"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[tweetymom]

It is not “unkind” for us to point out to you that you are claiming to espouse a faith which you do not. I do understand that it seems unkind to you, because it hurts your feelings. You would like to maintain a sense of good conscience before God, and beleive you can do that even if you pick and choose which teachings of the Church you will reject.

No one here has claimed to be “so Catholic”. We are all judged by the same standard. We all fall short of the One Faith when we fail to embrace the Teachings committed to the Church by the Apostles.

Persons who are more honest about it, however, don’t list themselves as “Catholic”, because they realize there are some aspects of the faith they reject. It is not “wrong” for you to hold Protestant theology. That is where you are in your spiritual walk right now, and I agree with what 2nd posted on this. Some people are not yet well enough developed in their faith to recognize and accept the Truth. You stand in the tradition of Apollos. You are fervent in your faith, though it is incomplete and uninformed.

You seem to be getting very defensive here Tweety. No one here has said that we don’t have problems accepting everything. On the contrary, I have never met anyone here on CAF that has not struggled with one Teaching or another.

Also, no one here has tried to hold themselves up as an example of “what a true Catholic is supposed to act like”. You are just imagining that. Personally, my issue has to do with holding yourself out to be something you are not. And that does not have to do with being catholic or not. I would have that issue with anyone on here who claimed a faith they did not espouse.

I understand that you perceive it that way. We cannot help but perceive things according to our experiences and education (or lack of it). Apparently no one has confronted you about your duplicity, and you find it very upsetting.

On the contrary, I returned to the Catholic Church because I became convinced that I do NOT have the right answers. I decided to accept His promise that He would lead the Church into “all Truth”. He did not make this promise to individuals, but to the Church. As individuals, we can participate in that promise to the extent that we embrace the Truth that has been revealed to the Church.

This seems like a defensive and sarcastic response, Tweety. No one here has claimed to be “perfect before God”. I trust that your morals are as good as they can be, for one who rejects the Teachings of the Apostles. I am certain that you walk well within the degree of revelation you ahve received. I am sorry that your actions are harmful also, but this can be easily corrected by you whenever you are ready.

I am glad you realize that you do not want to be Catholic, at least in part, because other people have hurt your feelings. This is actually a very common reason that people reject ecclesial communities.

I also thank you for standing up for what you believe. It takes a lot of pluck to continually claim in a public forum that you espouse a faith that you do not, especially when you are given a lot of criticism about it. You are one tough lady!

No one here is 'lashing out" at you, Tweety. We have observed something about your behavior that is very concerning for us. We have given you feedback about it which you are unable to receive. You seem to prefer to see yourself as a victim, rather than maybe looking at the feedback to see if there might be some validity to it.

God bless you as you continue to do what you believe is right as well. I am convinced that God’s grace is sufficient to lead you into all Truth.

Thank you and I am one tough broad when it Comes to my faith in Jesus. I am Catholic and catholic and am thankful to Jesus everyday of my life. And you opinion is important to yourself not me .
And believe me you do not hurt my feelings except to feel sorry for you. And brother the one who does the correcting in my life is Jesus. So like I said God Bless you in whatever you do that you think God wants you to do.
I for one am thankful that you and others have me to kick around and it would hurt my feelings if you did not. I have seen you post in other threads about me when I wasn’t even on that thread and I chuckle and am glad you have me to use as your whipping post.

Like I said I AM A TOUGH lady and I love it when you talk about me. It assures me that Jesus is on my side.

 

[guanophore]

Okay Guan,

A Catholic Christian asked me about Adam and Eve and I tried to answer him. Since you posted that I miunderstood your position, please tell me why you do not believe in man’s free will over God’s sovereignity in salvation.

I did this, 2nd. You read something into it I did not say. I don’t know how to say it differently.

You seem to have some black and white thinking that you cannot get around. As long as you are trying to pidgeonhole people into your categories, you will run across people that don’t “fit”. You tried this with TULIP and DAISY also, and when I told you I reject both of them, you had nothing more to say!

