The sufficiency of Christ

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I’m kind of surprised that you’re so strong on Catholicism, seeing how Mormonism apparently believes that the church was missing until she restored it. And if the CC has things right doctrinally, then why would we need another Church?-which is the same question we ask of Protestantism, of course.
I respect the Catholic Church, and I think that many of its doctrines are correct. That is true of the Mormon Church, not just of me. The LDS Church has excellent relations with the Catholic Church in Utah. As far as the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism is concerned, most of the time I agree with the Catholic side. I support the doctrine that I consider to be right. If the Catholic Church teaches a doctrine that I disagree with, I say so; and if the Protestantism teaches a doctrine that I disagree with, I say so. As it happens, Calvinists, Evangelicals, and Baptists are staunch enemies not only of Mormonism, but also of Catholicism; whereas the Catholic Church has never actively fought against and opposed Mormonism. So it is natural that in a discussion of this kind I tend to take the side of the Catholic Church rather than Protestantism. Nevertheless, I support only the doctrine that I consider to be right; and as it turns out, in the theological areas that we are now discussing, Mormon doctrine agree with Catholic doctrine (for the most part), so that is the doctrine that I support.
 
I do have one critism of you zerinus, why do you make your picture so big I can barely get it all in:shrug:
That happens when you give your monitor an incorrect screen resolution. If you right-click on the desktop on your computer, a menu comes up that allows you to change the screen resolution to what it should be.
 
That happens when you give your monitor an incorrect screen resolution. If you right-click on the desktop on your computer, a menu comes up that allows you to change the screen resolution to what it should be.
My screen does fine with everything but you.
 
My screen does fine with everything but you.
Then you are the odd one out. In the past very few people have reported what you are experiencing, and when I have told them to fix the screen resolution they have reported that they have solved the problem, and thanked me for it. I still have their PMs in my mail box to prove it.
 
izoid, tell me a bit more about this “fruit inspector” business. My Dad, an anti-Catholic Baptist, uses this title with me from time to time…he says, “I believe we are called to be fruit inspectors”…and he uses it in context to demonstrate why Catholics are a mission field for evangelization. Does this title originate from Matthew 7:15ff? I’ve seen quite a few Calvinistic tendencies in Baptists, so I imagine this is yet another. Anyway, what can you briefly tell me about it…PM me if you’d rather not pull this off-topic. Thanks.
A “fruit inspector” is a protestant who evaluates another persons salvation based upon the fruits of their walk. Scripture speaks of the fruits of the believers walk, are they manifesting Christ like qualities in their life. It is very common to find this kind of behavior in the conservative branches of the protestant church. Some people feel it is their responsibility to judge another persons salvation based upon their actions. And they say they don’t believe that works saves you. 🤷 When they don’t see what they determine to be the fruit of conversion they make it their job to evangelize those people.
 
A “fruit inspector” is a protestant who evaluates another persons salvation based upon the fruits of their walk. Scripture speaks of the fruits of the believers walk, are they manifesting Christ like qualities in their life. It is very common to find this kind of behavior in the conservative branches of the protestant church. Some people feel it is their responsibility to judge another persons salvation based upon their actions. And they say they don’t believe that works saves you. 🤷 When they don’t see what they determine to be the fruit of conversion they make it their job to evangelize those people.
Reformed Christians are not fruit inspectors. That’s an Arminian trait based on their theology.
 
Thanks Zee—Some of my closest friends are LDS and I can tell you that they are some of the best people I have ever known, much better than I am.

It is not my business to determine who is “in” and who is “out”, that is Gods job. I am to walk as Christ did and love everyone and that is what I am trying to do.

I will embrace you as a brother and not worry about something that I am not the final determiner of.
exactly what i told 2nd izoid. he says by our view that we are outside the bounds of the magestirium. in light of the catachism and long talks with my priest, id have to disagree with 2nd on this. i dont want to determine whos in or out either. its not my job. peace be with you.🙂
 
exactly what i told 2nd izoid. he says by our view that we are outside the bounds of the magestirium. in light of the catachism and long talks with my priest, id have to disagree with 2nd on this. i dont want to determine whos in or out either. its not my job. peace be with you.🙂
We are unable to read anyone’s heart to know their true status. There are goats who hold to orthodoxy too. All we can do is discern their doctrine and base our fellowship on what they believe to be true. Now Zee is a staunch Mormon who holds to the official LDS teachings. Therefore, you cannot fellowship with those who reject the essentials of the Christian Faith as brothers and sisters in Christ. Truth is not a negotiable item which you can throw out for the sake of false unity and fellowship.

