"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[2nd_Adam]

I am sorry, 2nd, I can make no sense of this. Can you reword it?

Of course God saved His remnant chosen by grace in the worldwide judgement for sin in the Ark?

gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=hebrews+11

The Remnant of Israel - Rom 11

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. - Galatians 3:28

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. - Ephesians 1

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee [4] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, [5] to the praise of his glory.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Alas, you are like a wife whose husband has spread before her rose petals, wine, music, candlelight…yet who turns away in disgust at this Marital Embrace.

Perhaps this wife’s frigidity is a result of her childhood–I couldn’t say. However, she really doesn’t know what she’s missing, does she?

sigh!

I think that I explained earlier, the previous sacraments, baptism and confimation, should had prepared me through the Spirit to recieve communion in the knowledge and understanding you claim. However I was spiritually dead, so in my blind state, I didn’t turn away from anything.

In my mind, if the first and second sacraments didn’t hold up to what they claimed to be, spiritually enlightement of our Lord and Savior, then why should I consider your claim of the Eucharist?

 

[PRmerger]

I think that I explained earlier, the previous sacraments, baptism and confimation, should had prepared me through the Spirit to recieve communion in the knowledge and understanding you claim. However I was spiritually dead, so in my blind state, I didn’t turn away from anything.

In my mind, if the first and second sacraments didn’t hold up to what they claimed to be, spiritually enlightement of our Lord and Savior, then why should I consider your claim of the Eucharist?

I think my explanation was quite clear.

If your Beloved prepares everything to give Himself completely to you, yet you are frigid, the Beloved can do nothing to change that. He will not force Himself upon you.

 

[The_Ambassador]

PSALM 65:4 “Blessed is the man whom thou choosest and CAUSEST to approach unto thee.”

The Psalms are written in the language of poetry and song, and they do not lend themselves to drawing precise theological conclusions. “Caused” here does not mean “Made to” in the sense of “against their will”. It means “invited” or “made it possible for them” to, as other translations have rendered the same verse.

Zerinus, I believe that you are only partially correct, and therefore I am not fully persuaded that you truly understand the issue at hand.

We certainly are made to come, though it is not against our wills, but through a persuasion and overcoming of our wills. God works in us “both to will and to do, according to His good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13).

I also disagree that the Psalms are not designed to communicate precise theology, and affirm precise theological conclusions. The Psalms are where we receive a whole host of our Christological information about the sufferings of Christ - through the Messianic Psalms and so on. See Psalm 22 as an example, compared with Jesus’ own words in Luke 24:44. Also, note that Jesus quoted the Psalms in Luke 20:42 in order to demonstrate that he is Lord - even of King david. This is surely a theological conclusion derived and affirmed from the Psalms. Also, note that the author of Hebrews heavily quoted the Psalms, even in Hebrews 1, in order to establish the supremacy of Christ above the angels. Also, dont forget that Peter himself drew sure theological conclusions straight from the Psalms: (see Acts 1:20).

But getting back to this idea about God “causing” us to come to him:

What about the term “draw” in John 6:44?

The Greek term is elko which literally means “to pull with irresistable force.”

This definition is no human invention, but a biblical reality. This same term “elko” is translated elsewhere in the New Testament as “drag.”

“But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities.” (Acts 16:19)

“But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts?” (James 2:6)

So then, why does Jesus use this term when describing how The Father brings his people to Christ?

Clearly, when God draws (drags) men to Christ, He does so in a gracious way, as an irresistable persuasion of the heart, and not by external force.

This is like when a man falls in love with a woman, and cannot resist her beauty and splendor. And so he is drawn to her from his heart, and this drawing is so powerful, he cannot do anything *but *come.

In like manner, The Father gives His elect such a captivating revelation of Christ, in the beauty of his holiness and majesty, that the elect can do nothing but come.

“All that the Father giveth me, *shall come to me” *(John 6:37)

God did not force us against our wills, but He so worked in us by His omnipotent grace, that we found ourselves coming to Christ “being made willing in the day of His power” (Psalm 110:3).

I hope you will seriously consider these passages and take this matter up with the LORD in prayer.

 

[zerinus]

PSALM 65:4 “Blessed is the man whom thou choosest and CAUSEST to approach unto thee.”

Zerinus, I believe that you are only partially correct, and therefore I am not fully persuaded that you truly understand the issue at hand.

We certainly are made to come, though it is not against our wills, but through a persuasion and overcoming of our wills. God works in us “both to will and to do, according to His good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13).

I was commenting specifically on the verse he had quoted. I believe that his understanding of the verse was deficient for the reasons already stated, and I still adhere to that.

I also disagree that the Psalms are not designed to communicate precise theology, and affirm precise theological conclusions. The Psalms are where we receive a whole host of our Christological information about the sufferings of Christ - through the Messianic Psalms and so on. See Psalm 22 as an example, compared with Jesus’ own words in Luke 24:44. Also, note that Jesus quoted the Psalms in Luke 20:42 in order to demonstrate that he is Lord - even of King david. This is surely a theological conclusion derived and affirmed from the Psalms. Also, note that the author of Hebrews heavily quoted the Psalms, even in Hebrews 1, in order to establish the supremacy of Christ above the angels. Also, dont forget that Peter himself drew sure theological conclusions straight from the Psalms: (see Acts 1:20).

I agree that many important theological conclusions are drawn from the Psalms in the New Testament. That is provided that their poetic and song like character is taken into consideration. Because of that is it actually possible to read and understand them differently by different people, as the different translations demonstrate. Different translations render the Psalms very differently sometimes, so that it would be possible to draw completely different conclusions from them. They cannot all be right obviously.