Since you seem to say the Catholic Church cannot error in doctrine, please enlighten me as a non-Catholic Christian./quote]

Sorry, I am unable to 'enlighten" anyone as a non-Catholic Christian. I have accepted the Catholic faith. I am no longer “non-Catholic”.
2nd Adam;5986920:

I believe God is completely sovereign over all things. I

have no idea how you guys can have complete faith in God if God is not sovereign in your salvation.

This is where your prejudice prevents you from understanding others. CAtholics also believe in the complete sovereignty of God. We just understand it differently than you. Perhaps it is more important for you to categorize people, and cling to your prejudice than it is to understand our differences?

Do you believe God wants to save all His adopted children who are united to Christ, but He still wants His children to control their our destiny to the point of their death?

No.

Do you see how this is related to the sufficient of grace?

I can see how your warped perspective of what Catholics believe would take you there, yes.

BTW... the free will topic for both unbelievers and believers needs to driven by the Scriptures instead of human reasoning and human wisdom.

Well, 2nd, those who read the scriptures apart from the Apostolic Teaching ARE being “driven” by human wisdom and reasoning. The scriptures need to be understood in their context, and the context of the NT is the Catholic Church. The NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic. there are no Catholic doctrines that are not consistent with it.

So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven./QUOTE]

I am glad you brought this scripture. It has been on my mind with regard to the topic of “unforgivable sin” on the confession thread. The early Christians believed that believers who denied their faith to save their skins from the lions had spurned the blood that bought them, and that there remained no sacrifice for them.

 

[2nd_Adam]

It is not “unkind” for us to point out to you that you are claiming to espouse a faith which you do not. I do understand that it seems unkind to you, because it hurts your feelings. You would like to maintain a sense of good conscience before God, and beleive you can do that even if you pick and choose which teachings of the Church you will reject.

No one here has claimed to be “so Catholic”. We are all judged by the same standard. We all fall short of the One Faith when we fail to embrace the Teachings committed to the Church by the Apostles.

Persons who are more honest about it, however, don’t list themselves as “Catholic”, because they realize there are some aspects of the faith they reject. It is not “wrong” for you to hold Protestant theology. That is where you are in your spiritual walk right now, and I agree with what 2nd posted on this. Some people are not yet well enough developed in their faith to recognize and accept the Truth. You stand in the tradition of Apollos. You are fervent in your faith, though it is incomplete and uninformed.

You seem to be getting very defensive here Tweety. No one here has said that we don’t have problems accepting everything. On the contrary, I have never met anyone here on CAF that has not struggled with one Teaching or another.

Also, no one here has tried to hold themselves up as an example of “what a true Catholic is supposed to act like”. You are just imagining that. Personally, my issue has to do with holding yourself out to be something you are not. And that does not have to do with being catholic or not. I would have that issue with anyone on here who claimed a faith they did not espouse.

I understand that you perceive it that way. We cannot help but perceive things according to our experiences and education (or lack of it). Apparently no one has confronted you about your duplicity, and you find it very upsetting.

On the contrary, I returned to the Catholic Church because I became convinced that I do NOT have the right answers. I decided to accept His promise that He would lead the Church into “all Truth”. He did not make this promise to individuals, but to the Church. As individuals, we can participate in that promise to the extent that we embrace the Truth that has been revealed to the Church.

This seems like a defensive and sarcastic response, Tweety. No one here has claimed to be “perfect before God”. I trust that your morals are as good as they can be, for one who rejects the Teachings of the Apostles. I am certain that you walk well within the degree of revelation you ahve received. I am sorry that your actions are harmful also, but this can be easily corrected by you whenever you are ready.

I am glad you realize that you do not want to be Catholic, at least in part, because other people have hurt your feelings. This is actually a very common reason that people reject ecclesial communities.

I also thank you for standing up for what you believe. It takes a lot of pluck to continually claim in a public forum that you espouse a faith that you do not, especially when you are given a lot of criticism about it. You are one tough lady!

No one here is 'lashing out" at you, Tweety. We have observed something about your behavior that is very concerning for us. We have given you feedback about it which you are unable to receive. You seem to prefer to see yourself as a victim, rather than maybe looking at the feedback to see if there might be some validity to it.

