"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[Timothy_Piper]

Grist for another thread. We know them because the Church has followed the Apsotolic instruction to preserve them. One of them is that the Sacred Scripture is not to be separated from the Sacred Tradition that produced it. Another is that Scripture is to be understood in the light of what the HS has already revealed up to the present time.

The two compliment one another. The light is going off that tells me you are hostile toward what has been preserved.

Certainly there are no contradictions. However, scripture was never meant to serve as a complete compendium of the Christian life. Jesus founded a Church. 2nd already opened a thread on this topic, and sooner rather than later, the mods will shut this one for over limit.

Definitely not to those who refuse the evidence.

There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see.

Interesting that the Bible does not say this about itself, and in fact, says the opposite.

It is not “extra”. The whole deposit of faith was given “once for all to the saints”. It was in the form of Sacred Scripture,a nd Sacred Tradition (the Apostolic Teaching not committed to writing).

I am sorry, Tim. Not only do I not see a discrepancy, I don’t see a relationship. I must be getting tired?

My understanding is that Adam’s “fall” did not unmake the image of God that was created in him. When he procreated in his own image, it was procreation according to what God gave him. God created man, and said it was “good”. Man does not have the power to “uncreate” what God made good.

I give up on this thread; I cannot force someone to believe the truth. The gospel is so clear and so easy to understand, but apparently very difficult to accept. Thanks for the friendly dialogue; I have learned a lot in reference to His Word, but I am blessed in this, but I study and pray and ask.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Ok based on Calvinism then next question has to be who made man then if Calvinist believe God does not make evil and Calvinist say man is all evil until saved by God then the conclusion based on your statement above is God did not make man so who did?

You all are to philosophical; look in the Bible; it spells it out very clearly. You need the spiritual glasses and get rid of those earthly ones. There are many people who do good things by mans standard. But God is the moral Creator; His standard is perfection; so from His perspective the moment man sinned. " All of fall short of the glory of God" & “no not one seeks after God because men love the darkness and their deed are evil” How can God really say that? As Jesus put it, he who desires me must deny himself (all of our self interests) take up his cross and follow me.

I’m out of this thread I have said more than enough.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

What salvation other religions have still has come from the church even if they do not want to admit it. Where did the bible come from (esp which books are in the NT)? You might want to explore this part in the future.

You are confused God purposed the Scripture before the beginning of time. Read John 1 beginning in verse 1. This is a serious error to assume any traditions or rituals were before the “Living Word”.

 

[guanophore]

I am glad you feel this way. By the way you never answered my post.

God Bless

I am glad he can rejoice, but it is sad that he has been duped by the duplicity of Tweety into thinking she is Catholic. He is proof positive of the dangerous effects of the stumbling block she has created.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Well, there’s one teaching preserved by the Church that is not written in Scripture that you use every single day (that is, if you read your Bible every day)!

And that is the canon of Scripture. There are no verses in the Bible that tell us what books are inspired. That was determined entirely through Sacred Tradition. The Holy Spirit inspired the Magisterium, that is the Catholic bishops meeting in an ecumenical council, to preserve the writings of Scripture. It was Sacred Tradition that said that the Gospel of Thomas is not inspired (which, I presume you agree with) and that the Gospel of Mark is.

So *each and every time *you read Scripture and quote it and assume that it is the inspired Word of God ***you are giving your tacit approval to Sacred Tradition. ***

Each and every time you read from the Gospel of Mark, and not from the Gospel of Thomas at your worship services you are giving your tacit approval to Sacred Tradition.

Read 2 Peter 3 beginning in verse 18. Peter commands us to increase in grace and knowledge of Jesus and warns that not doing so will allow us to be mislead in the conversation is in reference to Scripture.

The Scriptures were determined before the first human ever existed. John 1 beginning in verse 1.

I’m out of here; i have given you much to see and have repeated myself several times; therefore i have nothing else I can add, but have gained much blessing…thanks to all.

 

[guanophore]

There you go into that human perspective. When were the Scriptures determined? By Whom? So which came first the Word or your traditions and rituals?

Thbere are a couple mistakes here. First, we are talking about the NT, which was produced by Sacred Tradtitions of the NT Church. Men, moved by the Spirit, spoke from God. Second, they are not “my” traditions, but God’s. They were committed to the Jews long before Christ came along. God trained a people for Himself to be able to maintain His word.

John 1 In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

I think one of the most dangerous errors that my scripture loving separated brethren fall into is idolizing the Bible as if it is Christ. Jesus, the Word of God is not confined to the Scriptures. He expresses Himself through them, just as He does through the Church.

You really need to recognize when the Word is from the viewpoint of God or from the human in the “time” box perspective.

This is precisely how we know that Sacred Tradition is from Him, and not from a human source.

 The church is the "pillar and "support" of the truth; therefore in or to be a pillar and to support the truth, the truth had to have already existed, which is consistent with the "Living Word".

Yes.

Likewise, the written word and the oral teaching are one in the same.

