"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[2nd_Adam]

I believe it is you that is wrong Adam. Tweety’s views are not Catholic views. It is clear to anyone who reads what she believes. She may be a practicing Catholic but her theology and moral views are not in alignment with the Church. In my opinion, she is very harmful to those who come to these boards to understand what the Catholic Church teaches. He views are not those of the Church in which she worships.

How long have you been Catholic Izoid? I grew up with many close friends from childhood through college that were practicing Catholic. My college roommate’s twin brother who was also a friend of mine has been a Catholic Priest for at least 20 years. Most Catholics that I know are not quite the staunch Catholic like you and Guan… yet they are still valued members of the Catholic Church. Actually, I see Tweetymom to be way more Catholic than you and Guan combined due to her deep love for Jesus Christ. I believe a true Catholic like a true Evangelical are the ones who love God in Jesus Christ with great passion. Orthodox doctrine should fuel us in our love for Jesus Christ.

 

[izoid]

This is what I believe Scripture teaches in regards to baptism. There is a baptism done by the Spirit of Christ which unites us to Christ through the instrument of faith upon hearing and receiving the gospel. And there is an outward baptism done by men as a testimony and witness to what God has done for us in the Spirit. Therefore, there are many who have the outward baptism we call the sacrament of baptism, but not have been baptized by the Spirit of God which united them to Christ. It is very similar to the OT Church in which many boasted in their outward circumcision, but have not been circumcised in the heart by the Spirit. That truth was clearly taught by Jesus and Paul throughout the New Testament.

Alive in Christ

Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

• Col 3

The OT Jews was brought into the covenant relationship with God through circumcision, correct? THe covenantal relationship was consummated through circumcision.

How is the new covenant relationship consummated? Baptism. It is not through belief but through baptism Adam,can you not see this?

 

[izoid]

This is what I believe Scripture teaches in regards to baptism. There is a baptism done by the Spirit of Christ which unites us to Christ through the instrument of faith upon hearing and receiving the gospel. And there is an outward baptism done by men as a testimony and witness to what God has done for us in the Spirit. Therefore, there are many who have the outward baptism we call the sacrament of baptism, but not have been baptized by the Spirit of God which united them to Christ. It is very similar to the OT Church in which many boasted in their outward circumcision, but have not been circumcised in the heart by the Spirit. That truth was clearly taught by Jesus and Paul throughout the New Testament.

Alive in Christ

Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

• Col 3

Can you explain to me what was being addressed in this chapter of Colossians. Was it a dissertation on baptism or have you taken it out of context?

 

[2nd_Adam]

guanophore:
I understand that you believe this, however, it is not consistent with the Scriptural account. The Aposltes taught that there is ONE BAPTISM, and that the Spirit is not separated from the water. Futhermore, the early Church was persecuted,a nd they did baptism in secret so as not to have the converts carried off to martyrdom immediately. Those in the Church did not require any "testimony and witness’ from the candidate. On the contrary, they were there to be a witness for him!

In Scripture, there is no such thing as “an outward baptism done by men”.

This is a modern innovation that comes from an anti-Sacramental view of the faith.

Are you trying to say that Catholics belong to the devil, because we believe in baptismal regeneration?

Of course not. I don’t believe the belief of baptismal regeneration is damnable. It’s the same as the Catholic Church. The majority of Protestants reject baptismal regeneration, yet the Catholic Church accepts the Protestant’s baptisms as being vaild. If we stayed within Scripture alone in debating baptismal regeneration, your view will be shown to be unbiblical when considering all of Scipture. Baptismal regeneration can only stand with Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church, but it can never stand in light of Scripture alone.

 

[Rocket_Man]

And that my friends is the protestant life. It is all about what the INDIVIDUAL reads, sees and feels. This is not the picture of the Church in the Bible. The Biblical picture of the church is not of individual experience but as unity, unity on par of that of Jesus ad the Father. See John 17.

And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Was the eunuch in the picture of the Church in the Bible? Isn’t this the unity that He desires?