God bless you as you continue to do what you believe is right as well. I am convinced that God’s grace is sufficient to lead you into all Truth.

The real problem I have with you Guan and Izoid is that you guys seem to be the standard and judge of what is truly Catholic. Sacred Tradition requires much interpertation. You cannot be the judge of what is truly Catholic because you do not have the authority to do that. I’ve been on Catholic Answers since August and there really is quite a bit of disunity on many issues on interpertation of the Catechism. I have a great suspicion that Izoid has been a Catholic for less than a year. You guys think that’s not a valid argument, but how can someone who has been a Catholic less than a year actually know that their personal beliefs are truly Catholic? My good buddy from Hawaii also has only been a Catholic for one year too.

 

[guanophore]

. Good morning Tweetymom,

I’m so sorry to continue to read the posts of a few Catholics who continue to attack you.

No one here is “attacking” Tweety, 2nd. She has said that she is at peace in her relationship with God, and that is all that matters to her. We have observed that she puts herself out to espouse a faith she does not. Taking note of this is not a personal attack, though I do agree with you that she takes it that way.

However, if it were true that the only thing that matters to her is that she is right with God, she would not continue to perpetuate a public scandal here at CAF. For some reason, this is an important thing for her to do as well. Apparently she is also fed by “many PM’s” that have encouraged her in her task of creating scandal.

. I think they like to use you as a pawn in their overzealous attempt to defend the Catholic Faith at all cost.

2nd, you seem to want to make a victim out of Tweety, but I think you are mistaken. My imnpression of her is that she is one tough lady. She is no “pawn” of anyones.

. I used to be the same way in regards to Calvinism, but I have personally have grown to understand that the body of Christ is quite diverse… much bigger than our own circles.

I agree with you. Tweety is most clearly a member of the Body of Christ. She is separated through departure from Aposotlic docdtrine, but indeed part of our diverse invisible mystical body of Christ.

. Tweetymon, you are such a godly model as both a Christian and a Catholic Christian.

This is an excellent example of why it is so damaging for Tweety to claim to be Catholic. She has evidently duped you into believing that a person can reject the doctrines of the One Faith, and still retain Catholicity. This is a gross error, and a stumbling block.

. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. - Romans 8:28

I am certain that all that has transpired here on CAF is for Tweety’s good.
:knight1::hug1::harp:

 

[The_Ambassador]

If man did not have the freewill to obey God or disobey Him, that would make God a liar, a cheat, and deceiver; because He throughout His dealings with mankind has commanded them to do something which He knew they could not do.

This is not true.

I could give you pages and pages of of proof, but I will limit myself to two very obvious examples:

1) God gave the Law through Moses.

Paul tells us that the purpose of the Law with all of its commandments, was not to teach man what he was capable of doing, but rather, its purpose was to teach man what he was not capable of doing.

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, in order that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for through the law is the knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:19, 20)

Paul just taught us that God’s purpose in giving the law was to make us conscious of our inability to be righteous (see Romans 3:10-18).

So how can you say that God has never commanded us to do that which we are inable to do? The commandments of God reveal to us what we ought to do, not what we can do.

2) God has commanded men to believe on Jesus Christ.

“And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ.” (1 John 3:23).

In John chapter 6 Jesus teaches that to come to him is to believe on him.

“He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst” (v. 35). So “coming” is “believing.”

But then Jesus declares, “no man can come to me.” (v.44).

How then, can God command everyone to come to Jesus, when “no man can come” to him?

The answer is that God did this in order that we might learn, that if we have come to Jesus for salvation, it is because God has drawn us. And if God has drawn us, then it is because God had already given us to Jesus. In this passage of John chapter 6, we have an overwhelming refutation of free will. Instead, we have the affirmation of the complete inability of man to come to Christ, and the absolute sovereignty of God in salvation.

Much more could be said, but for those who have ears to hear, this ought to suffice.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Guan,

Please take the time and explain your view and the Catholic view of free will and God’s sovereignity in salvation. I don’t want to distort the Catholic view, I just want to understand the official Catholic view.

