"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[tweetymom]

I never ever had any relationship with Him in the CC, never! never! never! never! once!
Blind! Blind! Blind!..so there was never any thought of a renewal with something I never had. Not regenerated!

By the time I was nine years old, other catholic boys in the neighborhood including myself were engaging in homosexual acts with eachother.

If His Word was truely living in the body of the church, then it didn’t speak to me from there either.

I found mercy and forgiveness outside the CC. Can’t you believe it?

Rocket, your story is a lot like mine and I idenify with you. I think that they don’t want to believe it. God Bless you dear Brother in Christ.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Why is it that God’s chosen people, Israel, had to spend 40 years in the desert?

By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night. Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the people.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Rocket, your story is a lot like mine and I idenify with you. I think that they don’t want to believe it. God Bless you dear Brother in Christ.

Thank you for supporting someone who left the Church, Tweety.

Like I said, Rocket, your story of finding Christ is powerful, and I am happy for you. But you have no good reason for leaving the Church except for “Not desiring [a relationship with our Lord] at the time or any time in the CC” Was it your brother’s influence on you?

 

[Carlan]

By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night. Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the people.

And Rocket during the time before you left the Church to follow your temptations, your heart was completely closed to that light of Christ, If you came from a nominal Catholic home that could have contributed to your luke warm heart as a child.:shrug:Carlan

 

[guanophore]

I think you misunderstand. I’m not blaming the church. The church was not responsible for my blindness. Yet, the infant baptism did not change my spiritual condition.

“Because I was spiritually dead, I proceeded to live a life that I was destined to do. I was a slave to sin and sin is what I practiced.”

I understand that you believe this, Rocket.

However, it is quite possible that the graces received by you and your parents enabled you to enter into a more personal relationship with God.

People who have been united to Christ (regenerated) can still return to a life of sin and 'deadness".

 

[izoid]

By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night. Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the people.

You did not answer the question. WHY did they have to spend 40 years in the desert?

 

[Rocket_Man]

You did not answer the question. WHY did they have to spend 40 years in the desert?

Because after all that God has showed them, all the signs and wonders in leading them free out of Egypt, their hearts were still turned back to bondage.

 

[Carlan]

Because after all that God has showed them, all the signs and wonders in leading them free out of Egypt, their hearts were still turned back to bondage.

And Rocket, can’t you relate that to what happened to you and your parents while you were still in the Catholic Church. Don’t you see it?? The indelible mark of your baptism never left you it was still there when God’s active grace turn you back and saved you again from your sin. Yes! Carlan

 

[Rocket_Man]

People who have been united to Christ (regenerated) can still return to a life of sin and 'deadness".

<< 1 John 3 >>
King James Bible

---

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. ** Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.**

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

With true regeneration, returning to a life of sin and deadness is incompatible with everything that Christ had done on the cross and the love shed in our hearts.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

<< 1 John 3 >>
King James Bible

---

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

You can still sin/fall.

Matthew 13:18-23: “Hear then the parable of the sower. When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, **this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. ** As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”

Mark 13:13: and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

2 Peter 2: 20-22: For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.

 

[Carlan]

And Rocket, can’t you relate that to what happened to you and your parents while you were still in the Catholic Church. Don’t you see it?? The indelible mark of your baptism never left you it was still there when God’s active grace turn you back and saved you again from your sin. Yes! Carlan

You had to be where your brother was when he let go, before God’s actual grace could finally break thu into your heart.
It took being at the end of your rope before you could finally let go for God to save you.
I believe with all my heart it was your baptism when you were a babe that provided that grace for you.Carlan

 

[Rocket_Man]

You can still sin/fall.

Matthew 13:18-23: “Hear then the parable of the sower. When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, **this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. ** As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”

Mark 13:13: and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

2 Peter 2: 20-22: For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.

All of these are hearers only. The only escape from the defilements of the world is through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Once they rejected the holy commandment delivered to them, the Gospel, there is nothing remaining anywhere that will save them. Nothing! No other belief of religious practice will ever save them. They rejected the only way that a person can come onto the Father.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

All of these are hearers only. The only escape from the defilements of the world is through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Once they rejected the holy commandment delivered to them, the Gospel, there is nothing remaining anywhere that will save them. Nothing! No other belief of religious practice will ever save them.

But they can repent, and turn away from sin and death.

They rejected the only way that a person can come onto the Father.

And they can come back to Him. Praise the Lord He’s a God of second chances!

We are not ‘once saved, always saved.’ God saves us everyday. And He will keep on doing that if we keep asking it of Him.

My point: We can all fall into sin again…we will continue to time and time again - it’s our human nature. But that’s why we call on His assistance to help us to be better, confess our failings, and stay close to His Sacred Heart to keep us from the clutches of sin and the Devil.

 

[Rocket_Man]

I believe with all my heart it was your baptism when you were a babe that provided that grace for you.Carlan

And I tell you that it wasn’t. The seed was not sown in my heart. I was enslaved to sin.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I was enslaved to sin.

And still are. You are human.

 

[Rocket_Man]

But they can repent, and turn away from sin and death.

This is not scripture about sin and repentance. This is scripture about rejection of the only means to come to the Father, the Gospel. The rejection is permanent.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[lil_flower_luv]

This is not scripture about sin and repentance. This is scripture about rejection of the only means to come to the Father, the Gospel. The rejection is permanent.

Okay, maybe that wasn’t the best example. There are other scriptures, however, to prove my point. You may have been saved from your ‘deadness’ so many years ago when you didn’t give a whoop about religion. But even now, after you have been given a relationship with our Lord, you can still sin - that’s all I’m saying.

Revelation 2:4: Yet I hold this against you: you have lost the love you had at first. Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first.

 

[izoid]

With true regeneration, returning to a life of sin and deadness is incompatible with everything that Christ had done on the cross and the love shed in our hearts.

Do you believe that none of the Israelites, who wandered in the desert, were saved?

 

[Carlan]

All of these are hearers only. ***The only escape from the defilements of the world is through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. ***Once they rejected the holy commandment delivered to them, the Gospel, there is nothing remaining anywhere that will save them. Nothing! No other belief of religious practice will ever save them. They rejected the only way that a person can come onto the Father.

Yes that is truth and that knowledge, while you were still in the Church, had not made its way into your heart.
After God’s actual grace was finally responded to, when you were still in sin, that is when your heart was able to take in the truth of His Son’s cross.

You could have been saved from all that heartache of sin,if for whatever reason, you had not left Christ’s Church in the first place.God bless you and your family, Rocket, and may He shine the light of his Truth on all of us.Carlan

 

[Rocket_Man]

Okay, maybe that wasn’t the best example. There are other scriptures, however, to prove my point. You may have been saved from your ‘deadness’ so many years ago when you didn’t give a whoop about religion. But even now, after you have been given a relationship with our Lord, you can still sin - that’s all I’m saying.

Revelation 2:4: Yet I hold this against you: you have lost the love you had at first. Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first.

Yes, we still sin. But we no longer are bent towards a lifestye without God where we were in continuous bondage to our fleshly desires.

“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.”