 

[2nd_Adam]

How long have you been Catholic Izoid?

 

[izoid]

How long have you been Catholic Izoid? I grew up with many close friends from childhood through college that were practicing Catholic. My college roommate’s twin brother who was also a friend of mine has been a Catholic Priest for at least 20 years. Most Catholics that I know are not quite the staunch Catholic like you and Guan… yet they are still valued members of the Catholic Church. Actually, I see Tweetymom to be way more Catholic than you and Guan combined due to her deep love for Jesus Christ. I believe a true Catholic like a true Evangelical are the ones who love God in Jesus Christ with great passion. Orthodox doctrine should fuel us in our love for Jesus Christ.

Just like you who claim that John MacArthur IS NOT a Calvinist even though he claims to be? YOu can make these claims about your fellow protestant but we cannot evaluate the beliefs of another Catholic? You are quite the hypocrite Adam yet you do not even see it.

As far as who is and who is not a better Catholic, I can care less what you think. You think the Pope embraces Luther’s view of sola fide, who is it that lacks credibility? I think I will stick with the Catholic Churches teachings on what it is to be Catholic and not some Calvinists, no disrespect intended.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Just like you who claim that John MacArthur IS NOT a Calvinist even though he claims to be? YOu can make these claims about your fellow protestant but we cannot evaluate the beliefs of another Catholic? You are quite the hypocrite Adam yet you do not even see it.

As far as who is and who is not a better Catholic, I can care less what you think. You think the Pope embraces Luther’s view of sola fide, who is it that lacks credibility? I think I will stick with the Catholic Churches teachings on what it is to be Catholic and not some Calvinists, no disrespect intended.

There is no badge of honor of being a Calvinist. However, for being Catholic is quite different in the importance of being Catholic for the Catholic. In addition, John MacArthur is not a 71 year old great grandmother like Tweetymon. I think you will find that the majority of Reformed Christians do not really see MacArthur as being a true Calvinists… whatever that means. There is a term called being “Truly Reformed” in Cavlinist’s circles. For me, what that really matters is being Chrisitan since I do not believe that Calvinism saves. All that really matters for each person is moving from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light, for being in Christ is everything. All I’m trying to do is defend Tweetymom for the constant attacks from a few overzelous Catholics on this site, who have lost sight of 1 cor 13 in their defense of the Catholic Faith.

Izoid, how long have you been Catholic?

 

[izoid]

Of course not. I don’t believe the belief of baptismal regeneration is damnable. It’s the same as the Catholic Church. The majority of Protestants reject baptismal regeneration, yet the Catholic Church accepts the Protestant’s baptisms as being vaild. If we stayed within Scripture alone in debating baptismal regeneration, your view will be shown to be unbiblical when considering all of Scipture. Baptismal regeneration can only stand with Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church, but it can never stand in light of Scripture alone.

Is that so?

John 3:5
5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 2:38
38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16
16’Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’

1 COR 6:11
11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

1 Peter 3:19-21
19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,

20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

No scriptural basis huh?

 

[izoid]

And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Was the eunuch in the picture of the Church in the Bible? Isn’t this the unity that He desires?

Didn’t this take place right after the eunuch needed authoritative help in understanding the scriptures? No proof texting Adam. :dts:

 

[izoid]

There is no badge of honor of being a Calvinist. However, for being Catholic is quite different in the importance of being Catholic for the Catholic. In addition, John MacArthur is not a 71 year old great grandmother like Tweetymon. I think you will find that the majority of Reformed Christians do not really see MacArthur as being a rue Calvinists… whatever that means. There is a term called being “Truly Reformed” in Cavlinist’s circles. For me, what all that really matters is being Chrisitan since I do not believe that Calvinism saves. All that really matters for each person is moving from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light, for being in Christ is everything. All I’m trying to do is defend Tweetymom for the constant attacks from a few overzelous Catholics on this site, who have lost sight of 1 cor 13 in their defense of the Catholic Faith.

Izoid, how long have you been Catholic?

So you can determine who is and who isn’t in your circles but Catholics can not exercise the same discernment?