 

[guanophore]

Adam and Eve had the free will choice and ability to obey the command of God to not to eat from the tree of knowledge. Their wills were not fallen like ours. God in His complete sovereignity placed the tree of knowledge in the garden, allowed Satan to be there to tempt Eve, and permitted and allowed to have everything play out exactly like it did… to the praise of His glorious grace. We know God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. God cannot be tempted by evil, nor can He do something evil. All that God does is wise, perfect, and glorious… worthy of our complete praise and worship. Because our human minds cannot understand the ways of God as revealed in Sacred Scripture, does not make it untrue. God does everything for His own glory, which is glorious, causing us to fall to our knees in worship of Him. Without the fall of man, we would not know the depths of the love of God as reveaeld at the cross…

Good. I am glad we are in agreement on these points. Since the Apostles did not teach “Total Depravity”, the same principles apply to us after the fall as they do before. God created man for Himself, for His own glory, and to have fellowship with Him forever.

 

[tweetymom]

No one here is “attacking” Tweety, 2nd. She has said that she is at peace in her relationship with God, and that is all that matters to her. We have observed that she puts herself out to espouse a faith she does not. Taking note of this is not a personal attack, though I do agree with you that she takes it that way.

However, if it were true that the only thing that matters to her is that she is right with God, she would not continue to perpetuate a public scandal here at CAF. For some reason, this is an important thing for her to do as well. Apparently she is also fed by “many PM’s” that have encouraged her in her task of creating scandal.

2nd, you seem to want to make a victim out of Tweety, but I think you are mistaken. My imnpression of her is that she is one tough lady. She is no “pawn” of anyones.

I am glad to take what you say yo me as I have stated. I am not causing a scandal here or any where else. Yes I am a pawn of Jesus. Glory Be.

I agree with you. Tweety is most clearly a member of the Body of Christ. She is separated through departure from Aposotlic docdtrine, but indeed part of our diverse invisible mystical body of Christ.

This is an excellent example of why it is so damaging for Tweety to claim to be Catholic. She has evidently duped you into believing that a person can reject the doctrines of the One Faith, and still retain Catholicity. This is a gross error, and a stumbling block.

I am certain that all that has transpired here on CAF is for Tweety’s good.
:knight1::hug1::harp:

 

[2nd_Adam]

Good. I am glad we are in agreement on these points. Since the Apostles did not teach “Total Depravity”, the same principles apply to us after the fall as they do before. God created man for Himself, for His own glory, and to have fellowship with Him forever.

Guan,

Please take the time and explain your view and the Catholic view of free will and God’s sovereignity in salvation. I don’t want to distort the Catholic view, I just want to understand the official Catholic view.

Please respond since you believe the Catholic Church cannot error in doctrine.

 

[Rocket_Man]

I think this is a wrong model. God is Love, and in HIm there is no darkness. The very notion of “overpower” seems contradictory to love, which sets free. I agree with you that the will of God is ultimately done, but within His sovereignty, He allows some to choose not to fulfill His desire for their lives. People can reject His purpose for themselves, and He allows this, because His love sets free.

Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away. **
Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee,**
that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

David understood that God choose him. His love is the source for His sovereign acts.

 

[tweetymom]

This is not true.

I could give you pages and pages of of proof, but I will limit myself to two very obvious examples:

1) God gave the Law through Moses.

Paul tells us that the purpose of the Law with all of its commandments, was not to teach man what he was capable of doing, but rather, its purpose was to teach man what he was not capable of doing.

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, in order that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for through the law is the knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:19, 20)

Paul just taught us that God’s purpose in giving the law was to make us conscious of our inability to be righteous (see Romans 3:10-18).

So how can you say that God has never commanded us to do that which we are inable to do? The commandments of God reveal to us what we ought to do, not what we can do.

2) God has commanded men to believe on Jesus Christ.

“And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ.” (1 John 3:23).

In John chapter 6 Jesus teaches that to come to him is to believe on him.

“He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst” (v. 35). So “coming” is “believing.”

But then Jesus declares, “no man can come to me.” (v.44).

How then, can God command everyone to come to Jesus, when “no man can come” to him?

