The Spiritual And Social Fate of the Regretful Transsexual

[Elizabeth502]

I think the comparisons which Elizabeth makes are legitimate. What I disagree with is **her contention that the greater suffering of some individuals someone trumps or invalidates the sufferings of others. **I don’t think setting up some kind of Suffering Olympics serves any purpose.

Again, I have never said that. Rather, it is others on this thread that seek to rank suffering, categorize, and compare – stating that some suffering is “worse” than others. Suffering is subjectively experienced. People have varying capacities to endure pain. Some people endure physical pain well, but not mental. Others, the reverse. Some people can practically have an operation with a little local anesthetic; others need to be practically put to sleep for a minor medical procedure. It is not for you or I or anyone on CAF to judge “who suffers more/most/less/least.”

 

[Dale_M]

Again, I have never said that.

Then I apologize for misunderstanding you. Would you be willing to clarify what you meant when you wrote:

And what’s worse? To be born “in the wrong body”? Or to be born, or become, a quadriplegic? Or someone with ALS? Or someone genetically bound to develop Huntington’s disease? At the moment, all those conditions are irreversible medically. Maybe I’m a cold person, but to my mind, those conditions are far more tragic – assuming the would-be transsexual is otherwise physically healthy.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4787056&postcount=17

 

[mystagogia]

Stop this madness.

What case do you supporters of homosexuality and transexualism make for them being a net good?

I would point out that “good” has serveral aspects.

1. A personal good.
2. A public good
3. A spiritual good

So, you defenders of homosexuality and transexualism, make your case here and now.

Sincerely I ask you, what is the good of these things? Lay out your case; I want to be educated about these issues you are so impassioned about.

Peace be with you,

Mystgogia

 

[Dale_M]

What case do you supporters of homosexuality and transexualism make for them being a net good?

I would point out that “good” has serveral aspects.

1. A personal good.
2. A public good
3. A spiritual good

You ask a very broad question which might do better if you started two threads about them: one for transsexualism and one for homosexuality.

I will take on the transsexualism topic here, but will have to narrow it down. Transsexualism is a condition which causes a great deal of suffering for those affected by it. I don’t think it could be described as good in and of itself.

But if we are talk only about the issue of surgery to correct transsexualism, then I think it can be described as a good. It reduces personal suffering and the ensuing well-being makes that person more able to contribute to society.

As for spiritual good, perhaps you could answer a question. What is the spiritual good of curing any disease?

 

[aussie_jaz]

why , when this is a topic of transsexuality , do people feel the need to bring homosexuality in to this.the two groups are completely different and grouping them together only goes to show the ignorance some people have towards both sections of the community.
a simple question to those who are not defending the transsex people.if you or your child were born with a physical deformity and there was a surgical procedure which could help to give you or your child to a relatively normal physical existance would you take the opportunity to have that chance at some normality or would you stay ,or keep the child the same, so they constantly endure the suffering involved as long as they exist?
with the growing knowledge the medical world has it has changed many lives for the better,lives that would have had endless suffering without the treatments that have been produced.why should some be able to have such treatment and nothing said against them while others are told their treatment is wrong and shouldnt be allowed?

 

[Elizabeth502]

Then I apologize for misunderstanding you. Would you be willing to clarify what you meant when you wrote:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4787056&postcount=17

I see the basis of your misunderstanding. Let me clarify. I’m saying that a dancer or an athlete may experience becoming a quadriplegic in the prime of life as a devastating suffering, whereas someone else may not. But neither you nor I knows that. From the outside, any particular intact body may view paralysis as unendurable, compared to particular varieties of mental suffering, including that of gender identity. But it is as inaccurate & meaningless to make that claim, as to make the opposite claim (that objectively speaking, gender mis-identity is the worst imaginable suffering). By definition, suffering is subjective and relative to the capacity of the person to endure that particular suffering in the context of his or her particular threshold-- & the only true cosmically comparative weight which can be applied between and among human sufferings is what God alone can know. We have no such over-arching knowledge. Suffering is no more quantifiable on a human scale than love is.

I’m just offended that anyone would be so wrapped in themselves as not to understand or appreciate or be able to project into the lives of people who may, I said may, have sufferings worse than anyone on CAF has endured or can imagine.

 

[Dale_M]

But it is as inaccurate & meaningless to make that claim, as to make the opposite claim (that objectively speaking, gender mis-identity is the worst imaginable suffering). By definition, suffering is subjective and relative to the capacity of the person to endure that particular suffering in the context of his or her particular threshold-- & the only true cosmically comparative weight which can be applied between and among human sufferings is what God alone can know.

We agree then.

why , when this is a topic of transsexuality , do people feel the need to bring homosexuality in to this.the two groups are completely different

I suppose it is easy to conflate the two, if you have little experience or knowledge of either one. I think it goes back to the gender stereotyping that many of us grow up with, i.e. feminine boys and men are seen as gay and masculine women as lesbian.

