"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[izoid]

I agree, the full spectrum of God’s love in our limited understanding. I just finished reading Job. It seems to me that He did allow Job to suffer to prove a point? Does this make God unjust?

Was Job condemned to an eternity of separation from God?

We all are allowed to suffer. Suffering is an essential part of our development as Christians.

The difference between suffering and eternal condemnation is huge though.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Was Job condemned to an eternity of separation from God?

We all are allowed to suffer. Suffering is an essential part of our development as Christians.

The difference between suffering and eternal condemnation is huge though.

My question was whether you thought God allowing Job to suffer was unjust?

 

[izoid]

That’s another slander my friend. I’m not sure if you posted that with knowledge or ignorance. Conservative fundamental churches are like the church you attended:

I know you attended Jerry Fallwell’s church with the moral majority, Christian coalition and right wing political agenda. Reformed Churches are much more Christ-centered and gospel centered.

I don’t know if you are aware of it or not but the winking thumbs up guy was used to indicate that I was giving you a hard time.

The reality of it is that whenever we speak with a protestant we really have no idea what that person believes or represents. There are many branches of Presbyterians, Baptists, Anglican, Methodist, Lutheran, Reformed, etc…and they all have conservative branches and liberal branches. The label of protestant means very little when it comes to doctrine.

I will remind you of an earlier post in which you claim to be Calvinist but disagree with Calvin on his views of the Catholic Church, what does this mean when determining your theology? You say you are refomed but attend a baptist church, what does this mean? You say your baptist minister is not reformed enough in his theology of the Eucharist, what does this mean? You then say that you don’t agree with Calvin on the Eucharist, but it is Calvin that developed reformed theology, the theology you wish your current Baptist pastor professed. Can you see why one may be confused when talking with you?

This is not an attack Adam. How is anyone, yourself included able to truly discern what a given protestant believes? It is a hodge podge of different theologies custom blended to fit ones own desires. At least when you speak with a Catholic that holds firm to the teachings of the Church you know what you are getting into.

 

[izoid]

My question was whether you thought God allowing Job to suffer was unjust?

I think I answered it.

Suffering is an important part of our development as Christians. It is good and healthy for us. It is actually a gift, no injustice at all.

 

[Rocket_Man]

I think I answered it.

Suffering is an important part of our development as Christians. It is good and healthy for us. It is actually a gift, no injustice at all.

What did Job learn through His suffering?

 

[2nd_Adam]

I don’t know if you are aware of it or not but the winking thumbs up guy was used to indicate that I was giving you a hard time.

The reality of it is that whenever we speak with a protestant we really have no idea what that person believes or represents. There are many branches of Presbyterians, Baptists, Anglican, Methodist, Lutheran, Reformed, etc…and they all have conservative branches and liberal branches. The label of protestant means very little when it comes to doctrine.

I will remind you of an earlier post in which you claim to be Calvinist but disagree with Calvin on his views of the Catholic Church, what does this mean when determining your theology? You say you are refomed but attend a baptist church, what does this mean? You say your baptist minister is not reformed enough in his theology of the Eucharist, what does this mean? You then say that you don’t agree with Calvin on the Eucharist, but it is Calvin that developed reformed theology, the theology you wish your current Baptist pastor professed. Can you see why one may be confused when talking with you?

This is not an attack Adam. How is anyone, yourself included able to truly discern what a given protestant believes? It is a hodge podge of different theologies custom blended to fit ones own desires. At least when you speak with a Catholic that holds firm to the teachings of the Church you know what you are getting into.

I am not proclaiming John Calvin, nor am I pointing to the Reformed Church as the savior. Can you say that about your postings about the Catholic Church? We as fellow Christians know who to point to.

“Unity in essential things, freedom in nonessential things, and charity in all things.”

We are not sure if Augustine actual said this, but it’s a good rule to go by.

 

[izoid]

I am not proclaiming John Calvin, nor am I pointing to the Reformed Church as the savior. Can you say that about your postings about the Catholic Church? We as fellow Christians know who to point to.

“Unity in essential things, freedom in nonessential things, and charity in all things.”

We are not sure if Augustine actual said this, but it’s a good rule to go by.

Charity in all things…yes.

Essential and non essential? I have yet to find that distinction in my Bible.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Charity in all things…yes.

Essential and non essential? I have yet to find that distinction in my Bible.

Yet, we all have to wrestle with that truth. If you make everything an essential issue, then you will have no brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[izoid]

Yet, we all have to wrestle with that truth. If you make everything an essential issue, then you will have no brothers and sisters in Christ.

Sure I do, I have 1 billion plus the remnant in the protestant denominations.

 

[izoid]

What did Job learn through His suffering?

Instead of this twenty questions, leading me down your path, why don’t you just state your position for us to read?

 

[Rocket_Man]

Instead of this twenty questions, leading me down your path, why don’t you just state your position for us to read?

Then Job replied to the LORD :
I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.

You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?’
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.’

My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.

Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes."

 

[izoid]

Then Job replied to the LORD :
I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.

You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?’
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.’

My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.

Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes."

When one posts verses without commentary it leaves it up to the reader to interpret. This in no way assists us in understanding your point.

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd_Adam:

For the Christmas season, I will limit my participation to this one thread. :christmastree1:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=405340

 

[Rocket_Man]

I do not think that GOd would ever allow someone to suffer for the purpose of making a point. His love for me is no greater if He chooses not to save some. I have been under this sort of teaching and I find it quite unimaginable that God would allow some to perish just so I could see how much He loves me. THe fact that He allows me to come to Him is enough, I do not need any reference points.

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[PRmerger]

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

To which Catholics respond with a hearty, “Amen!”

 

[Rocket_Man]

To which Catholics respond with a hearty, “Amen!”

What is the meaning of these scriptures to a Catholic “Amen”?

 

[izoid]

What is the meaning of these scriptures to a Catholic “Amen”?

I’d be more interested to know what your understanding of them is. It seems that you have fallen into the trap of just throwing scriptures out there and seeing where they will land. Anyone can do this, the real challenge is applying them appropriately.

 

[PRmerger]

What is the meaning of these scriptures to a Catholic “Amen”?

That’s exactly what point I was trying to make, Rocket!

Simply providing Scriptures provides no meaningful way to discuss the issue.

You tell us why you provided those verses, and then let’s discuss!

 

[Rocket_Man]

I believe that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners. I am one of those, a sinner in heart and deed. God is so perfectly and endlessly Holy that in His presence no person can be saved by their own right arm. All the children of pride are His for His pleasure to do as He wills. Some He saves and some He does not. And for whatever reasons why He acts for some and not others is perfectly Holy and Just. I don’t try to conform Him to my reasoning and limited understanding of Justice. I just know that He is God and not I.

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[Tomb54]

I am not proclaiming John Calvin, nor am I pointing to the Reformed Church as the savior. Can you say that about your postings about the Catholic Church? We as fellow Christians know who to point to.

“Unity in essential things, freedom in nonessential things, and charity in all things.”

We are not sure if Augustine actual said this, but it’s a good rule to go by.

Augustine said Follow the Catholic Church. Will you follow that teaching of his too?