The sufficiency of Christ

[zerinus]

I think it would be wise to take anything Tweety claims to believe as “Catholic” with caution. She has made it clear that her faith is not Catholic.

However, she is correct in this case. The Catholic Church can only recognize those who are validly baptized (Triune) as separated brothers and sisters.

Her statement had been that the CC does not recognize Mormonism to be a Christian religion. I am not convinced that not recognizing Mormon baptisms by the RCC translates into not recognizing it as a Christian religion. A separate declaration would be required it seems to bring that into effect. For your information, the Mormon Church has never recognized the baptisms of any church other than its own; but that does not mean that we do not consider them to be Christian churches. The Catholic Church is a Christian church; but we don’t believe it has a valid baptism. If the Catholic Church believes that Mormonism is not a Christian religion at all, then they need to make another declaration to that effect, which as far as I know they have not done.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I think you probably have a different definition of “free will” than the Apostles used.

I agree, you are correct. the only way that one could possibly embrace such grievious errors is to depart from the Apostolic Teaching, and “stay within the Scriptures for Truth”. In doing this, each reader makes himself his own God, or teaching authority. One does not have to reconcile himself with what God has already revealed to the Church.

Check out your pattern brother. You speak as if you are infallibly speaking for the Apostles. I find that very insightful in our discussions. The Apostles have authoritatively spoken as recorded in Sacred Scriptures. Does the Catholic Church have additional writings of the Apostles which they consider in par with Sacred Scriptures? We both know Apostolic Succession does not claim a succession of Apostles. I believe it is wiser to base the truth of Christianity on the actual writings of the Apostles. We have it in Sacred Scriptures. Heck, the Apostle Paul wrote half of the New Testament! So, when you claim to believe in what the Apostles taught, then please quote from the Apostles. :knight2::slapfight: :blackeye::hug1::harp:

 

[tweetymom]

I think it would be wise to take anything Tweety claims to believe as “Catholic” with caution. She has made it clear that her faith is not Catholic.

However, she is correct in this case. The Catholic Church can only recognize those who are validly baptized (Triune) as separated brothers and sisters.

You know that you are continually calling me a liar, not in those words but implying and making unkind remarks about me in every thread that i see. I think that I shall report you and I also think that you need to clean up your act.

 

[zerinus]

You are confusing things, 2nd. God loves the whole world. He loved the world so much, He gave His only begotten Son to save them from their sins. After He created man, He looked upon him and called it “good”. God’s justice is part of His love, not opposed to it. When you say “love or wrath”, it seems that you see these as being opposed but they are not. God loves all those He creates. Love should not be equated with salvation, either.

You are forgetting something. He believes that Jesus died to save the elect only. He did not die for everyone!

 

[zerinus]

I’ve never prohibited Zee the Mormon from posting. Who am I to allow or disallow someone from freely posting? However, I can exercise my free will choice to ignore whom I want to.

You try to “ignore” anyone whose arguments you are not able to refute. izoid is not a Mormon, why have you decided to “ignore” him? That is because he is a former Calvinist who knows all your sleight of hind, and knows how to refute your false arguments. Your “ignoring” people, however, won’t get you off the hook. I for one don’t intend to “ignore” you, even if you ignore me. I will follow your posts, and respond to them as appropriate whether you like it or not!

 

[zerinus]

The debate isn’t going on within the CC. Which historic creeds are you referring to?

Nicely put! Be careful. If are too clever he might put you on the “ignore” list too!

 

[2nd_Adam]

The debate isn’t going on within the CC. Which historic creeds are you referring to?

I wish that I was more knowledgeable on the historic creeds. However, when you go to Reformed.org link, you will see our common creeds that are taught in many Reformed churches.

reformed.org/documents/index.html

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I wish that I was more knowledgeable on the historic creeds. However, when you go to Reformed.org link, you will see our common creeds that are taught in many Reformed churches.

reformed.org/documents/index.html

So you made a claim that you’re not knowledgeable about?

 

[2nd_Adam]

2ndAdam, this butchers what guanaphore has said and you know it. I will not stand by while you bear false witness against me and my Catholic friends. As I’ve said before, treating Zee or any other non-Catholic here with dignity as a human being is NOT equatable for choosing “another gospel” or not thinking that non-Christian faiths aren’t the mission field; A simple cursory view in any Mormon themed thread would show you that, but you’d rather present a straw men against a non-issue rather than answer the real questions given to you by Catholics about your view of sufficiency of Christ.

