOU PUT IT WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT IT ,WE KNOW NOTHING , WE JUST THINK WE KNOW

There’s no need to scream at people, but I can certainly tell that you are frustrated, so I will try to be calm & compassionate here. I do feel compassionate; I think you misunderstand this.

CRY BECAUSE IT RAINED ON THEIR WEDDING DAY, OH WHAT A SHAME,OR THEIR DRESS MAYBE WONT BE READY, OH WHAT A SHAME,GET IT.I LAUGH WHEN I HEAR STUFF LIKE THAT.

Such triviliaties have never even entered this discussion until you brought in such a ridiculous comparison, as if I included such “suffering” in the category of genuine agony.

Quote: “DONT TELL ME THAT SOME PEOPLE DONT SUFFER MORE THAN OTHERS.”
I never made such a statement. I said, and I will repeat, that we can each know only the degree of our own suffering, as well as what has been imperfectly relayed to us directly by others, regarding their sufferings. How many billion people are there on the face of the earth? (That was a rhetorical question.) Many people suffer less than transsexuals; however, many people who are not transsexuals may suffer more than transsexuals do. You don’t know that this is not true. Some people have been forced to watch their loved ones be brutalized and die before their eyes – as a form of torture. You don’t think it makes any parent crazy with rage to watch a daughter raped before their eyes, then executed? There are unfortunately hundreds of unspeakable sufferings conferred upon people – some at the hands of cruel others, not at the hands of a cruel God or by conditions of birth.

“THERE ARE MANY DEGREES OF SUFFERING.”
Thank you for repeating my point for me. That’s exactly what I’m saying. And you know no more about how many degrees there are, and whose suffering is “worse,” than I do. The difference, I am aware of the limits of my knowledge; you are not.

 

[Methodi]

Methodi;4793459:

There’s no need to scream at people, but I can certainly tell that you are frustrated, so I will try to be calm & compassionate here. I do feel compassionate; I think you misunderstand this.

CRY BECAUSE IT RAINED ON THEIR WEDDING DAY, OH WHAT A SHAME,OR THEIR DRESS MAYBE WONT BE READY, OH WHAT A SHAME,GET IT.I LAUGH WHEN I HEAR STUFF LIKE THAT.

Such triviliaties have never even entered this discussion until you brought in such a ridiculous comparison, as if I included such “suffering” in the category of genuine agony.

Quote: “DONT TELL ME THAT SOME PEOPLE DONT SUFFER MORE THAN OTHERS.”
I never made such a statement. I said, and I will repeat, that we can each know only the degree of our own suffering, as well as what has been imperfectly relayed to us directly by others, regarding their sufferings. How many billion people are there on the face of the earth? (That was a rhetorical question.) Many people suffer less than transsexuals; however, many people who are not transsexuals may suffer more than transsexuals do. You don’t know that this is not true. Some people have been forced to watch their loved ones be brutalized and die before their eyes – as a form of torture. You don’t think it makes any parent crazy with rage to watch a daughter raped before their eyes, then executed? There are unfortunately hundreds of unspeakable sufferings conferred upon people – some at the hands of cruel others, not at the hands of a cruel God or by conditions of birth.

“THERE ARE MANY DEGREES OF SUFFERING.”
Thank you for repeating my point for me. That’s exactly what I’m saying. And you know no more about how many degrees there are, and whose suffering is “worse,” than I do. The difference, I am aware of the limits of my knowledge; you are not.

Your the one who brought in ridiculous comparisons, I get the impression that your a know it all, & from what i gathered from your post, no one is suffering, You did come across cold

 

[Dale_M]

Your the one who brought in ridiculous comparisons

I think the comparisons which Elizabeth makes are legitimate. What I disagree with is her contention that the greater suffering of some individuals someone trumps or invalidates the sufferings of others. I don’t think setting up some kind of Suffering Olympics serves any purpose.

 

[Methodi]

I think the comparisons which Elizabeth makes are legitimate. What I disagree with is her contention that the greater suffering of some individuals someone trumps or invalidates the sufferings of others. I don’t think setting up some kind of Suffering Olympics serves any purpose.

I am in no way trying to do that

 

[Dale_M]

I am in no way trying to do that

I know that. My comment wasn’t about you.

But isn’t it great that we got the quotes working correctly again?

 

[Methodi]

I know that. My comment wasn’t about you.

But isn’t it great that we got the quotes working correctly again?

sure is Dale!

 

[Elizabeth502]

Elizabeth502;4794311:

Your the one who brought in ridiculous comparisons, I get the impression that your a know it all, & from what i gathered from your post, no one is suffering, You did come across cold

Never once can you demonstrate on this thread that I brought in “ridiculous comparisons.” Never once. In fact, quite the opposite. It was you who introduced trivial sufferings, not myself. I’m saying that similarly unspeakable or horrendous sufferings and tragedies cannot be objectively, quantitatively, compared or ranked. This is particularly true when at least 2 different sufferers are involved.

We may legitimately rank our own personal sufferings in order of difficulty. That’s all we are in a position to do. Because the receiver (sufferer) is the one who perceives and experiences the suffering and has, or has not, the capacity to endure, to resist, to assimilate & utilize grace, as well as human aids such as medications, psychotherapy, and a social network of support. Some people have all those aids and cannot take advantage of them, or find them inadequate, & their suffering is barely relieved. Other people, with similar sufferings, have internal stamina and/or are receptive to spiritual graces which assist them in ways that others have not the strength for. (Nor am I making any judgement about either group.)