But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” - Jesus
 
I respect the Catholic Church, and I think that many of its doctrines are correct. That is true of the Mormon Church, not just of me. The LDS Church has excellent relations with the Catholic Church in Utah. As far as the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism is concerned, most of the time I agree with the Catholic side. I support the doctrine that I consider to be right. If the Catholic Church teaches a doctrine that I disagree with, I say so; and if the Protestantism teaches a doctrine that I disagree with, I say so. As it happens, Calvinists, Evangelicals, and Baptists are staunch enemies not only of Mormonism, but also of Catholicism; whereas the Catholic Church has never actively fought against and opposed Mormonism. So it is natural that in a discussion of this kind I tend to take the side of the Catholic Church rather than Protestantism. Nevertheless, I support only the doctrine that I consider to be right; and as it turns out, in the theological areas that we are now discussing, Mormon doctrine agree with Catholic doctrine (for the most part), so that is the doctrine that I support.
hi brother z. i think relations between Catholics and Mormons are very good throughout the u.s. not just utah. however, i must confess i do love utah and the scenery. do you have room for one more Catholic in utah if i decide to move there? utah 2nd UTAH! not the mormon church. lets not misinterpret yet again.😃
 
We are unable to read anyone’s heart to know their true status. All we can do is discern their doctrine and base our fellowship on what they believe to be true. Now Zee is a staunch Mormon who holds to the official LDS teachings. Therefore, you cannot fellowship with those who reject the essentials of the Christian Faith as brothers and sisters in Christ. Truth is not a negotiable item which you can throw out for the sake of false unity and fellowship.
interesting. Jesus fellowshipped with tax collecters and prostitutes. you also have fellowshipped with mormons in the past, by your own admission. on the sports field and in hawaii. so how when i have the example of Jesus, and your own example can i not fellowship with mormons and have a nice dinner with them for example. Jesus also fellowshipped with those of the pharrisees even tho they were not of his doctrine. you would get alot further with honey instead of vinager. so if you could please, let z out of the dog house;)
 
hi brother z. i think relations between Catholics and Mormons are very good throughout the u.s. not just utah. however, i must confess i do love utah and the scenery. do you have room for one more Catholic in utah if i decide to move there? utah 2nd UTAH! not the mormon church. lets not misinterpret yet again.😃
I find this Catholic and Mormon ungodly unity to be quite insightful. I used to see this Cahtolic and Mormon unity on world religion forum sites. I would say this ungodly fellowship between Catholic Christians and Mormons is based on Catholics not having a solid Scripture discerment of the spirits. Joseph Smith was an enemy of the cross, yet you continue to insist of fellowshiping with those who follow the false prophet, and preach another gospel which is no gospel at all (Gal 1). Either the church has been apostate for the last 1,950 years and we are both apostate, or Mormons are false teachers.

Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said,

“I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
Therefore go out from their midst,
and be separate from them, says the Lord,
and touch no unclean thing;
then I will welcome you,
and I will be a father to you,
and you shall be sons and daughters to me,
says the Lord Almighty.”
2 Cor 6

Please buy the Catholic Answers book on Mormonism!

When Mormons Call

Have you ever answered your front door to see two young men dressed in white shirts and black ties wanting to talk to you about Jesus Christ? They’re part of the legions of well-trained Mormon missionaries who go all over the world spreading the false doctrine of Mormonism. Finally, a handy book has been written just for Catholics who want to know what to say to these polite but misinformed young men. In this brief, easy-to-read handbook, you’ll find everything you need to rebut what the missionaries are trained to say to you. Isaiah Bennett, a former Catholic priest who converted to Mormonism and then reconverted to the Catholic faith, wrote this book. His inside knowledge of Mormonism is indispensable in answering the many errors and contradictions of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

shop.catholic.com/home.php?cat=21&sort=orderby&sort_direction=0&page=2
 
hi brother z. i think relations between Catholics and Mormons are very good throughout the u.s. not just utah.
I entirely agree. I think that is because they have a lot that is in common.
however, i must confess i do love utah and the scenery. do you have room for one more Catholic in utah if i decide to move there? utah 2nd UTAH! not the mormon church. lets not misinterpret yet again.😃
You are very welcome in Utah, not only by the large community of Catholics who live there, but even more so by your hosts the Mormons! 🙂 Actually, Utah draws many migrants who are particularly attracted by the clean environment it provides for families to live in, compared to much of the rest of the US.
 
interesting. Jesus fellowshipped with tax collecters and prostitutes. you also have fellowshipped with mormons in the past, by your own admission. on the sports field and in hawaii. so how when i have the example of Jesus, and your own example can i not fellowship with mormons and have a nice dinner with them for example. Jesus also fellowshipped with those of the pharrisees even tho they were not of his doctrine. you would get alot further with honey instead of vinager. so if you could please, let z out of the dog house;)
His real problem is somewhere else. He doesn’t like my challenging his Calvinist theology, because I am good at it, and he has no answer against it! 😃
 
This, from Augustines’ “On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants”, spells out much regarding his thoughts on salvation-that we’re saved and at the same time* being *saved -as a process, not yet complete until sin is completely eliminated.

Chapter 10 [VIII.]— Perfection, When to Be Realized.