I think it is clear that Tweety and some of the other posters on this site have a history. From what I have seen, Tweety has some very non Catholic ideas regarding theology and morality. Age can not be used as a defense for this.

 

[guanophore]

Guan,

I believe your view is just plain wrong.

Of course you would have to believe this. Otherwise, you too would have to embrace that there is One Faith, One Baptism, One Church. As it is, you have worked around this idea of unity by clinging to the notion that the Bride of Christ is invisible, and is contained in every ecclesial community where “true believers” are found.

If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” - John 8

Who are you to tell any member of the Catholic Church that they are not Catholic? You have no authority to make such a statement.

Catholicism is not defined by any one member of the Church. Catholicity is defined by whether one adheres to the Apostolic doctrines that have been handed down to us. Tweety has stated that she does not accept these doctrines, therefore, her theological perspective lacks Catholicity. The authority is the Apostolic faith.

 Do you go around you local parish and try to determine who is truly Catholic?

No, but if someone claimed they were Catholic and purported non-Catholic faith and practice in public so as to cause a scandal, I would not hesitate.

It sure seems you have the equivalent view of Arminian Protestant’s version of fruit inspector.

Well, I think that is a separate issue, but it seems to me that the fruit of the Spirit is quite alive and well in my beloved sister Tweety. She is obviously struggling very hard to be “fruity” with me, and other members who have called her to account for her public scandal. Every time she feels insulted by us, she tried to turn the other cheek.

It sure seems that all who continue to disrespect Tweetymom our 71 year old greatgrandmother Catholic Christian will continue to lose credibility with all who read these posts.

As long as they don’t consider her a “credible Catholic” witness in her posts, then it will be worth the effort.

By your logic Guan, there might be 1/2 billion Protestants in the Catholic Church who think they are Catholic.

I believe this without reservation.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Is that so?

John 3:5
5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 2:38
38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16
16’Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’

1 COR 6:11
11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

1 Peter 3:19-21
19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,

20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

No scriptural basis huh?

Please go back to my post because I said all of Scirpture revelation, and not just taking a few verses out of proper context in light of all of Scirpture. When we pull a few verses out of porper context, we can create our own doctrine which is not necessarily the truth.

 

[guanophore]

How long have you been Catholic Izoid? I grew up with many close friends from childhood through college that were practicing Catholic. My college roommate’s twin brother who was also a friend of mine has been a Catholic Priest for at least 20 years. Most Catholics that I know are not quite the staunch Catholic like you and Guan… yet they are still valued members of the Catholic Church. Actually, I see Tweetymom to be way more Catholic than you and Guan combined due to her deep love for Jesus Christ. I believe a true Catholic like a true Evangelical are the ones who love God in Jesus Christ with great passion. ** Orthodox doctrine should fuel us in our love for Jesus Christ**.

It is curious, if this is the case, why Tweety rejects Orthodox Catholic doctrines.

Perhaps you support her in this because you don’t believe that what the Catholic Church teaches is from the Apostles, and therefore, is not “orthodox doctrine”, therefore, it cannot fuel any love for Christ.

You also seem to be falling for the fallacy that it is loving to confirm others in error. I wonder how you can see that this is not a loving act if the person is a Mormon, but if it is a person masquerading as Catholic who is really not, all of the sudden it is “unloving”.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
By your logic Guan, there might be 1/2 billion Protestants in the Catholic Church who think they are Catholic.

I believe this without reservation.

Are you saying that there can be 1/2 billion Protestants in the Catholic Church who think they are Catholics?

:extrahappy::harp::heaven:

Do you think the Pope is one of those who makeup the 1/2 billion Protesants in the Catholic Church in light of his teaching on justifcation…JUST KIDDING BROTHER… and Happy Thanksgiving to you. I need a break… my son wants to box with me.

 

[guanophore]

There is no badge of honor of being a Calvinist. However, for being Catholic is quite different in the importance of being Catholic for the Catholic.

