"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[benedictus2]

There is nothing wrong with being a Catholic Calvinist. After-all, Augustine was the first Catholic Calvinist. I think Ryan Oneil will turn into a Catholic Calvinist very soon. I’m really a Calvinist catholic. But as a Mormon, I don’t think you like Augustine very much since he was part of the apostate church before Joesph Smith restored the apostate church.

Catholic Calvinist is an oxymoron. No such thing.

And please stop spreading your lies. Augustine is in no way Calvinist. I can understand your desperate need to find a father of the Church that will prove Calvinism is true but a little exercise of the grey cells shoots down the whole doctrine in a flash. Rational processes, that’s what Calvinists need.

 

[benedictus2]

I don’t believe it’s biblical to say that you have accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior. That’s a modern day invention

Truth at last.

So, what happens when you fall short of the worthy goal of living a Christ-like life daily? What do you do?

To live a life worthy of our calling can be summarized as this:

1. Love the Lord your God with ALL or your heart, soul, strenght, and mind
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

The question is how do you love God? How do you love your neighbour as your self?

I mean here real love not fuzzy wuzzy schmaltz

 

[benedictus2]

Thanks so much to 2ndAdam, Rocketman, and everyone else who contributed to giving us a biblical perspective from a biblical understanding!
:harp::heaven::bowdown::bowdown:

Simply dumping verses is not giving a Biblical perspective.

Even someone who does not beileve in the Bible can do that.

 

[PRmerger]

Catholic Calvinist is an oxymoron. No such thing.

And please stop spreading your lies. Augustine is in no way Calvinist. I can understand your desperate need to find a father of the Church that will prove Calvinism is true but a little exercise of the grey cells shoots down the whole doctrine in a flash. Rational processes, that’s what Calvinists need.

And, wouldn’t it actually be correct to say that Calvin was an Augstinian, since St. Augustine came first?

 

[humble_maid]

Thanks so much to 2ndAdam, Rocketman, and everyone else who contributed to giving us a biblical perspective from a biblical understanding!
:harp::heaven::bowdown::bowdown:

What is this suppose to mean? Who is everyone else…your calvin believing friends?
Is this a sidewinding insult to Catholics as if to say that we have no understanding of the bible?
Some people need to get a piece of humble pie?

What I have observed here is that there are those who will not understand(accept) that the apostles left a legacy in the manner of succession and oral instruction before there was even a bible. And may I remind you that the bible was first put together by the Catholic Church of which you are so fond of that you dissect the words and filter down the meaning rather than understand the richness of the sacred teaching of the forefathers and the apostles upon which the bible was taught. Rather you adhere to men such as Calvin and Luther who probably started out with good intentions but were in the end self serving and decidely divisive with no intent upon repairing the church. The work of division is not the fruits of the truly devout;2 Timothy 3:3-6, “**For we, being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one bread” (1 Corinthians 10:17). **

I gave Timothy, Rocket, and 2nd, scriptures (not philosophical views) that prove the CC’s POV and got no response and the only response I got was the original post, to which I had to repeat myself. They did not even investigate the scriptures I gave them which clearly demonstrates the priesthood, apostolic succession and the fallacy of their ‘once saved always saved’ doctrine.

I find that the attitude of some to be very male chauvinistic; 2nd doesn’t answer my posts and others tend to want to discuss matters only with a male counterpart. If I am wrong about the others please excuse me.

As for my brothers in the Catholic faith such as Tomb, and Guan thank you for your efforts and holy patience in trying to teach our separated brothers the truth and being tactful and mindful about it unlike some others. May God Bless you. And I would hope to converse with you but it seems that being a female here is not to my advantage. Maybe I should change my name to something more masculine like PRmerger…God bless you as well my sister.

In the true spirit of Our Lord may His Blessings be upon you.

 

[PRmerger]

Maybe I should change my name to something more masculine like PRmerger…God bless you as well my sister.

Right back at 'cha, Sister!

