The sufficiency of Christ

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kempo1 said:
i just wanna comment a little because my family consists of catholics,baptists,and assembly of god. what i find is that a lot of non catholics kind of have a lazy christian view, another words they think all they have to do is say the sinners prayer and thats that. we catholics believe you have to continually work toward salvation. when you become a christian you become part of the body of christ,a member, but you cant believe you are perfect from then on and dont have to participate to keep your salvation alive. i know for me it is a daily work that never ends. Christ did not say to the apostles now that you believe go home it is finshed. He told them to preach the gospel, heal the sick, feed the hungery, build the church, etc… work constantly every day because we all fall short. peace be with you all and god bless:)🙂
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Thanks for your contribution and wisdom. This may be a great thread topic for you to continue with. What does it mean to enter the Sabbath rest found in Christ? Does the love of Christ compel you into action of good works which were prepared for you to walk in?

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. - Hebrews
 
benidict said:
i had a feeling you were waiting for him! lol! i cant wait either. my bigger brother is gonna kick your… well you know! lol!😃
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We have been PM. I think the TULIP knocked him out for awhile. We agreed that he should start a new TULIP thread, focusing exclusively on the T. I haven’t seen the thread yet… but maybe he waiting to catch his breath. I told him his only hope to win a TULIP debate is to become a Calvinist Catholic hybrid.
 
Dancelittleewok said:
For my part, there’s hard to see a “us” if he and I are unclear on where we stand.
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ok. sorry for that, ive been up all night on staff duty.lol! i meant what we may have simalar between Catholics and protestants. he can be pretty vaughe at times. but the similarities between Catholics and protestants are very few. it is as though we speak different languages sometimes. i think he actually may be trying to find a small bit of common ground that we all can agree on. 🙂
 
benidict said:
ok. sorry for that, ive been up all night on staff duty.lol! i meant what we may have simalar between Catholics and protestants. he can be pretty vaughe at times. but the similarities between Catholics and protestants are very few. it is as though we speak different languages sometimes. i think he actually may be trying to find a small bit of common ground that we all can agree on. 🙂
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Yes…no… maybe… when in doubt, go back to the OP. 😉
2nd_Adam said:
The sufficiency of Christ

I believe the essential difference between Protestants and Catholics is the work of Christ for sinners. It really has to do with the sufficiency of Christ. A Catholic brother posted on another thread that Christ is all sufficient. However, I believe the Protestant position is really about the sufficiency of Christ, and the Catholic view of the work of Christ is not the same. The Catholic position has a lower view of the work of Christ than Protestants in the disucssion of sufficiency.
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:rotfl:
2nd_Adam said:
We have been PM. I think the TULIP knocked him out for awhile. We agreed that he should start a new TULIP thread, focusing exclusively on the T. I haven’t seen the thread yet… but maybe he waiting to catch his breath. I told him his only hope to win a TULIP debate is to become a Calvinist Catholic hybrid.
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:rotfl:
 
2nd Adam, why haven’t you addressed Romans 11? Too inconvinant to your theology?
 
2nd_Adam said:
Thanks for your contribution and wisdom. This may be a great thread topic for you to continue with. What does it mean to enter the Sabbath rest found in Christ? Does the love of Christ compel you into action of good works which were prepared for you to walk in?

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. - Hebrews
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thank you, i have no problem with the sabbath, but scripture tells us Jesus was scolded by the pharisees for healing on the sabbath, which tells me there could be a time in any of our lives where we could be called to duty on the sabbath:)
 
2nd_Adam said:
We have been PM. I think the TULIP knocked him out for awhile. We agreed that he should start a new TULIP thread, focusing exclusively on the T. I haven’t seen the thread yet… but maybe he waiting to catch his breath. I told him his only hope to win a TULIP debate is to become a Calvinist Catholic hybrid.
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negative my friend. that will never happen. not possible to become a Catholic Calvinist hybrid. also i believe he has completly spanked you on calvinism, even if you are not convinced, it think the court of public opinion will side with him. lol! 😃
 
kempo1 said:
thank you, i have no problem with the sabbath, but scripture tells us Jesus was scolded by the pharisees for healing on the sabbath, which tells me there could be a time in any of our lives where we could be called to duty on the sabbath:)
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But there is a difference of the Sabbath day which is simply a picture, foreshadow, or type pointing to the true Sabbath rest found in Christ alone. 🙂 Have you entered that Sabbath rest found in Christ alone? Please read the posted verses in Hebrews again.
 
crazzeto said:
2nd Adam, why haven’t you addressed Romans 11? Too inconvinant to your theology?
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I’m sorry, I lost you my friend. Actually Romans 11 is my proof text for my belief in remnant theology!

