The SSPX and True Catholicism

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TNT said:
Your post sounds well thought out. If it hasn’t already, it ought to be sent to every catholic/Trad & NO paper as at least a Letter to the Editor, or an Editorial itself.

That’s what I think. And of course I’m never wrong.
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I wonder how many of the NO papers would actually publish it…
 
MariaG said:
Hi,

Very good heartfelt post.

In my ignorance, I MAY be wrong in my answer but hopefully help you understand better why you feel you are treated as the “orphan child”. But at least from what I know and understand, I see the SSPX (or am I thinking SSPV?) it is an authority issue. Failure to acknowledge the authority of the Pope and bishops over them. It is not the perfectly wonderful way that God is worshiped but a failure to acknowledge those who now “sit in the chair of Peter”. Just as Christ told His apostles that they needed to do what those who “sit in the seat of Moses” told them to do. Is that right to treat them as orphans? No.

That does not take away the hurt. That does not change that you can clearly see that there are many who do not seem to have proper respect for Our Lord.

But just as you were raised in the environment you mention, there are those of us who have been raised in the environment that you were so appalled by. We have had it no different, and know no other form (unless we seek out places like this:thumbsup: ) And even if we wished to, there is no other place for us to worship, no TLM mass closer than 2 hours away, if that.

Does that change how you are made to feel? No. But if it helps at all, I do know how you feel. Coming from fundamental Protestant Churches whom treat Catholics as nominal Christians at best and not Christian at all as the norm gives me a good idea of what you go through.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria
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The SSPX profess a loyalty to the Holy Father. They just refuse the New Mass, and consequently anything the Holy Father does in support of the New Mass.

The SSPV might be what your talking about. They completly disregard the Holy Father in that respect.

Thank you for your words of understanding.

I do recognize there is some disobedience in the SSPX towards Rome, but what I find appalling is the fact that they are treated with less respect than other Christians who are openly schismatic with the Church. Such as the Orthodox.
Or profess a different religion alltogether, like the Muslims or Jews.

Hopefully Pope Benedict will help smooth out these problems with his efforts.

Prayer is the true medicine in this situation.
 
Missa_Solemnis said:
The SSPX profess a loyalty to the Holy Father. They just refuse the New Mass, and consequently anything the Holy Father does in support of the New Mass.

The SSPV might be what your talking about. They completly disregard the Holy Father in that respect.

Thank you for your words of understanding.

I do recognize there is some disobedience in the SSPX towards Rome, but what I find appalling is the fact that they are treated with less respect than other Christians who are openly schismatic with the Church. Such as the Orthodox.
Or profess a different religion alltogether, like the Muslims or Jews.

Hopefully Pope Benedict will help smooth out these problems with his efforts.

Prayer is the true medicine in this situation.
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Thanks, I am learning. I think someone told me yesterday or the day before, but I still am mixing them up. (Actually, yesterday, I did not even know there were two different groups SSPX and SSPV:p )

Prayer is the true medicine:gopray:

God Bless,
Maria
 
Something I think Pope Benedict knows is that the Orthodox are appauled by what we Romans have done to our liturgy in the wake of Vatican II. Their rites are younger than our old Roman Rite, but they scrupulously preserved these rites through times of suppression and persecution. Their rites are their link to the apostles. When they see how we threw out so much in our liturgy, they are scandalized. I know of one orthodox priest who had to walk out of a contemporary Mass because he didn’t think people had the foggiest idea what they were participating in (and, if you believe all the polls the American newspapers have on how poor the average Catholic’s faith is, he might not be all that wrong in his assumptions).

Here’s my real point in bringing this up:

The Orthodox Churches are the only Christians we have any reasonable hope of reunifying with. Anglicans, in deciding to ordain women, have closed ecumenical dialog for good. Mainstream Protestant and Fudnamentalist churches are off the radar screen with regards to reunification. If we are doing things that scandalize our closest Christian brethren, shouldn’t that give us pause? As Chesterton said, “Oftentimes, we don’t know what we are doing because we don’t know what we are UNdoing.” Many things were take away from the Mass at Vatican II.

Ratzinger called the Novus Ordo a “banal, on-the-spot product”. His critiques of the current liturgy are well-documented. Not only that, but he has a theologically razor-sharp mind that understands the difficulties the Orthodox Churches have with Rome. All in all, the Orthodox are very excited as his ascension to the Papal throne.