Guanaphore said:

He said again:

Gee said in yet another example:

I find izoid’s words directed to you, found in the “Calvinism for my Catholic siblings” which earned him a dog house medal from you, are especially poignant:

In my previous posts, I said that I understood the Calvinism view of justification but I don’t believe it. Please don’t use my words as understanding to mean “Credo…Calvinism.” If you use my post against my Catholic faith, against my Catholic brothers and sisters, you will be called on it. I’ve seen it done before and am merely giving you a cautionary note.

Please answer post 220 and Shannon’s question about the sufficiency of Scripture. Latter is especially relevant because you take this as a given but it is still unproven.

And the spiritual battle continues on Catholic Answers. At least Protestants and Catholics no longer burn each other at the stake. Just remember, our common enemy is Satan and not each other.

:knight1::slapfight::blackeye: :stretcher::crutches::grouphug::harp:

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. - Paul

Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. - Paul

 

[Dancelittleewok]

And the spiritual battle continues on Catholic Answers. At least Protestants and Catholics no longer burn each other at the stake. Just remember, our common enemy is Satan.

:knight1::slapfight::blackeye: :stretcher::crutches::grouphug::harp:

I am aware. I’d like you to apologize to Gee for your misrepresentation of his post.

Need a reminder about the tongue from scripture:

6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is placed among our members, which defileth the whole body, and inflameth the wheel of our nativity, being set on fire by hell. 7 For every nature of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of the rest, is tamed, and hath been tamed, by the nature of man: 8 But the tongue no man can tame, an unquiet evil, full of deadly poison. 9 By it we bless God and the Father: and by it we curse men, who are made after the likeness of God. 10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. (James 3:6-10, DR)

13 Who is a wise man, and endued with knowledge among you? Let him shew, by a good conversation, his work in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter zeal, and there be contentions in your hearts; glory not, and be not liars against the truth. 15 For this is not wisdom, descending from above: but earthly, sensual, devilish. (James 3: 13, 14)

 

[2nd_Adam]

I am aware. I’d like you to apologize to Gee for your misrepresentation of his post.

Are you speaking about guanophore or Zee? FYI - Guanophore and I are good old friends with a long history together. If Guanophore think’s that I sinned against him, he will let me know. Now if you mean Zee, I try to speak the truth in love to Zee so that he would repent of proclaiming the Mormon gospel and turn to the historic Jesus Christ for reconcilation with God. The biblical gospel divides my friend.

Triumph in Christ

When I came to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ, even though a door was opened for me in the Lord, my spirit was not at rest because I did not find my brother Titus there. So I took leave of them and went on to Macedonia.

But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things? For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God’s word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ. - Paul

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Are you speaking about guanophore or Zee? FYI - Guanophore and I are good old friends with a long history together. If Guanophore think’s that I sinned against him, he will let me know. Now if you mean Zee, I try to speak the truth in love to Zee so that he would repent of proclaiming the Mormon gospel and turn to the historic Jesus Christ for reconcilation with God.

You know who. I referenced Guanophore’s words in my posts.

 

[2nd_Adam]

You know who. I referenced Guanophore’s words in my posts.

What is not done in faith is sin. I also try to speak the truth in love with my brother Guanophore in faith. I’m not sure how you think I have intentionally distorted a post of his. Do you mind showing me what you are referencing? BTW, Guanphore and I exchange PM too. I think Guanophore can defend himself very well.

 

[2nd_Adam]

So you made a claim that you’re not knowledgeable about?

No, not really… because I consider myself to be a creedal Christian. I just spend more of my time studying the Scriptures, but stay within orthodoxy as definined in the historic creeds. How do you determine orthodoxy? Even the historic Protestant confessions such as the Westminster Confession of Faith and London Baptist of Faith of 1689 is an understanding of sola scriptura within the historic creeds.

The Protestant Catholic divide is really about justification and authority. We share the same orthodoxy in most of the major doctrines of the Christian Faith. Mormons reject historic doctrines in which we share as Protestants and Catholics; therefore, the Magestrium receives Protestants as seperated siblings in Christ.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

What is not done in faith is sin. I also try to speak the truth in love with my brother Guanophore in faith. I’m not sure how you think I have intentionally distorted a post of his. Do you mind showing me what you are referencing? BTW, Guanphore and I exchange PM too. I think Guanophore can defend himself very well.