PS. I’ve been on this forum a long time, initially as a lurker and now as a poster, and I’ve found 2 themes:

-when someone doesn’t respond to repeated questions, it’s because the question has caused him a little bit of stupefaction. He will, instead, set up straw men, or provide nonsequitors–especially with isolated Scripture verses.

-absence of evidence is evidence that the original point was, in fact, a lie. Example: I had a Protestant once claim that Catholic priests were told NOT to read the Bible. Yup. Someone actually posted that here on this Forum. When called on to provide evidence, there was, of course, none produced. Conclusion: he lied and now won’t admit it in front of thousands of readers on this Forum.

 

[humble_maid]

Thank you PR for the up and up. You are my kind of friend. I’ll keep your advice in mind. I have tried to reason with 2nd on other threads but he is quite deliberate in his attempt to sidewind the issue; maybe its a protestant thing to think that they have a better understanding of the bible and therefore a better relationship with Jesus. If only they knew.

Take care and God Bless

 

[izoid]

Thank you PR for the up and up. You are my kind of friend. I’ll keep your advice in mind. I have tried to reason with 2nd on other threads but he is quite deliberate in his attempt to sidewind the issue; maybe its a protestant thing to think that they have a better understanding of the bible and therefore a better relationship with Jesus. If only they knew.

Take care and God Bless

I can assure you that it is a “protestant thing”. I spent 20 years in very conservative fundamental churches and this is the mode of operation. I was an elder, a pastor and a teacher and I can promise you that this is the type of behavior that they are trained to do.

I tend to get quite upset when I see it because it is very familiar. Unfortunately, I can spot it a mile away and I tend to react to it quicker than others. I sometimes seem harsh but it is only because I can see where it is leading.

The men that you are having issues with are only doing what they are trained to do. They believe without investigating and act upon those uneducated beliefs. The condescention is startling but I guess it goes with the territory. I thank Jesus that he pulled me out of that mess and into the truth of His Bride!

 

[Rocket_Man]

The men that you are having issues with are only doing what they are trained to do.

I believe that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners. I am one of those, a sinner in heart and deed. God is so perfectly and endlessly Holy that in His presence no person can be saved by their own right arm. All the children of pride are His for His pleasure to do as He wills. Some He saves and some He does not. And for whatever reasons why He acts for some and not others is perfectly Holy and Just. I don’t try to conform Him to my reasoning and limited understanding of Justice. I just know that He is God and not I.

 

[guanophore]

And, wouldn’t it actually be correct to say that Calvin was an Augstinian, since St. Augustine came first?

More accurate, and more honest. It would also be more honest to take Augustine in his context, which was Catholic.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I can assure you that it is a “protestant thing”. I spent 20 years in very conservative fundamental churches and this is the mode of operation. I was an elder, a pastor and a teacher and I can promise you that this is the type of behavior that they are trained to do.

I tend to get quite upset when I see it because it is very familiar. Unfortunately, I can spot it a mile away and I tend to react to it quicker than others. I sometimes seem harsh but it is only because I can see where it is leading.

The men that you are having issues with are only doing what they are trained to do. They believe without investigating and act upon those uneducated beliefs. The condescention is startling but I guess it goes with the territory. I thank Jesus that he pulled me out of that mess and into the truth of His Bride!

Let’s try hard to not attack each other personally, but stick to discussing and debating our doctrinal differences. I would not consider Reformed Churches as conservative fundamental churches.

 

[izoid]

Let’s try hard to not attack each other personally, but stick to discussing and debating our doctrinal differences. I would not consider Reformed Churches as conservative fundamental churches.

No personal attacks, just observations. I did not mention anyone by name, did I?

Just because you went to a liberal Reformed Church doesn’t mean some of them are not conservative.

 

[guanophore]

All the children of pride are His for His pleasure to do as He wills. Some He saves and some He does not. And for whatever reasons why He acts for some and not others is perfectly Holy and Just. I don’t try to conform Him to my reasoning and limited understanding of Justice. I just know that He is God and not I.

I can see why this perspective does promote humility in it’s adherants. I think it says more about Calvin’s sense of lack of loving experience of God in relationship than it does about God’s character. It is not consistent with what the Apostles believed and taught, and not consistent with anything Jesus said or did.