He has a sense of how tradition and orthodoxy should come out not only in interior motvies but in exterior realizations of that Apostolic Faith.
 
Windmill said:
Something I think Pope Benedict knows is that the Orthodox are appauled by what we Romans have done to our liturgy in the wake of Vatican II. Their rites are younger than our old Roman Rite, but they scrupulously preserved these rites through times of suppression and persecution. Their rites are their link to the apostles. When they see how we threw out so much in our liturgy, they are scandalized. I know of one orthodox priest who had to walk out of a contemporary Mass because he didn’t think people had the foggiest idea what they were participating in (and, if you believe all the polls the American newspapers have on how poor the average Catholic’s faith is, he might not be all that wrong in his assumptions).

Here’s my real point in bringing this up:

The Orthodox Churches are the only Christians we have any reasonable hope of reunifying with. Anglicans, in deciding to ordain women, have closed ecumenical dialog for good. Mainstream Protestant and Fudnamentalist churches are off the radar screen with regards to reunification. If we are doing things that scandalize our closest Christian brethren, shouldn’t that give us pause? As Chesterton said, “Oftentimes, we don’t know what we are doing because we don’t know what we are UNdoing.” Many things were take away from the Mass at Vatican II.

Ratzinger called the Novus Ordo a “banal, on-the-spot product”. His critiques of the current liturgy are well-documented. Not only that, but he has a theologically razor-sharp mind that understands the difficulties the Orthodox Churches have with Rome. All in all, the Orthodox are very excited as his ascension to the Papal throne.

He has a sense of how tradition and orthodoxy should come out not only in interior motvies but in exterior realizations of that Apostolic Faith.
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Amen.

Long live Pope Benedict!
 
OK, I accept your heartfelt questioning and I hope you’ll accept my heartfelt answer which is, in fact, actually more questions. Why is it that we can’t say that the Orthodox, the SSPX and the liberals are not all where they are supposed to be? Why do we always have to, as children, say “Well, that other group is doing x, y and z?” Does this really excuse the error of the SSPX, Orthodox or liberals? There are actually other Traditionalists who also find fault with the SSPX. If there weren’t, we wouldn’t have the Institute or the FSSP. Yes, there are some on the forums who bash the SSPX and there are some who bash the liberals. I, for one, am and equal opportunity basher. 😉 In reality, it actually comes down to the same problem with both sides of the coin. They are disobedient and prideful. Each think that they possess the truth about obedience and both are wrong. Just to somewhat join in the pep rally - Down with the 7 EMHCs!👍
 
bear06 said:
OK, I accept your heartfelt questioning and I hope you’ll accept my heartfelt answer which is, in fact, actually more questions. Why is it that we can’t say that the Orthodox, the SSPX and the liberals are not all where they are supposed to be? Why do we always have to, as children, say “Well, that other group is doing x, y and z?” Does this really excuse the error of the SSPX, Orthodox or liberals? There are actually other Traditionalists who also find fault with the SSPX. If there weren’t, we wouldn’t have the Institute or the FSSP. Yes, there are some on the forums who bash the SSPX and there are some who bash the liberals. I, for one, am and equal opportunity basher. 😉 In reality, it actually comes down to the same problem with both sides of the coin. They are disobedient and prideful. Each think that they possess the truth about obedience and both are wrong. Just to somewhat join in the pep rally - Down with the 7 EMHCs!👍
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The differance here being that the SSPX is of sound Catholic doctrine (as clearly demonstrated in the topic post) while the liberals are often heretical.

The big problem is of course that more Bishops find fault with the SSPX then they do with the liberals. You can be a priest now and denounce the Church’s position on gay marriage, abortion, birth control and the like; you can celebrate Masses that are truly pathetic and abusive; you can even molest children and get away with it- but dont you dare speak a word of latin!

Few people are actualy willing to recognize that the SSPX is not some distant, super-radical, sedevacantist group that is totaly alientated from the rest of the Church. The fact is that the SSPX teaches the faith better then many other organizations in better standing with Rome.