The answer is that God did this in order that we might learn, that if we have come to Jesus for salvation, it is because God has drawn us. And if God has drawn us, then it is because God had already given us to Jesus. In this passage of John chapter 6, we have an overwhelming refutation of free will. Instead, we have the affirmation of the complete inability of man to come to Christ, and the absolute sovereignty of God in salvation.

Much more could be said, but for those who have ears to hear, this ought to suffice.

I have ears and thank you for the post.

 

[guanophore]

And as i was praising God yesterday on our trip to San Jose for Thanksgiving those verses popped up in my head and I really started praising the Lord. It is my honor when others defile me for my belief in Jesus and that is why we are Kin in the site of God. And I praise His Holy name.

This is where your thinking is very bent, Tweety. It is probably this same bent perception that leads you to believe you can claim to be Catholic, while rejecting Catholic doctrine.

No one here has defiled you for your belief in Christ, which we all affirm and appreciate. What we have criticized is the behavior of holding yourself out to be someone who espouses a faith you do not. Most definitely, you are a Christian,and have a fervent faith in God. Most definitely, your faith is not Catholic. As long as you continue to distort the nature of the feedback that has b een given to you, you will not be able to receive the message.

I believe that God’s grace is sufficient, and that He is sovereign, and He is able to overcome your disorted perceptions and reach into your heart. May it please HIm to do so.

 

[tweetymom]

No one here is “attacking” Tweety, 2nd. She has said that she is at peace in her relationship with God, and that is all that matters to her. We have observed that she puts herself out to espouse a faith she does not. Taking note of this is not a personal attack, though I do agree with you that she takes it that way.

However, if it were true that the only thing that matters to her is that she is right with God, she would not continue to perpetuate a public scandal here at CAF. For some reason, this is an important thing for her to do as well. Apparently she is also fed by “many PM’s” that have encouraged her in her task of creating scandal.

2nd, you seem to want to make a victim out of Tweety, but I think you are mistaken. My imnpression of her is that she is one tough lady. She is no “pawn” of anyones.

I agree with you. Tweety is most clearly a member of the Body of Christ. She is separated through departure from Aposotlic docdtrine, but indeed part of our diverse invisible mystical body of Christ.

This is an excellent example of why it is so damaging for Tweety to claim to be Catholic. She has evidently duped you into believing that a person can reject the doctrines of the One Faith, and still retain Catholicity. This is a gross error, and a stumbling block.

I am certain that all that has transpired here on CAF is for Tweety’s good.
:knight1::hug1::harp:

Glad you think so cause I am too it makes me really sure that Jesus is on my side.

 

[guanophore]

Nowhere does the Bible teach of a human freedom that exceeds the bounds of either:

1. God’s sovereign control, or
2. The condition of our own human nature.

Human Freedom Within the Boundaries of God’s Sovereign Rule

God has certainly endowed His creatures with a certain amount of freedom, but at no point does He allow our freedom to restrict His sovereignty. When our freedom bumps up against God’s freedom, God always wins. For instance, Lamentations 3:37 declares, “Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the LORD commandeth it not?” In other words, no one can say, “I will do this or that,” and have it happen, if it is not a part of God’s sovereign will.

The Apostle James also reminds us to be very careful with how we frame our words with respect to the future, and reminds us that the future is in the hands of God alone. He admonishes the autonomous thinking of proud men who claim, “today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and by and sell, and get a gain.” He sharply corrects this tendency to boast in our future accomplishments as he says, “for that, ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that” (James 4:13-15).

Clearly then, far from teaching any such pagan notion of human autonomy, the Bible plainly declares, “There are many devises in a man’s heart; nevertheless, the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand” (Proverbs 19:21)!

Human Freedom Within the Boundaries of Human Nature

The three faculties of the soul consist of the mind, the heart, and the will. The mind and heart of man directly influence the choices that a man makes, so that the will is not some separate entity that is free to act as its own sovereign.

In short, the will of man is free only within the boundaries of his own natural condition. Therefore, if we are to understand the extent of the will’s freedom, we will first have to determine the natural condition of both the mind and the heart of fallen man.