They are the same in value and Source, but not content. If they were, there would be no reason to preserve them both, woudl there?

look at the last section of 2 Peter 3, I believe beginning in verse 18 where Peter gives a warning and a command, the warning is remaining ignorant to Scripture and the command is to grow in the knowledge of the Lord, which the topic in the dialogue is Scripture. This is why no one can come up with traditions that do not pass the litmus test of Scripture,

I agree, the error of Sola Scriptura being the top of the list. There are no Catholic doctrines that are not consistent with Scripture. There cannot be, since they both emanate from the same Source.

Tradition or teaching do not define what is taught, what is taught (God’s Word) defines the Tradtion,

I am sorry I could not make any sense out of this. Sacred Tradtition IS God’s word, alive and well in the Church.

the man went to the pool to was his eyes by faith, but that is the smaller picture,

I think you are deliberately trying to avoid the point by changing the focus. Was the man’s obedience to Christ and washing the mud as he was told a “work”? Did he, by obedience, “earn” the healing? Did the mud make it any less of a gift? You seem to believe that those who follow the sacraments are “working” and that God’s grace is no longer free, just because we go to wash in the pool of His grace by His instruction.

Correction; there has never been any salvation by anyone who did not receive the free gift of salvation based on faith in Christ; far different gospel than the one you just described above.

Well, we read it differently, don’t we. The Catholic Church teaches that there is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved but by the Lord Jesus Christ. All who are saved become members of Him, and therefore, members of His One Body, the Church, outside of which, thereofre, there is no salvation.

 

[guanophore]

There is nothing I can say here the promise of the spirit is to all who believe and the spirit has specific duties and one is leading to the truth of the things pertaining to God

This is true, of course. But the promise that they would be led into all truth was made to the Church. Those that separate from her no longer have access to the promise.

 By your standard, then once the apostles died, then no one has access to the truth

On the contrary, the apostolic succession was Jesus’ plan whereby the Truth was to be preserved. They passed on their teaching and their authority to faithful men who could teach others also.

, therefore you must invent to succession principle,

I think when you are willing to read the early church fathers, it will become clear that this principle, instituted by Christ, was already in it’s third generation when the NT began to be penned. We see the begining of Apostolic succession with the election of Matthias. The accounts of Paul clearly demonstrate him appointing bishops, and instructing the bishops to carry on the authority of the Apostolic mission.

Never mind that the Bible mentions nothing of a pope nor of a priesthood nor of holy orders nor of  repeated bloodless sacrifice of Christ nor a confessional booth et al.

Tim, do you have any interest in understanding what Catholics see when we read Scripture? If you can’t take off your anti-Catholic lenses, even for the sake of intellectual exercise, then we will not make muych progress.

 I'll go with the Holy spirit of promise; you stay with the Catholic Church and we will both be happy.

The HS always leads into unity, and since there is only One Church, then I am sure you are right.

You are a very interesting person; at times you are very Calvin and times like now you are very Catholic.

Augustine and Aquinas worked all this out long before Calvin.

 

[guanophore]

You are confused God purposed the Scripture before the beginning of time. Read John 1 beginning in verse 1. This is a serious error to assume any traditions or rituals were before the “Living Word”.

Yes, the Scriptures, as well as the “oracles” of God, for which He prepared a people (the Jews) to preserve them. I agree about the preceding. The Traditions and the Rituals are an expression of the Living Word.

If you think that God is not fond of Traditions and ritual, why do you think He gave so much of it to the Jews?

 

[zerinus]

Why do you find Christ to be desirable and most find darkness to be more desirable? Why is your will more inclined to the light than the darkness?

It is a matter of choice; there is no “why” about it. If there was a “why” about it, then it wouldn’t be choice, it would be something else. It is a choice.

 

[zerinus]

Of course not. God’s sufficient grace is sufficient for all who find Christ to be desirable. The non-elect run from the light because they find darkness to be more desirable than Christ. Here’s the Scripture proof of that statement. We all freely come to whatever we find to be the most desirable.

For God So Loved the World

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” - John 3

Where does it say in that scripture that “The non-elect run from the light because they find darkness to be more desirable than Christ”? You are implying by that statement some form of predestination. That scripture implies no such thing.

 

[zerinus]

The person and work of Christ is sufficient to merit salvation for all fallen creatures of God (fallen mankind, fallen angels, fallen aliens, fallen dogs and cats, etc). However, the person and work of Christ is designed for God’s elect, therefore, it is sufficient for those whom God intended it to be for.

That statement is self-contradictory; it makes no sense.

 

[izoid]

Originally Posted by izoid
You created this thread so that you could answer the question. Now you want us to create another one?

Are you afraid of the implications of how this question must be answered?

Not a bit. I am having less and less use for TULIP as the posts go by.

In case you missed it, I understand that creating false dichotomies seems to be an enjoyable approach to discussion for you, but I don’t care for it myself.

I am not sure what happened here but my post was not intended for you Guan. It was directed at Adam. I think your response was also directed towards him.

See post #1329.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by izoid
You created this thread so that you could answer the question. Now you want us to create another one?

Are you afraid of the implications of how this question must be answered?

