"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[Rocket_Man]

Do you believe that none of the Israelites, who wandered in the desert, were saved?

He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.

This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

"Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Rocket_Man]

That is certainly a curious interest for a “spiritually dead” person to have.

It is interesting and I thought about it often. Maybe it’s just a testimony of how spiritually hungry I was when not receiving any nourishment through the sacraments or Living Word supposedly contained in the church body.

 

[Rocket_Man]

You had to be where your brother was when he let go, before God’s actual grace could finally break thu into your heart.
It took being at the end of your rope before you could finally let go for God to save you.
I believe with all my heart it was your baptism when you were a babe that provided that grace for you.Carlan

This was not the workings of baptismal regeneration. This was the workings of sin and death and the law. I had to die before I could be reborn.

 

[Rocket_Man]

This was not the workings of baptismal regeneration. This was the workings of sin and death and the law. I had to die before I could be reborn.

“And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory”

 

[PRmerger]

That is certainly a curious interest for a “spiritually dead” person to have.

Quite curious, indeed!

Perhaps it was the prompting of the HS, from the indelible claim that was made on Rocket from his infant baptism?

 

[lil_flower_luv]

we no longer are bent towards a lifestye without God where we were in continuous bondage to our fleshly desires.

Are you referring to before Christ died for our sins?

 

[tweetymom]

Thank you for supporting someone who left the Church, Tweety.

Like I said, Rocket, your story of finding Christ is powerful, and I am happy for you. But you have no good reason for leaving the Church except for “Not desiring [a relationship with our Lord] at the time or any time in the CC” Was it your brother’s influence on you?

Oh your welcome, no problem.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Quite curious, indeed!

Perhaps it was the prompting of the HS, from the indelible claim that was made on Rocket from his infant baptism?

I was spiritually dead. The Word Lives!

Maybe it’s just a testimony of how spiritually hungry I was when not receiving any nourishment through the sacraments or Living Word supposedly contained in the church body.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

IMaybe it’s just a testimony of how spiritually hungry I was when not receiving any nourishment through the sacraments or Living Word supposedly contained in the church body.

Yes, the very same nourishment you never wanted while in the Church. Ya know, God gave us a funny thing called Free Will. Please stop blaming the Church for your own failings.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Oh your welcome, no problem.

Tweety, could you please remember me in your prayers? I seem to be quick to anger, and even faster to judge. Thank you.

 

[Carlan]

I was spiritually dead. The Word Lives!

Maybe it’s just a testimony of how spiritually hungry I was when not receiving any nourishment through the sacraments or Living Word supposedly contained in the church body.

Or could it have been because your heart lacked openness to the sacraments during much of that time. Think about it, ponder it and take it to the Father for his answer. Shine your light on us all Lord.Carlan

 

[guanophore]

This was not the workings of baptismal regeneration. This was the workings of sin and death and the law. I had to die before I could be reborn.

The fact that you were able to come to authentic Christian living is one of the effects of baptism. You were able to repent of your dead works, by His grace.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Are you referring to before Christ died for our sins?

No, this would be the time before one is united to Christ. Either you are a child of the devil or a child of Christ. There’s no a little bit of this or a little bit of that. Those that live their lives doing sin, habitually and continuously serving sin are children of the devil. Those that are in Christ, cannot habitually and continuously serve sin, because this incompatible with the work of Christ, “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners” and incompatible with His ministry, and incompatible with the deposit left in believers heart.

*Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. *

 

[guanophore]

“And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory”

This is what happens in baptism, Rocket,

 

[guanophore]

I was spiritually dead. The Word Lives!

Maybe it’s just a testimony of how spiritually hungry I was when not receiving any nourishment through the sacraments or Living Word supposedly contained in the church body.

This is an excellent point. No one spiritually hungers unless the grace of God is at work in them.

You also make a good point that, when one participates in the sacramental life of the church in a state of mortal sin, or without expectant faith, they don’t find themselves nourished. Such a person is improperly disposed to receive their graces.

I had the same expereince, and ended up leaving because I was "starving’. .Later, I realized that a person can be sitting at a giant banquet, still starving, because one does not recognize the food, or thinks it is rocks.

 

[Rocket_Man]

The fact that you were able to come to authentic Christian living is one of the effects of baptism. You were able to repent of your dead works, by His grace.

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I was spiritually dead. The Word Lives!

Maybe it’s just a testimony of how spiritually hungry I was when not receiving any nourishment through the sacraments or Living Word supposedly contained in the church body.

When you use subjective reasoning (i.e. one’s experience), then other’s experiences are equally valid. Example: An atheist’s experience of God (I cannot perceive with my material senses therefore He doesn’t exist), a Catholics experience of God (God is present is the Eucharist) or a Hindu’s experience of God (God is immanent but not transcendent) are all equally valid. These type of uses the subjective (atheist, Catholic, Hindu) to tell the objective (who God is) are all valid yet these point of view of God aren’t all true.

Furthermore, you cannot conclude that just because these two things happened together means that they are causally related.(See: Cum Hoc fallacy) Like the others here have said here, you have a free will. Whether you are non-Catholic or Catholic, this remains. In either theological view, you have the choice to choose God or sin.

For what it’s worth, you can read my experience with the Sacraments here.

 

[Rocket_Man]

This is an excellent point. No one spiritually hungers unless the grace of God is at work in them.

You also make a good point that, when one participates in the sacramental life of the church in a state of mortal sin, or without expectant faith, they don’t find themselves nourished. Such a person is improperly disposed to receive their graces.

I had the same expereince, and ended up leaving because I was "starving’. .Later, I realized that a person can be sitting at a giant banquet, still starving, because one does not recognize the food, or thinks it is rocks.

And the grace that was working it me, is the same grace that has saved thousands of believers not baptized Catholic.

 

[guanophore]

No, this would be the time before one is united to Christ. Either you are a child of the devil or a child of Christ. There’s no a little bit of this or a little bit of that. Those that live their lives doing sin, habitually and continuously serving sin are children of the devil. Those that are in Christ, cannot habitually and continuously serve sin, because this incompatible with the work of Christ, “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners” and incompatible with His ministry, and incompatible with the deposit left in believers heart.

We are united to Him in baptism, as we are buried with Him in His death. If you think that saved person’s don’t fall back into a life of sin, you are misinformed. I agree, it is incompatible with Christ. That is why, if they return to the world after first having been enlightened, there remains no sacrifice. One who receives Christ, then rejects Him, has no where else to turn. “To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life”.

 

[guanophore]

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Did you think that a person who had become a Christian could not go back to living in the flesh?

When you read Rom 7, do you think that Paul does not describe himself here? Why do you think Paul says “I pummel my body, and subdue it”?