By consequence of the fall of Adam, all men are now born into the world as sinners, spiritually dead, and at enmity with God (Psalm 51:5; Romans 8:7, 8). The Bible demonstrates that our natures have been contaminated by sin, leaving the natural man with fallen and corrupted hearts and minds. This is no mere human deduction, but the plain testimony of Scripture:

**Our hearts are corrupt: ** The Bible plainly declares, “the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9). “And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” (Genesis 6:5). Jesus said, “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, and foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and defile a man" (Mark 7:21-23).

**Our minds are corrupt: ** The Bible goes on to declare, “the natural mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be” (Romans 8:7). The Apostle Paul reminded the Christians as Colossi of their natural condition prior to their conversion. “And you,” he reminded them, “were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works” (Colossians 1:21). And again in another place, the Apostle Paul declares that all, not some, but all natural men “walk in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them due to the blindness of their heart; who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to sensuality, to work all uncleanness with greediness” (Ephesians 4:17-19).

**Our wills are corrupt: ** As I have stated, the will is not a separate entity that is free to act as its own sovereign. Rather, the will is intimately related to the heart and mind. The moral choices we make are ultimately determined by the disposition of our hearts and minds. Therefore, with a fallen and corrupted heart desiring sin, and a fallen and corrupted mind being biased toward our own hearts, our wills are naturally inclined toward sin.

Jesus likewise taught that men are like trees. “Every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit” (Matthew 7:17).* “For figs are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush” (Luke 6:44).

The truth that Jesus is here communicating is that, even as the condition of a tree determines the nature of its fruit; so too, the condition of men determines the nature of the fruit they produce.

Jesus is not here saying that men do not make real choices; rather he is simply teaching that fallen and sinful men, because of their depraved and sinful condition naturally and consistently make sinful choices.

Our choices are a product of our moral condition, “O generation of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks” (Matthew 12:34)!

Thank you Ambassador, for this nice summary. Maybe 2nd will be able to hear this from you?

 

[tweetymom]

This is where your thinking is very bent, Tweety. It is probably this same bent perception that leads you to believe you can claim to be Catholic, while rejecting Catholic doctrine.

No one here has defiled you for your belief in Christ, which we all affirm and appreciate. What we have criticized is the behavior of holding yourself out to be someone who espouses a faith you do not. Most definitely, you are a Christian,and have a fervent faith in God. Most definitely, your faith is not Catholic. As long as you continue to distort the nature of the feedback that has b een given to you, you will not be able to receive the message.

I believe that God’s grace is sufficient, and that He is sovereign, and He is able to overcome your disorted perceptions and reach into your heart. May it please HIm to do so.

Once again I praise Jesus that you called me bent and distorted , I take delight in every rebuff from you. Praise be to God!

 

[guanophore]

Excellent post on the topic of free will and the sufficiency of His grace for those who know God through Christ.

God’s grace is equally sufficient for those who do NOT know God through Christ. The fact that they refuse to avail themselves of HIs sufficiency does not mean He is is not sufficient.

. Because we know God is completely sovereign… that we can have complete faith and assurance that God will finish the work that He started to the praise of His glorious sustaining grace!

Because He is sovereign, we can also have assurance that we will be cut off from the promises if we are disobedient to His commandments.

 

[guanophore]

How can God’s complete sovereignity not be related to the sufficiency of grace?

I was asking what free will had to do with it.

God is sovereign. God’s grace is sufficient. The will of man cannot “overpower” the sovereignty of God.

Personally brother, I have no idea how you can have faith in God to finish the work that He started in you if you remain sovereign in your redemption and salvation?

I don’t either. Since this construct is a figment of your imagination only, I am unable to explain it.

God has created man with free will.

In His sovereignty, God has placed limits around the freedom of man. Nothing that man does can exceed the limits of freedom that our sovereign God has ordained.

This means that man cannot be sovereign in his own redemption and salvation.

How can your love and affection grow for God, if God leaves it up to you to make it to Heaven knowing very well that we all struggle with sin in this life?

I can’t imagine.