 

[jacie]

Sorry, I have to defend Elizabeth. She is stating her case very well, but no one seems to be understanding what she is trying to say. Maybe you guys should re-read her posts more carefully. There is a lot of good theology in them.

 

[Dale_M]

Sorry, I have to defend Elizabeth. She is stating her case very well, but no one seems to be understanding what she is trying to say. Maybe you guys should re-read her posts more carefully. There is a lot of good theology in them.

Hm. She has presented some good theology, but I also disagree how she applies some of it. For example, she writes:

And I still ask the question from the perspective of Christian philosophy: Is it redemptive to go to extreme lengths to reverse every suffering, including any suffering we are born with and find difficult, distasteful, even agonizing?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4787056&postcount=17

Obviously offering up suffering can be redemptive. But is suffering a good in and of itself? Is a woman to be faulted that she chooses to get an epidural when giving birth? Should curable medical conditions be left untreated for the sake of promoting suffering?

 

[Elizabeth502]

Hm. She has presented some good theology, but I also disagree how she applies some of it. For example, she writes:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4787056&postcount=17

Obviously offering up suffering can be redemptive. But is suffering a good in and of itself? Is a woman to be faulted that she chooses to get an epidural when giving birth? Should curable medical conditions be left untreated for the sake of promoting suffering?

Again, I never said that, and I truly, truly appreciate jacie for being enough of a critical reader to read my posts accurately

Dale, you are not making logically threaded arguments. You are jumping from (1) whether or not surgical gender alteration is a morally valid choice (and similarly, whether a woman in childbirth may exercise an epidural option without spiritual or moral judgment) to (2) philosophical speculation on the hypothetical rankings of specific sufferings - a ridiculous and impossible question to answer.

Suffering is redemptive when we choose to accept interiorly what we have no choice to alter. If we don’t believe that inescapable suffering is redemptive, we have no business calling ourselves Christians.

 

[jacie]

I would agree that suffering in and of itself is not generally a good. Maybe Elizabeth can better explain that comment.

But from the point of view of the Catholic faith, I think the issue of transexual surgery is more a matter of disfiguring your body from what God intended. The sexual act is sacred and life-giving. I realize you believe that you are merely “correcting” a flaw of nature, but if your intent is to engage in sexual relations, even with a spouse, then it is not a union open to life. We can then get into the whole other argument about artificial contraception and sterilization, which can start a whole new thread, but the arguments are closely intertwined. I suspect JPII’s Theology of the Body would have some wisdom to offer here. But I know that the Virgin Mary herself in many of her messages to visionaries that have been reported around the world, especially decries the disfigurement of surgical sterilization.

 

[mystagogia]

You ask a very broad question which might do better if you started two threads about them: one for transsexualism and one for homosexuality.

I will take on the transsexualism topic here, but will have to narrow it down. Transsexualism is a condition which causes a great deal of suffering for those affected by it. I don’t think it could be described as good in and of itself.

But if we are talk only about the issue of surgery to correct transsexualism, then I think it can be described as a good. It reduces personal suffering and the ensuing well-being makes that person more able to contribute to society.

As for spiritual good, perhaps you could answer a question. What is the spiritual good of curing any disease?

The spiritual good of curing any disease is mirrored with the physical cure. Did not Our Lord say it is easier to say “Your sins are forgiven” than “arise and walk?” Always with the laying on of hands, and always with the anointing of the sick, the cure has been twofold in the ways of Christ. In fact the physical healing is quite secondary; the spiritual healing is foremost.

I will re-posit my question: are homosexuality and transexualism diseases, or are they beneficent states?

You bristle at the inclusion of homosexuality and transexualism as like species. Well, okay, note that you are somewhat alone in that the Gay and Lesbian Task Force has becomet the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Task Force. Gay issues have become LGBT issues. That’s the parlance, those are married agendas.

I’d ask you why that is, but I’ll leave that to another day, time and thread.

Leaving out Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual issues, do you see the transgender problem as one of switching around gender roles within the traditional concept of marital and famial norms? Are you merely about swapping horses midstream along this course, or about redifining the accepted notions of family and gender relations?

 

[Elizabeth502]

I would agree that suffering in and of itself is not generally a good. Maybe Elizabeth can better explain that comment.

I give up. Please read my last post.

 

[jacie]

Yes, sorry, I posted that before I saw the last several posts. Still learning this system. Finally figured out that when I click on the link in my e-mail, it doesn’t show me all the posts.

 

[Dale_M]

Again, I never said that

Elizabeth, I never said you did. Those are questions I asked.

Dale, you are not making logically threaded arguments. You are jumping from (1) whether or not surgical gender alteration is a morally valid choice (and similarly, whether a woman in childbirth may exercise an epidural option without spiritual or moral judgment) to (2) philosophical speculation on the hypothetical rankings of specific sufferings - a ridiculous and impossible question to answer.

I wonder if you are using, for your Thread Display Mode, the “threaded” choice, rather than the “linear” choice. Perhaps my postings would make more sense in “linear” mode, since I have been replying to the comments made shortly (if not immediately) before mine.