Our full adoption, then, as children, is to happen at the redemption of our body. It is therefore the first-fruits of the Spirit which we now possess, whence we are already really become the children of God; for the rest, indeed, as it is by hope that we are saved and renewed, so are we the children of God. But inasmuch as we are not yet actually saved, we are also not yet fully renewed, nor yet also fully sons of God, but children of the world. We are therefore advancing in renewal and holiness of life—and it is by this that we are children of God, and by this also we cannot commit sin—until at last the whole of that by which we are kept as yet children of this world is changed into this—for it is owing to this that we are as yet able to sin. Hence it comes to pass that whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; 1 John 3:9 and as well, if we were to say that we have no sin, we should deceive ourselves, and the truth would not be in us. 1 John 1:8 There shall be then an end put to that within us which keeps us children of the flesh and of the world; while that other shall be perfected which makes us the children of God, and renews us by His Spirit. Accordingly the same John says, Beloved, now are we the sons of God; and it does not yet appear what we shall be. 1 John 3:2 Now what means this variety in the expressions, we are, and we shall be, but this — we are in hope, we shall be in reality? For he goes on to say, We know that when He shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2 We have therefore even now begun to be like Him, having the first-fruits of the Spirit; but yet we are still unlike Him, by reason of the remainders of the old nature. In as far, then, as we are like Him, in so far are we, by the regenerating Spirit, sons of God; but in as far as we are unlike Him, in so far are we the children of the flesh and of the world. On the one side, we cannot commit sin; but, on the other, if we say that we have no sin, we only deceive ourselves—until we pass entirely into the adoption, and the sinner be no more, and you look for his place and find it not.
 
hi dancelittleewok. that is an adorable puppy! is it yours? never heard of this breed before. i like pit bulls myself. but anything with fur, four legs and barks is wonderful:)
Nope, it’s a Coton le Tulear–one of the rarer dog breeds. I have a Chihuahua mix actually. I found this online when looking for puppies with “C” breeds. Cotons actually grow up all white and they are quite fun!

Anyway, yet another post unanswered: 2ndAdam, see post 220 and 371. But on the bright side after 20 plus pages Adam answered the one on the first page! 😃
 
I entirely agree. I think that is because they have a lot that is in common.

You are very welcome in Utah, not only by the large community of Catholics who live there, but even more so by your hosts the Mormons! 🙂 Actually, Utah draws many migrants who are particularly attracted by the clean environment it provides for families to live in, compared to much of the rest of the US.
very good brother z. if i can make it out of the military alive, i shall definitly look into moving to utah. ogden looks like a real possibility. maybe i could get a job at the big kimberly clark plant there. right underneath that beautiful mountain. peace be with you.🙂
 
Nope, it’s a Coton le Tulear–one of the rarer dog breeds. I have a Chihuahua mix actually. I found this online when looking for puppies with “C” breeds. Cotons actually grow up all white and they are quite fun!

Anyway, yet another post unanswered: 2ndAdam, see post 220 and 371. But on the bright side after 20 plus pages Adam answered the one on the first page! 😃
i doubt id ever be able to afford one then.lol! but chihuahuas are very cute to. miss my pit bull. his name is loki. had to give him up when i joined the army. luckily my best friend took him so i get to play with him when i go home. hes up to 95 lbs of solid muscle! and an extremly sweet disposition. loves everything and every body. especially cats. have caught him snuggled up with them asleep sometimes! glad you finally had one question answered. maybe theres hope. his hearts in the right place, just gets going too many ways sometimes… dont we all:D peace be with you. and God bless.
 
Reformed Christians are not fruit inspectors. That’s an Arminian trait based on their theology.
I have never been in an Arminian based church and I can assure you there have been many a fruit inspector in the churches, all Calvinist, that I have been associated with.
 
I find this Catholic and Mormon ungodly unity to be quite insightful.
LOL! 😃 Okay, I just had to pick myself off the floor again after spending another half an hour :rotfl: Thank you for being so entertaining.
I used to see this Cahtolic and Mormon unity on world religion forum sites. I would say this ungodly fellowship between Catholic Christians and Mormons is based on Catholics not having a solid Scripture discerment of the spirits. Joseph Smith was an enemy of the cross, yet you continue to insist of fellowshiping with those who follow the false prophet, and preach another gospel which is no gospel at all (Gal 1). Either the church has been apostate for the last 1,950 years and we are both apostate, or Mormons are false teachers.
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said,
“I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
Therefore go out from their midst,
and be separate from them, says the Lord,
and touch no unclean thing;
then I will welcome you,
and I will be a father to you,
and you shall be sons and daughters to me,
says the Lord Almighty.”
2 Cor 6
Please buy the Catholic Answers book on Mormonism!
Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. Your style of conversation reminds me of these verses:

2 Peter:

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Jude 1:

8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

I think they apply to you. Did you miss my post #416 by any chance?
 
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