Originally Posted by guanophore
Not a bit. I am having less and less use for TULIP as the posts go by.

 

[PRmerger]

Read 2 Peter 3 beginning in verse 18. Peter commands us to increase in grace and knowledge of Jesus and warns that not doing so will allow us to be mislead in the conversation is in reference to Scripture.
The Scriptures were determined before the first human ever existed. John 1 beginning in verse 1.

To which Catholics respond with a resounding “Amen!”

However, your post is a nonsequitor and does not address this: you asked for an example of “sacred traditions or teachings preserved by the church that are not written in Scripture.”

And you were provided with an example that you (hopefully) use every single day..

I believe that you realize, now, after coming to the CAFs that you have tacitly accepted Sacred Tradition, despite your fallible pastor’s warnings about the evils of going outside of Scripture. It’s something you do every day!

 

[Cr8ton]

Thanks so much to 2ndAdam, Rocketman, and everyone else who contributed to giving us a biblical perspective from a biblical understanding!
:harp::heaven::bowdown::bowdown:

 

[Tomb54]

There is nothing I can say here the promise of the spirit is to all who believe and the spirit has specific duties and one is leading to the truth of the things pertaining to God. By your standard, then once the apostles died, then no one has access to the truth, therefore you must invent to succession principle,which 1800 or so years later results with a pope that has ex-cathedra power. Never mind that the Bible mentions nothing of a pope nor of a priesthood nor of holy orders nor of repeated bloodless sacrifice of Christ nor a confessional booth et al.

I’ll go with the Holy spirit of promise; you stay with the Catholic Church and we will both be happy.

You are a very interesting person; at times you are very Calvin and times like now you are very Catholic.

The Trinity is not in the bible either which I think you believe in and is from Oral Catholic Tradition The bible mentions a visible Church from the Apostle time but you deny that too because do do not like the answer of which on that church is. The Bible mentions also that the Gentile will offer incense and a pure offering to the Father – Do you do that in your church – I thought not but we do. Do you eat the Body of Christ as the Jesus, the Bible and the EF said we must. I thought not but we do.
I think you need to explore the Early Church Fathers before you attack what the CC teachings on these points or are you saying the ones taught by the Apostle got it wrong right from the start and only now your church got it right?
The Bible also says to listen to the Church and Church leaders so your soul can be secure. Was your Church in existence then? The promise of the HS was to those in the Church at the time. I do not think the Powers of Hell prevail against the Church or if it did then Jesus lied to us all. If the Catholic Church is not the one then you must find this visible Church that existed since the time of the Apostle and have a lineage (recorded history) for it.

 

[Tomb54]

You are confused God purposed the Scripture before the beginning of time. Read John 1 beginning in verse 1. This is a serious error to assume any traditions or rituals were before the “Living Word”.

If this is true where are the verses in the bible that you believe above all else?

 

[Tomb54]

You all are to philosophical; look in the Bible; it spells it out very clearly. You need the spiritual glasses and get rid of those earthly ones. There are many people who do good things by mans standard. But God is the moral Creator; His standard is perfection; so from His perspective the moment man sinned. " All of fall short of the glory of God" & “no not one seeks after God because men love the darkness and their deed are evil” How can God really say that? As Jesus put it, he who desires me must deny himself (all of our self interests) take up his cross and follow me.

I’m out of this thread I have said more than enough.

The bible might spell it out but it is not what 2nd Adam is saying. Adam said man is evil and only desires evil if this is true and God only makes things that are good then who made man? He is preaching Calvinist beliefs but they are not supported completely by the Bible. Calvinist must be able to answer tis question if man is nothing but evil.

Catholic believe that all in the world is good (at least each person was at birth). We might be wounded with the sin of Adam but we are still good and have God’s moral laws written in our hearts. Man goes wrong when he reject God’s Grace and love and go after the lesser goods of this world over the higher good of loving God. In going after these lesser good things man places himself in bad company and if he stay in these pursuits he is corrupted and moves even further from our loving God.
There were man men that did good in God’s eyes before Jesus (2n Adam) came so the Calvinist beliefs do not stand up to the teachings of the bible.

 

[guanophore]

Originally Posted by izoid
You created this thread so that you could answer the question. Now you want us to create another one?

Are you afraid of the implications of how this question must be answered?

I am not sure what happened here but my post was not intended for you Guan. It was directed at Adam. I think your response was also directed towards him.

See post #1329.

Yes, I understand, and you are correct. I think 2nd forgot that he opened this thread so he could answer the question.

I think you are also correct that he is concerned about the implications of the case of Cornelius on TULIP.

 

[ryanoneil]

What we really need to do is start a thread on free will. I agree that our wills are free to choose what we ultimately desire the most. But what are the influences behind our desires to choose what we do? We have to consider Romans 8 and the influence of fallen man, and the Spirit of God dwelling in believers in discussing free will and outside influences. I do not believe the will is free from outside influences. Why do we both find Jesus Christ to be extremely desirable, and most of humanity do not?

I agree there are all kinds of influences that affect us. Our cooperation with or resistance to grace, and God allowing us to respond to it, is at the top of the list.