I’ve already answered these questions in 555. I’m glad you and Gee are talking and I’m aware he can defend himself. Furthermore, I did not say otherwise.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I’ve already answered these questions in 555. I’m glad you and Gee are talking and I’m aware he can defend himself. Furthermore, I did not say otherwise.

So, what’s your beef? I will try to answer it before leaving for the day.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

So, what’s your beef? I will try to answer it before leaving for the day.

My beef? Read 555. I don’t appreciate my Catholic friends or my faith being poorly misrepresented especially when it has been corrected a great many times. I don’t know about you but I was taught that such actions demanded an apology. If you cannot do so, then fine but I’m not the only one you will have to answer at the end of your life.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I’m glad you are able to understand our essential differences in regards to a forensic justification, imputation and infused grace for justification. They are the historic divide between us. I have no idea how a Catholic can truly know the peace of God, or enter the Sabbath rest found in Christ alone with a Catholic view of justification. I don’t consider the official Catholic view to be damnable, but I sure believe it truly robs the Catholic Christian’s joy and affection for God in what He has done for us in Christ. And you guys know that is the bottom line. Do you really see a great love of God for what He has done for wretched sinners like me and you in the Catholic Church? Or do you see a competing affection for Mary, the Saints, the Eucharist, and the Catholic Church Herself as compared to God Himself? I’m just laying it out as honestly as I can. We have been saved to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. Does Catholic theology enable us or inhibit us from doing what we were created to do. If anyone who is in Christ wants to grow in your love for God, please study this statement: “Adoption through Propitiation” for they are the great yardsticks of God’s love for me and you…

If we are done with the family sibling fighting that is irrelevant to the thread topic, please let’s continue with our discussion above.

:slapfight::blackeye: - the goal is this :hug1::harp:

 

[2nd_Adam]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
I’ve seen an obvious pattern with you brother. You like to claim that when you post a position that is opposite than mine, you claim it to be what the Apostles taught. Well, you can claim whatever you want, but that claim does not make it true. We both know what the Apostles truly taught is recorded in Sacred Scripture. We don’t live in the dark ages and the Holy Scriptures is available for all to read for themselves. That’s is the reason for the Protestant Reformation, returning to the truths of the Scriptures. If you don’t think Muslim, Jews, and Mormons are the mission field, please read the book of Acts, Romans, and Galatians to see what the Apostles truly believed. Jesus clearly called the physical seed of Abraham to Himself for life, for those Jews who do not have Jesus as the Messiah, Jesus said that Satan is their Father. Now, let’s see if we can get back to the thread topic in regards to the sufficiency of Christ for me and you.

2ndAdam, this butchers what guanaphore has said and you know it. I will not stand by while you bear false witness against me and my Catholic friends. As I’ve said before, treating Zee or any other non-Catholic here with dignity as a human being is NOT equatable for choosing “another gospel” or not thinking that non-Christian faiths aren’t the mission field; A simple cursory view in any Mormon themed thread would show you that, but you’d rather present a straw men against a non-issue rather than answer the real questions given to you by Catholics about your view of sufficiency of Christ.

Guanaphore said:

He said again:

Gee said in yet another example:

I find izoid’s words directed to you, found in the “Calvinism for my Catholic siblings” which earned him a dog house medal from you, are especially poignant:

In my previous posts, I said that I understood the Calvinism view of justification but I don’t believe it. Please don’t use my words as understanding to mean “Credo…Calvinism.” If you use my post against my Catholic faith, against my Catholic brothers and sisters, you will be called on it. I’ve seen it done before and am merely giving you a cautionary note.

Please answer post 220 and Shannon’s question about the sufficiency of Scripture. Latter is especially relevant because you take this as a given but it is still unproven.

I still have no idea what you are talking about? Guan likes to post with some kind of apostolic authority, stating that his position is what the Apostles believed and taught. I simply say that is a false claim since what the Apostles actually taught is recorded in the Scriptures.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I still have no idea what you are talking about? Guan likes to post with some kind of apostolic authority, stating that his position is what the Apostles believed and taught. I simply say that is a false claim since what the Apostles actually taught is recorded in the Scriptures.

My issue was with the Mormon issues as you’ve brought up hence why it was in bold for easier understanding. Yes, you brought up the Apostles, but that as well: “If you don’t think…” in regards to Guan’s post and used his actual posts that he did think otherwise.