It is completely wrong to push the SSPX togather with the liberals and the heretics.
 
bear06 said:
OK, I accept your heartfelt questioning and I hope you’ll accept my heartfelt answer which is, in fact, actually more questions. Why is it that we can’t say that the Orthodox, the SSPX and the liberals are not all where they are supposed to be? Why do we always have to, as children, say “Well, that other group is doing x, y and z?” Does this really excuse the error of the SSPX, Orthodox or liberals? There are actually other Traditionalists who also find fault with the SSPX. If there weren’t, we wouldn’t have the Institute or the FSSP. Yes, there are some on the forums who bash the SSPX and there are some who bash the liberals. I, for one, am and equal opportunity basher. 😉 In reality, it actually comes down to the same problem with both sides of the coin. They are disobedient and prideful. Each think that they possess the truth about obedience and both are wrong. Just to somewhat join in the pep rally - Down with the 7 EMHCs!👍
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Caesar said:
The problem is of course, that more Bishops find fault with the SSPX then they do with the liberals. You can be a priest now and denounce the Church’s position on gay marriage, abortion, birth control and the like; you can celebrated Masses that are truly pathetic and abusive; you can even molest children and get away with it- but dont you dare speak a word of latin!

Few people are actualy willing to recognize that the SSPX is not some distant, super-radical, sedevacantist group that is totaly alientated from the rest of the Church. The fact is that the SSPX teaches the faith better then many other organizations in better standing with Rome.

It is completely wrong to push the SSPX togather with the liberals and the heretics.
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I agree with Caesar. The point isnt wether or not the SSPX are in schism. The question is wether or not they are treated fairly.

In which case they are not.

What my OP was trying to illustrate was that the SSPX IS Catholic. It IS a Catholic organization. It teaches THE Catholic Faith.

The EO does not teach what Rome teaches, neither do the protestants, nor any of the other non-Catholics.

Yet a warm and open hand is extended to them, while a cold and suspicious hand is thrust at the SSPX.

There are priests out there who have done far worse things than ordaining illicit bishops, these priests preach perverted doctrines from Parish and University pulpits, they openly profess heresy, they molest children, they question time-tested valus concerning marriage and chastity…They are not excomunicated, to do so would be radical in the eyes of many Bishops today.

Yet the SSPX, who teaches Catholicism in its true form, are oppressed just like, no, even worse than heretics.

Thats the problem/question.

Not wether or not the SSPX are justified, but wether or not they should be treated the way they do by the majority of the Church today.
 
Missa_Solemnis said:
Yet the SSPX, who teaches Catholicism in its true form, are oppressed just like, no, even worse than heretics.

Not wether or not the SSPX are justified, but wether or not they should be treated the way they do by the majority of the Church today.
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Indeed. As I said so so well earlier:
Resurrexit said:
Some good points. It is indeed a paradox that we are open and welcoming to the Eastern Orthodox heretics and schismatics, the Protestant heretics and schismatics, and the Muslim infidel; and yet those who are in fact FAR more Catholic than any of these groups are treated by most like they have the plague.

Who said the Novus Ordo lacks mystery? 😛
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rather than watch this thread go off in a bad direction, I think we can agree that our present holy father, BXVI, who is no spring chicken, is using his years on this earth very wisely. We should be edified by his determination to reach out to the EO and the SSPX to try to heal the divisions that exist. Notice, he is not entering into ecumenical dialog with the Assembly of God. Why waste time on hopeless ventures.
 
Missa Solemnis,

Great post!!! You read my heart perfectly. If you get “banned” from these forums for that post, then perhaps these forums are controled by the “Liberals”.

I know several that have been banned. I’ve been reprimended a couple of times.

Don’t see much of Dr. Bombay any more. Perhaps he is just watching and waiting to strike!

Seriously, you’ve said it from the heart!

God Bless you
 
Trident59 said:
Missa Solemnis,

Great post!!! You read my heart perfectly. If you get “banned” from these forums for that post, then perhaps these forums are controled by the “Liberals”.

I know several that have been banned. I’ve been reprimended a couple of times.

Don’t see much of Dr. Bombay any more. Perhaps he is just watching and waiting to strike!

Seriously, you’ve said it from the heart!

God Bless you
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Thank you.

And yes…Dr. Bombay is a great Internet Martyr of these forums.
 
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