 

[izoid]

Let’s try hard to not attack each other personally, but stick to discussing and debating our doctrinal differences. I would not consider Reformed Churches as conservative fundamental churches.

Why is it when your protestant brothers use venemous, hate filled, words you stay silent. Yt when a Catholic calls them on it your consider that personal? Just wondering.

 

[izoid]

I can see why this perspective does promote humility in it’s adherants. I think it says more about Calvin’s sense of lack of loving experience of God in relationship than it does about God’s character. It is not consistent with what the Apostles believed and taught, and not consistent with anything Jesus said or did.

I have often seen this distant relationship with God in many men that I have known. I too used to feel that God’s love was distant. It was musch easier to see my relationship with him as that of Judge and criminal.

I think this has to do in part to our imperfect relationships with our earthly fathers. Once I saw God as loving me, not as my own father loved me, but as I love my children I was able to get a much fuller appreciation for what our relationship is supposed to be like.

 

[Rocket_Man]

I have often seen this distant relationship with God in many men that I have known. I too used to feel that God’s love was distant. It was musch easier to see my relationship with him as that of Judge and criminal.

I think this has to do in part to our imperfect relationships with our earthly fathers. Once I saw God as loving me, not as my own father loved me, but as I love my children I was able to get a much fuller appreciation for what our relationship is supposed to be like.

I think you error when you fail to see the full sprectum of God’s love when He acts as any of you would to save one of your own yet did so why we were enemies. What if, He does not save some to awaken our understanding of the magnitude of the gift we received in sending His only begotten Son.

 

[izoid]

I think you error when you fail to see the full sprectum of God’s love when He acts as any of you would to save one of your own yet did so why we were enemies. What if, He does not save some to awaken our understanding of the magnitude of the gift we received in sending His only begotten Son.

I don’t think any of us can see the full spectrum of God’s love, it is simply eyond human comprehension.

I do not think that GOd would ever allow someone to suffer for the purpose of making a point. His love for me is no greater if He chooses not to save some. I have been under this sort of teaching and I find it quite unimaginable that God would allow some to perish just so I could see how much He loves me. THe fact that He allows me to come to Him is enough, I do not need any reference points.

 

[2nd_Adam]

No personal attacks, just observations. I did not mention anyone by name, did I?

Just because you went to a liberal Reformed Church doesn’t mean some of them are not conservative.

That’s another slander my friend. I’m not sure if you posted that with knowledge or ignorance. Conservative fundamental churches are like the church you attended:

I know you attended Jerry Fallwell’s church with the moral majority, Christian coalition and right wing political agenda. Reformed Churches are much more Christ-centered and gospel centered.

 

[Rocket_Man]

I don’t think any of us can see the full spectrum of God’s love, it is simply eyond human comprehension.

I do not think that GOd would ever allow someone to suffer for the purpose of making a point. His love for me is no greater if He chooses not to save some. I have been under this sort of teaching and I find it quite unimaginable that God would allow some to perish just so I could see how much He loves me. THe fact that He allows me to come to Him is enough, I do not need any reference points.

I agree, the full spectrum of God’s love in our limited understanding. I just finished reading Job. It seems to me that He did allow Job to suffer to prove a point? Does this make God unjust?

 

[izoid]

That’s another slander my friend. I’m not sure if you posted that with knowledge or ignorance. Conservative fundamental churches are like the church you attended:

I know you attended Jerry Fallwell’s church with the moral majority, Christian coalition and right wing political agenda. Reformed Churches are much more Christ-centered and gospel centered.

So who is slandering now? I make no reference to who you are as a person, just as to the churches you attend.

I never attended Jerry Fallwell’s church, never lived in Virginia.

Your opinion of Reformed Churches and my experiences within them are very different. And before you claim that I never went to a Reformed Church, I never was presbyterian or Reformed but the churches I did attend held to a reformed theology.

Just remember, you go to a Baptist Church and consider yourself to be reformed.