Suffering is redemptive when we choose to accept interiorly what we have no choice to alter. If we don’t believe that inescapable suffering is redemptive, we have no business calling ourselves Christians.

Again, we agree. What I think we disagree on is whether sex change surgery is a viable choice. I say that it is medical procedure to reduce unnecessary suffering.

 

[Dale_M]

But from the point of view of the Catholic faith, I think the issue of transexual surgery is more a matter of disfiguring your body from what God intended.

And I think this is what it comes down to. If a transsexual believes as you do, then sex change surgery is not a viable choice and the suffering must be endured.

 

[aussie_jaz]

the glb movement added the t (glbt) only to bring more numbers in their minorities to the floor.the t part is very much to do with what the real transgender movement is about , transvestism,cross dressing etc… it is not transsex although the t part of glbt do say it is for the benefit of their own fetish desires.transsex is not transgender and transgender is not transsex.
glb are those who have the correct bodies.their sex and gender match.they are just attracted to those of the same sex.
transgender are also in the right bodies they just have a fetish desire to dress in the attire of the opposite sex for whatever reason.
transsex are not in the right sex for their gender.it is not a fetish or a mental disorder.it also is not the same as glb for a transsex person can be heterosexual,homosexual,bisexual or non sexual.

 

[Dale_M]

I will re-posit my question: are homosexuality and transexualism diseases, or are they beneficent states?

Then I will answer you again. Homosexuality and transsexualism are unrelated. And transsexualism is not a beneficent state, which is why sex change surgery is a good.

You bristle at the inclusion of homosexuality and transexualism as like species. Well, okay, note that you are somewhat alone in that the Gay and Lesbian Task Force has becomet the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Task Force. Gay issues have become LGBT issues. That’s the parlance, those are married agendas.

I’m not bristling, merely correcting a common misunderstanding. As for the LGBT thing, its a coalition. And coalitions bring different groups together for a common interest, in the case of the Gay and Lesbian Task Force, the interest is promoting the civil rights of these groups.

Leaving out Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual issues, do you see the transgender problem as one of switching around gender roles within the traditional concept of marital and famial norms? Are you merely about swapping horses midstream along this course, or about redifining the accepted notions of family and gender relations?

I think how a person deals with their transsexualism is a highly personal one, and if you ask 10 different transsexuals those questions you will get 10 different answers.

 

[mystagogia]

the glb movement added the t (glbt) only to bring more numbers in their minorities to the floor.the t part is very much to do with what the real transgender movement is about , transvestism,cross dressing etc… it is not transsex although the t part of glbt do say it is for the benefit of their own fetish desires.transsex is not transgender and transgender is not transsex.
glb are those who have the correct bodies.their sex and gender match.they are just attracted to those of the same sex.
transgender are also in the right bodies they just have a fetish desire to dress in the attire of the opposite sex for whatever reason.
transsex are not in the right sex for their gender.it is not a fetish or a mental disorder.it also is not the same as glb for a transsex person can be heterosexual,homosexual,bisexual or non sexual.

I sympathize with your attempt to clarify and delineate among various like groups on the left. At one earlier point in my life these distinctions might have had force. They don’t anymore for me, for I can see the design and the intent of obfuscation.

Look, the reality is really very simple. Biological sex IS effectively binary. Gender identity is another question altogether and it slides around. Modern science makes gender re-assignment possible, allowing one to take on the appearance of possessing the other gender.

Bottom line: you accept your gender or you lie about it. Don’t shirk, that is the bottom line.

No post-op female had a girlhood.
No post-op male had a boyhood.

Each acts out fantasies, sad tragic fantasies, in which the grass is greener on the other side. Each lives a lie: you are not a woman if did not have a vagina until your 20’s or 30’s. You are an imitation woman. You are fooling yourself, and worse, prospective mates if think otherwise.

I am sensitive to the burden of being born thinking you might be of the wrong gender. Believe me, I am VERY sensitive and compassionate in that regard. VERY, VERY compassionate. How wonderful it must be to spend even one day “on the other side” of the gender gulf!

We must forget such fantasies, however. They only lead towards pain; others have it worse; and, importantly, in the long run and in the spiritual sense all of these problems are reducible to sexual ones.

How stupid, but interminable, are sexual problems! The Church’s teachings on sex might seem incredibly onerous - but there’s a dirty little secret: They are wise. Hard come by, but very wise!

 

[aussie_jaz]

sorry but you are wrong in what your saying.it has been proven that transsex people are of the opposite sex to that which they appeared at birth.
a simple thing to learn is sex and gender are different.sex is only the physical parts one has,the gender is something within the brain.
there is plenty of evidence which shows the male to female transsex person has the same brain activity as a genetic born female unlike the transgenders and homosexuals who still have the same as other men.
if i were more computer literate i would post up links to the information.i have seen others on this site with the same info ive collected so a bit of a search on the topic might show some of those links to back this up.