"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

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Rocket_Man said:
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
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Again, Catholics respond, “Amen!”

St. Augustine argues that God is said to harden men’s hearts, not by causing their wickedness, but by not bestowing on them them the free gift of his grace, by which they become hardened by their own perverse will.

God does not will anyone, nor predestine anyone, to eternal damnation.
 
PRmerger said:
Again, Catholics respond, “Amen!”

St. Augustine argues that God is said to harden men’s hearts, not by causing their wickedness, but by not bestowing on them them the free gift of his grace, by which they become hardened by their own perverse will.

God does not will anyone, nor predestine anyone, to eternal damnation.
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Is God unjust or unloving when He does not bestow His free gift grace. Absolutely Not!
 
Rocket_Man said:
What if, He does not save some to awaken our understanding of the magnitude of the gift we received in sending His only begotten Son.
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Such a concept is clearly refuted in the Holy Scriptures, in addition to being contrary to the revelation of God of Himself.
 
izoid said:
I don’t know if you are aware of it or not but the winking thumbs up guy was used to indicate that I was giving you a hard time.

The reality of it is that whenever we speak with a protestant we really have no idea what that person believes or represents. There are many branches of Presbyterians, Baptists, Anglican, Methodist, Lutheran, Reformed, etc…and they all have conservative branches and liberal branches. The label of protestant means very little when it comes to doctrine.

I will remind you of an earlier post in which you claim to be Calvinist but disagree with Calvin on his views of the Catholic Church, what does this mean when determining your theology? You say you are refomed but attend a baptist church, what does this mean? You say your baptist minister is not reformed enough in his theology of the Eucharist, what does this mean? You then say that you don’t agree with Calvin on the Eucharist, but it is Calvin that developed reformed theology, the theology you wish your current Baptist pastor professed. Can you see why one may be confused when talking with you?

This is not an attack Adam. How is anyone, yourself included able to truly discern what a given protestant believes? It is a hodge podge of different theologies custom blended to fit ones own desires. At least when you speak with a Catholic that holds firm to the teachings of the Church you know what you are getting into.
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Thanks Iz for this excellent summation and point. It very well organizes what is confusing, and why. It also indirectly explains why it is so counter-productive when people claim to be Catholic when they are not. 👍
 
Rocket_Man said:
Is God unjust or unloving when He does not bestow His free gift grace. Absolutely Not!
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God sheds His grace abroad upon all. For any who call upon His name, there is sufficient grace for salvation, for He does not desire that any should perish in their sins.
 
guanophore said:
Amen means “right on!”. They mean what the Catholic Apostle who wrote them wanted them to mean 👍
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What do they mean to you guan, in the way the Catholic Apostle wrote them? Explain to me the meaning of the last two verses.

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
 
Rocket_Man said:
What do they mean to you guan, in the way the Catholic Apostle wrote them? Explain to me the meaning of the last two verses.

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
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Here is the NAB commentary has to say about it:

The apostle responds to the objection that if God rules over faith through the principle of divine election, God cannot then accuse unbelievers of sin (Rom 9:19)

For Paul, this objection is in the last analysis a manifestation of human insolence, and his “answer” is less an explanation of God’s ways than the rejection of an argument that places humanity on a level with God.

At the same time, Paul shows that God is far less arbitrary than appearances suggest, for God endures with much patience (Rom 9:22) a person like the Pharaoh of the Exodus
 
How about moving your conversation over on this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=405340

Can you trust the OP author on your thread? In addition, you are on a two start thread in which I believe you were set-up to fall in regards to the OP. I think this new thread has a more trustworthy OP author, as well as a more balanced and fair shake for you. The new thread is currently a 5 Star one too!
 
Rocket_Man said:
What is the meaning of these scriptures to a Catholic “Amen”?
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It does not say that God predetermines certain people to hell. It explains that God hardens the hearts of those who choose to disbelieve as a punishment for their sin of unbelief. And God will use even the unfaithful ones, whose hearts are hardened, to punish sinners and manifest His glory. God’s will can never be thwarted.
 
Rocket_Man said:
What do they mean to you guan, in the way the Catholic Apostle wrote them? Explain to me the meaning of the last two verses.

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
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These verses are in the context of the Apostles explanation to the Gentiles of how they are grafted into Christ. Jesus came to the Jews, but they did not receive Him. He endured their rejection, a fruit of their hearts, which are turned away from God. He then opened the kingdom to the Gentiles - Cornelius and his household being the firstfruit from among them.
 
guanophore said:
These verses are in the context of the Apostles explanation to the Gentiles of how they are grafted into Christ. Jesus came to the Jews, but they did not receive Him. He endured their rejection, a fruit of their hearts, which are turned away from God. He then opened the kingdom to the Gentiles - Cornelius and his household being the firstfruit from among them.
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**guan,

I see these verses as a continuation of Paul justifying God’s sovereignty in choosing the children of promise from within Israel. **

*22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory*

**The first being “vessels of wrath fitted to destruction” is referring to those like Pharaoh, where Paul also wrote in verse 17, “Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.” The second verse is referring to the children of promise knowing the riches of God’s glory by the hardening of those like Pharoah.

I see a picture of Moses and all the children of the promise looking back into the waters of the Red Sea from the safety of shore. And it’s a song we can all sing together! **

*Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.

The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him.

The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

Pharaoh’s chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.

The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.

Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble.

And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.

The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.

Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters.

Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?

Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.

Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.

The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina.

Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.

Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.

Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O LORD, which thy hands have established.

The LORD shall reign for ever and ever.

For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them; but the children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea.*

Do you also see it guan? A big Catholic Amen?
 
Rocket_Man said:
**guan,

I see these verses as a continuation of Paul justifying God’s sovereignty in choosing the children of promise from within Israel. **

The first being “vessels of wrath fitted to destruction” is referring to those like Pharaoh, where Paul also wrote in verse 17, “Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.” The second verse is referring to the children of promise knowing the riches of God’s glory by the hardening of those like Pharoah.

Do you also see it guan? A big Catholic Amen?

Yes, of course we give a big Catholic Amen! to that, Rocket. You’re presenting a very Catholic view of the Scriptures there. 👍
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PRmerger said:
Yes, of course we give a big Catholic Amen! to that, Rocket. You’re presenting a very Catholic view of the Scriptures there. 👍
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*Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?

Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.

Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation*.

The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina.

Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.

Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.

Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O LORD, which thy hands have established.

*Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. *
 
Rocket_Man said:
*Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?

Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.

Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.

The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina.

Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.

Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.

Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O LORD, which thy hands have established.*
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Amen, brother, Amen!
 
PRmerger said:
Right back at 'cha, Rocket! 👍
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Did you know that having received twelve years of Catholic education, I never once had a Bible 101 class? A dead baptism I did recieve, but never that which could bring a man to life through the Spirit.
 
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