The sufficiency of Christ

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What is the other one, a Chihuahua?

I do not know Zee at all, I haven’t even read many of his posts so I cannot say if he is a Christian or not. If he believes that Jesus is God, the 2rd person of the Trinity and places his faith in Him then I would embrace him as a brother in Christ. You really are trying to set me up on this one aren’t you?😃
 
You know, I spent almost 20 years as a Calvinist fruit inspector and it has been only in the last month that I have embraced Catholicism. With that said, I have a lot of habits and understandings that I need to jettison. One of those is my judgmental nature towards those who think differently than I do. Two months ago I would have had no problem telling you that I was going to heaven and I would have no problem identify those who weren’t, simply based upon their religious affiliations. I am trying hard to put all that aside and worry about me and my walk with Christ, no more fruit inspecting for me.
 
I guess you earned your way out of the dog house! However, you didn’t post if you consider Zee the Mormon as your brother in Christ. What’s your take on that one?
I certainly consider him to be my brother in Christ, even if he doesn’t! 🙂
 
What is the other one, a Chihuahua?

I do not know Zee at all, I haven’t even read many of his posts so I cannot say if he is a Christian or not. If he believes that Jesus is God, the 2rd person of the Trinity and places his faith in Him then I would embrace him as a brother in Christ. You really are trying to set me up on this one aren’t you.
No, not really. Zee the staunch Mormon was in the dog house with you. I think I’ll keep him there for a long time. Good luck figuring out my other dog. She’s a house dog who belongs to my wife. The Basset is my buddy who lives outside in the dog house.
 
Zee will remain in my dog house until he repents of the Mormon gospel and turns to the historic Jesus Christ as confirmed in the historic creeds.



The only way out Zee is through the historic living Jesus Christ.
 
I certainly consider him to be my brother in Christ, even if he doesn’t! 🙂
Thanks Zee—Some of my closest friends are LDS and I can tell you that they are some of the best people I have ever known, much better than I am.

It is not my business to determine who is “in” and who is “out”, that is Gods job. I am to walk as Christ did and love everyone and that is what I am trying to do.

I will embrace you as a brother and not worry about something that I am not the final determiner of.
 
I do not know Zee at all, I haven’t even read many of his posts so I cannot say if he is a Christian or not.
Allow me to assure you that I am! 🙂
If he believes that Jesus is God, …
I do! 🙂
… the 2rd person of the Trinity …
I do! 🙂
… and places his faith in Him …
I do! 🙂
… then I would embrace him as a brother in Christ.
You certainly can! 🙂
You really are trying to set me up on this one aren’t you? 😃
He does, he follows the ways of the evil one! 😃
 
Thanks Zee—Some of my closest friends are LDS and I can tell you that they are some of the best people I have ever known, much better than I am.

It is not my business to determine who is “in” and who is “out”, that is Gods job. I am to walk as Christ did and love everyone and that is what I am trying to do.

I will embrace you as a brother and not worry about something that I am not the final determiner of.
This thread is for you! 😃

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=397605

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

There is only room for one top dog (Best in Show). The Catholic Church and the Mormon Church both claim apostolic succession. In addition, both the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church claim to be the One True Church. 🤷
 
Allow me to assure you that I am! 🙂

I do! 🙂

I do! 🙂

I do! 🙂

You certainly can! 🙂

He does, he follows the ways of the evil one! 😃
Zee, I don’t know much about Mormonism. Could you tell me if, in your theology, the Father and Son are eternally uncreated creator of all that is?
 
Thanks Zee—Some of my closest friends are LDS and I can tell you that they are some of the best people I have ever known, much better than I am.

It is not my business to determine who is “in” and who is “out”, that is Gods job. I am to walk as Christ did and love everyone and that is what I am trying to do.

I will embrace you as a brother and not worry about something that I am not the final determiner of.
Thank you! Our Church admonishes us to follow the dictum of James and Paul:

James 1:

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

James 4:

17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Romans 2:

13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Galatians 6:

10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

Hebrews 13:

16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

The very thing that is anathema to Calvinists!
 
Zee, I don’t know much about Mormonism. Could you tell me if, in your theology, the Father and Son are eternally uncreated creator of all that is?
IMO… the best way to discern Mormonism is through the official LDS.org website.

mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-restoration-of-truth/the-restoration-of-truth

If you are Catholic, check out this Mormonism book on Catholic Answers written just for Catholics.

shop.catholic.com/home.php?cat=21&sort=orderby&sort_direction=0&page=2
 
The Catholic Church and the Mormon Church both claim apostolic succession. In addition, both the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church claim to be the One True Church. 🤷
Which means that there are only two of us. You are not even in the dog house! 🙂
 
I meant the Mormon Church and the Catholic Church. The rest don’t have a leg to stand on. That includes you! 🙂
I’m kind of surprised that you’re so strong on Catholicism, seeing how Mormonism apparently believes that the church was missing until she restored it. And if the CC has things right doctrinally, then why would we need another Church?-which is the same question we ask of Protestantism, of course.
 