…what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.” - Rom 11
 
benidict said:
negative my friend. that will never happen. not possible to become a Catholic Calvinist hybrid. also i believe he has completly spanked you on calvinism, even if you are not convinced, it think the court of public opinion will side with him. lol! 😃
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I forgot, Augustine is the original Catholic Calvinist hybrid. 😃 It’s important to note that Pope Benedict is Augustinian in thought and theology! Don’t forget, this is your homecourt. Try to debate on my homecourt and see what happens?

:ballspin:
 
2nd_Adam said:
I’m sorry, I lost you my friend. Actually Romans 11 is my proof text for my belief in remnant theology!

…what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.” - Rom 11
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But this thread isn’t about TULIP as you’ve said many times…Hmmmmmmm
 
Adam, it destorys TULIP. It proves definitively that salvation is not assured.
 
Dancelittleewok said:
I haven’t heard of that. What does that doctrine entail?
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A Tiptoe Through TULIP
by James Akin
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp

"The difference between the atonement’s sufficiency and its efficiency accounts for Paul’s statement that God is “the Savior of all men, especially those who believe.” [22] God is the Savior of all men because he arranged a sacrifice sufficient for all men. He is the Savior of those who believe in a special and superior sense because these have the sacrifice made efficacious for them. According to Aquinas, “[Christ] is the propitiation for our sins, efficaciously for some, but sufficiently for all, because the price of his blood is sufficient for the salvation of all; but it has its effect only in the elect.” [23]

“A Catholic also may say that, in going to the cross, Christ intended to make salvation possible for all men, but he did not intend to make salvation actual for all men–otherwise we would have to say that Christ went to the cross intending that all men would end up in heaven. This is clearly not the case. [24] A Catholic therefore may say that the atonement is limited in efficacy, if not in sufficiency, and that God intended it to be this way. [25] While a Catholic could not say that the atonement was limited in that it was made only for the elect, he could say that the atonement was limited in that God only intended it to be efficacious for the elect (although he intended it to be sufficient for all). [26]”
 
Dancelittleewok said:
A culturally Catholic sister (i.e. me) brought up many questions that you haven’t answered. Do you not grant me the same courtesy?
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I promise you that I will answer your questions at the right time.
2nd_Adam said:
Okay, now we are going to have to wait for my favorite brother guanaphore to post on this thread before I spill the beans.
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Originally Posted by benidict
yes it does but guanaphore totally whooped him on this, so he is attempting a new path to try. im kinda finding this interesting. and i think im beginning to see where hes going with this. i actually think he is looking at some things that unite us, for a change.
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2nd_Adam said:
This thread is not about TULIP! My dear Arminian Protestant brothers proclaim the same sufficiency of Christ that I do. And we know those Arminian Protestants try to crush in the TULIP too… in vain as well. 😃

Try to crush the TULIP on another thread!
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Based upon its presuppositions, Calvinism seems extremely well-reasoned and internally consistent.

Garbage in, garbage out, of course…but that is where we disagree.

My question is this: are you aware of any ECF’s who taught “Calvinism” prior to Calvin?

Or was this system novel with him?
 
Randy_Carson said:
Based upon its presuppositions, Calvinism seems extremely well-reasoned and internally consistent.

Garbage in, garbage out, of course…but that is where we disagree.

My question is this: are you aware of any ECF’s who taught “Calvinism” prior to Calvin?

Or was this system novel with him?
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This is not the “try to crush the TULIP thread”. Here’s the OP again:
2nd_Adam said:
The sufficiency of Christ

I believe the essential difference between Protestants and Catholics is the work of Christ for sinners. It really has to do with the sufficiency of Christ. A Catholic brother posted on another thread that Christ is all sufficient. However, I believe the Protestant position is really about the sufficiency of Christ, and the Catholic view of the work of Christ is not the same. The Catholic position has a lower view of the work of Christ than Protestants in the disucssion of sufficiency.
Click to expand...
 
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