I think this is true. For persons that understand their faith, being Catholic means being part of the Church founded by Christ, which He has preserved from error by the power of the HS. Those of us that have sojournhed among our separated brethren know that other ecclesial communities do not inherit this promise.

In addition, John MacArthur is not a 71 year old great grandmother like Tweetymon.

C’mon, 2nd. She is a tough lady! Who do you think stuck up for her before you came along. For a person with Protestant theology to be approved to teach in RCIA is quite a mark of confidence from her priest. It seems to me that she can back herself up pretty well.

I think you will find that the majority of Reformed Christians do not really see MacArthur as being a true Calvinist

Ok, so how come it is ok for y’all to do that, but when we do the same, we are “attacking” and failing in love?

All that really matters for each person is moving from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light, for being in Christ is everything.

Are we not all in agreement that Tweety has done this? If that is “all that matters”, why let all this bother you at all?

All I’m trying to do is defend Tweetymom for the constant attacks from a few overzelous Catholics on this site, who have lost sight of 1 cor 13 in their defense of the Catholic Faith.

It seems that you misunderstood 1 Cor.13 with warm fuzzies and covering up the truth. Love however, does not rejoice in the wrong.

No one here is attacking Tweety. We are observing that it is disingenuous for her to represent herself publicly as something she is not. By her own admission, she rejects the doctrines of the Catholic faith.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Is that so?

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”

Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. Jesus tells him “You should not be surprised at my saying" "You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?

Understand What ? Ezekiel 36

"'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. ** I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you**; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. "

What poured from Jesus’s body after the Roman pierced Jesus with his sword?

 

[2nd_Adam]

It is curious, if this is the case, why Tweety rejects Orthodox Catholic doctrines.

Perhaps you support her in this because you don’t believe that what the Catholic Church teaches is from the Apostles, and therefore, is not “orthodox doctrine”, therefore, it cannot fuel any love for Christ.

You also seem to be falling for the fallacy that it is loving to confirm others in error. I wonder how you can see that this is not a loving act if the person is a Mormon, but if it is a person masquerading as Catholic who is really not, all of the sudden it is “unloving”.

You can’t compare Mormonism with a Catholic Christian who does not think exactly like you. Discussing truth with a Mormon is of eternal consequences. In-house debates are within the family of God dealing with Christian growth.

 

[izoid]

“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”

Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. Jesus tells him “You should not be surprised at my saying" "You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?

Understand What ? Ezekiel 36

"'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. ** I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you**; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. "

What poured from Jesus’s body after the Roman pierced Jesus with his sword?

Do a quick comparison between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5. There is a clear threefold parallel in these verses. Look at the cross references also, they make clear that baptism is being referenced here.

Now, what about the other verses?

 

[The_Ambassador]

James 2:24,Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Please forgive me, but it seems to me that Catholics are utterly incapable of understanding the Biblical and Protestant doctrine that “justification is by faith alone, but not by the faith that is alone,” even though this formula has been present since the Reformation itself.

Justification is by a faith that works by love, and yet justification is in no way merited by the loving works of that faith. (This is the difference between Rome and the Reformed)

Why is it so hard for Catholics to understand our teaching?

Maybe it is because:

First, they know that faith without works is dead.

Second, they hear Protestants teach justification by faith alone “apart” from works.

Third, they don’t listen when Protestants explain that “apart from works” simply means “apart from the merit of works,” not “apart from the presence of works.”

Fourth, they hear many so-called Protestants, who also misunderstand Protestantism, teaching “easy-believism.”

Fifth, they know “easy-believism” is an utterly overwhelming argument against Protestantism (which it would be, if true Protestantism actually taught that).

Let me explain, therefore, once again what the biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone apart from works actually means.

Justification with God is apart from the merit of works.

That does not mean that justification is apart from the existence of works.

We must have faith in God’s grace.

This is not true.

We do not have faith in God’s grace, but in Christ himself, and him alone.

“By grace are ye saved through faith” simply means that it is a gracious thing for God to save us through faith, but in no way are we ever taught to believe in anything but Jesus Christ himself for salvation.