Mind explaining to me how Calvinism isn’t self-refuting?
You’ve referenced in other threads that Adam and Eve had a free will but post-Fall, humanity became utterly depraved. If our Original sin–note it was not a mere declaration of sin but so bad it deformed us ontologically–then why would a mere declaration of righteousness been sufficient for something that is inwardly wrong?
Furthermore, if God declares a man whom is not inwardly righteous but declares him as such, doesn’t that make Him just?
Also, since we’ve established that humanity is ontologically totally depraved, what does that say about Jesus Christ who was both God and man? As a man, was God under the devil, having no choice but to sin continually and put the wrath upon Himself? No, Scripture tells us that He was alike in all ways but did not sin but using TULIP, God must sin as human.
As for forensic justification, whether God choose to look at Christ instead of us, there is still the real matter of sin. If it’s a declaration but not an inward change, then God’s plan for salvation failed. Man still reigns supreme.
Hence, Calvinism is not a higher view of God but only of man. He worships a God who cannot fix the problem of sin.
P.S. Is your wife’s dog a Colton de Tulear? They are quite rare but adorable and clownish!

http://www.rebelcreek.com/Liesl's%20Babies/Girl/Misc%20Sep%2021%20007.jpg

2nd Adam, please let Zee in…big eyes
 
You know, I spent almost 20 years as a Calvinist fruit inspector and it has been only in the last month that I have embraced Catholicism. With that said, I have a lot of habits and understandings that I need to jettison. One of those is my judgmental nature towards those who think differently than I do. Two months ago I would have had no problem telling you that I was going to heaven and I would have no problem identify those who weren’t, simply based upon their religious affiliations. I am trying hard to put all that aside and worry about me and my walk with Christ, no more fruit inspecting for me.
izoid, tell me a bit more about this “fruit inspector” business. My Dad, an anti-Catholic Baptist, uses this title with me from time to time…he says, “I believe we are called to be fruit inspectors”…and he uses it in context to demonstrate why Catholics are a mission field for evangelization. Does this title originate from Matthew 7:15ff? I’ve seen quite a few Calvinistic tendencies in Baptists, so I imagine this is yet another. Anyway, what can you briefly tell me about it…PM me if you’d rather not pull this off-topic. Thanks.
 
Catholics have a lower view of the sufficiency of Christ because they reject a forensic justification, the doctrine of imputation, penal substitution, and adoption through propitiation… leaving Catholics with a tendency to have fear and uncertainty of their eternal destination. Christ is sufficient for those who understand the truth of adoption through propitiation.
Here for the first time you have made a shy and tentative attempt to answer the central question that people have been asking you from the start of this thread. You could have done that from the beginning, and the ensuing discussion would have been a much more constructive one. Okay, these are terms that require explanation and clarification, if you expect Catholics to engage you in a meaningful discussion about them:

1. forensic justification
You have to explain what that means, and why do you think that Catholics do not accept it and Protestants do. What is “forensic justification”? Justification is a scriptural term, but forensic isn’t. You need to explain what you mean by that, and what is the scriptural justification for believing it.

2. the doctrine of imputation
Again you need to explain. The word “impute” (and its derivatives) occurs 15 times in the KJV Bible, both in the Old as well as in the New Testaments. I can’t believe that the Catholics don’t accept the plain meaning of the word as it occurs in the context of the scriptures in which it occurs. So if there are disagreements, I presume it must center on how they are verses are interpreted. So you need to explain what you think that means, and how the Catholics reject it, and why you think they shouldn’t

3. penal substitution
Not a scriptural term. Explanation please!

4. adoption through propitiation
Likewise. Tell us how you understand that, what you think it means, and how you think Catholics reject it.
leaving Catholics with a tendency to have fear and uncertainty of their eternal destination.
So you think you can be sure of your salvation, and that once saved always saved? But then how do you explain scriptures that suggest otherwise. Here is one:

Luke 12:

47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

The “servant” was an obvious believer. He was a servant of the master. He knew his master’s will, but “prepared not himself”. His failure was not in unbelief, but in action. Here is another:

James 1:

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

He is addressing this to believers, to members of the Church. He is telling them that just being “believers” isn’t good enough. They have to do something about it. Action is required, not just profession of belief. So how do you explain these then?
 
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