This being another figment of your imagination, I am unable to explain it. Since you made it up, perhaps you can do so? Or, better yet, instead of discussion your imaginary constructs, why don’t we devote our attention to what Catholics actually believe?

Faith has an object in the person and work of Jesus Christ on our behalf.  The question: Is the person and work of Christ sufficient for us?

Indeed, He is all sufficient. There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved.

 

[guanophore]

Thank you and I am one tough broad when it Comes to my faith in Jesus.

This much is clear. :extrahappy::extrahappy:

 I am Catholic

I seems clear that you honestly believe you can claim to be Catholic, while rejecting Teachings of the Church. You appear to be very sincere in your rebellion.

(I) am thankful to Jesus everyday of my life. And you opinion is important to yourself not me

I am thankful everyday to Jesus for you also. However, I think you are not being honest with yourself. People do not get upset over things that are of “no importance”.

And believe me you do not hurt my feelings except to feel sorry for you. And brother the one who does the correcting in my life is Jesus.

May he do so quickly, so as to remove the stumbling block you have created for other members of CAF.

It is sad that you are unable to see God at work in your life through others, but He is, as the topic states, “sufficient” for all our shortcomings.

I for one am thankful that you and others have me to kick around ...

Sounds like an old Tricky Dick quote!

Are you a fan of his too? He also held himself out to be something he was not.

I have seen you post in other threads about me when I wasn’t even on that thread and I chuckle and am glad you have me to use as your whipping post.

Well, it is true that you do make a good point of example.

Since you seem to be proud of what you are doing, it is a mystery why you would conceive of it as “whipping post”. that seems to be the perspective of a victim, not one in triumph.

Like I said I AM A TOUGH lady and I love it when you talk about me. It assures me that Jesus is on my side.:thumbsup:

I thought you were. 2nd seems to think you are some weak little old lady that needs knightly protection, but it seems clear to me that you are well able to hold your own. I rejoice in your plucky nature.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Guanophore,

Please take the time and explain your view and the Catholic view of free will and God’s sovereignity in salvation. I don’t want to distort the Catholic view, I just want to understand the official Catholic view. Here’s your chance to show all us non-Catholic Christians that the Catholic Church is truly the One True Church that cannot error in the Faith in regards to doctrine.

 

[guanophore]

The real problem I have with you Guan and Izoid is that you guys seem to be the standard and judge of what is truly Catholic.

I can understand how it would seem that way to you and Tweety. It often happens that, when there is a voice crying in the wilderness, people blame the voice, rather than receive the message. However, it is not the case. The standard of what is Catholic comes from the Apostles, and is preserved in the Church. We are all accountable to the same standard. We are all eqully obligated not to place a stumbling block in front of others.

Sacred Tradition requires much interpertation.

This is true, and this is why Jesus had to appoint a Teaching Authority over the Church. Otherwise, we would be orphans.

You cannot be the judge of what is truly Catholic because you do not have the authority to do that.

Well, yes and no. Each Catholic has the responsibility to learn their faith, and to discern which actions are consistent with Catholic faith, and which are not. If we do not do this, we run the risk of participating in others sins. If I affirm that someone holds Catholic faith when they reject the Teachings of the Church, then I commit a sin. I am responsible to refrain from such sins, and I must exercise discernment in order to do this.

You are right, however, I do not have 'authority" to determnine Catholicity. This is done by the church. I can participate in the infallibility of the Church to the extent that I am in union with the Teachings.

I’ve been on Catholic Answers since August and there really is quite a bit of disunity on many issues on interpertation of the Catechism. I have a great suspicion that Izoid has been a Catholic for less than a year. You guys think that’s not a valid argument, but how can someone who has been a Catholic less than a year actually know that their personal beliefs are truly Catholic? My good buddy from Hawaii also has only been a Catholic for one year too.

I am sure we all have areas of growth in the faith, as you have correctly pointed out. “we all know in part” and are growing in grace daily. However, unity is based not upon the interpretation of separate individuals, but on adherance to the doctrine of the One Faith. To the extent that a person refuses that doctrine, they fall short of Catholicity. Tweety has been, to her credit, very honest about which parts of the doctrine she rejects.