But getting back to this idea about God “causing” us to come to him:

What about the term “draw” in John 6:44?

The Greek term is elko which literally means “to pull with irresistable force.”

This definition is no human invention, but a biblical reality. This same term “elko” is translated elsewhere in the New Testament as “drag.”

“But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities.” (Acts 16:19)

“But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts?” (James 2:6)

So then, why does Jesus use this term when describing how The Father brings his people to Christ?

Clearly, when God draws (drags) men to Christ, He does so in a gracious way, as an irresistable persuasion of the heart, and not by external force.

This is like when a man falls in love with a woman, and cannot resist her beauty and splendor. And so he is drawn to her from his heart, and this drawing is so powerful, he cannot do anything *but *come.

In like manner, The Father gives His elect such a captivating revelation of Christ, in the beauty of his holiness and majesty, that the elect can do nothing but come.

“All that the Father giveth me, *shall come to me” *(John 6:37)

God did not force us against our wills, but He so worked in us by His omnipotent grace, that we found ourselves coming to Christ “being made willing in the day of His power” (Psalm 110:3).

I hope you will seriously consider these passages and take this matter up with the LORD in prayer.

Again, I was commenting specifically on the verse he had quoted. I think that he had misunderstood that verse for the reasons stated. Now if you want to expand the topic to include John 6:37 and 6:44; you need to bear in mind that the essence of the discussion was whether man was free to choose God or reject Him; or whether he is predestined, which deprives him completely of his freewill. So I don’t know what conclusion you intend to draw from John 6. If you think it means that man is somehow predestined, I disagree. If you think it means that God draws to Himself those whom He has found worthy because of their good works and righteous desires, I agree. For your interest, I can inform you that in modern LDS scripture the Lord has explained whom He draws to Himself, how, and why:

D&C 84:

46 And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit.
47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.
48 And the Father teacheth him of the covenant which he has renewed and confirmed upon you, which is confirmed upon you for your sakes, and not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world.

Here is another interesting quote:

D&C 29:

7 And ye are called to bring to pass the gathering of mine elect; for mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts;

So God does not arbitrarily decide whom to draw to Himself and whom not to. He does that on the basis of how they respond to Him in the first place. If they “hear His voice” and “harden not their hearts” and “hearken to the voice of His Spirit,” then He draws them. If they don’t, then He won’t.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Yes. This is a condition of anyone who is not in a state of grace. Sin pulls against us like a rip tide, and we must constantly be moving the other way, or we are swept out into the sea of sin.

How can grace be grace if we must be constantly moving the other way? I thought “moving the right way” was the work of sacitifying grace. So, in this twist, it could only been true if I were indeed enlightened in the grace I recieved and turned from it. But I tell you again that I was spiritually dead. How could I know? And how could the power of instruction through knowledge of Catechism been more effective than recieving the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit?

 

[guanophore]

I never said that fallen mankind was not made in the image of God.  All human beings are made in the image of God in a fallen way. But none of us are made in the image of God like Adam.  We are made in the image of fallen Adam, just like Seth.

Please explain how being made in Adam’s image is different than being made in the image of God, and how, if fallen mankind still has the image of God, how is it that he is not made in the of God. Or, do you mean only Adam?

Genesis 5

This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created. When Adam had lived years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. The days of Adam after he fathered Seth were 800 years; and he had other sons and daughters. Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died.

2nd Adam;5990437:

Please consider Romans 5 and 1 Cor 15, and study about federal headship, and representation of the first Adam and the 2nd Adam.

Oh, yeah. I FORGOT about federalism!

Do you believe, then, that when we are regenerated, we are not returned to the image of God, as Adam was created? If not, what is different with the regenerated man?

 

[guanophore]

I think that I explained earlier, the previous sacraments, baptism and confimation, should had prepared me through the Spirit to recieve communion in the knowledge and understanding you claim. However I was spiritually dead, so in my blind state, I didn’t turn away from anything.

If you participated in sacramental life, then yes, you were turning away from available grace. However, having had a similar experience myself, I am very clear about how this happens. I was following a form of godliness, without the power thereof.

I disagree with you , though, that sacraments “should lhave prepared you”. A person is prapared for the sacreamental life by proper spiritual formation and catechesis. Once a person is properly disposed, on can maintain a state of grace through sacraments, and they will prepare the soul for all that God desires, but in isolation, without any foundation, they have limited effectiveness. Baptism, for example, washes away all sin, both original and personal. However, if a person is not taught how to live an upright life, the purified state obtained in baptism is lost.t.

In my mind, if the first and second sacraments didn’t hold up to what they claimed to be, spiritually enlightement of our Lord and Savior, then why should I consider your claim of the Eucharist?

Not on this thread. I agree with PR, you have no way of knowing how much worse off you might be without them.

How can grace be grace if we must be constantly moving the other way? I thought “moving the right way” was the work of sacitifying grace.

Yes, of course! How is it less grace if you strive to pursue it? And I agree, moving the right way IS the work of sanctifying grace. We are responsible to receive and walk in that grace, working out what is at work in us. To do this we must constantly flee evil and pursue the good.

So, in this twist, it could only been true if I were indeed enlightened in the grace I recieved and turned from it.

More likely, you received grace in your baptism, and lacked an adequate spiritual formation. I grew up in a very dysfunctional family that did not teach me any spritual disciplines such as prayer or bible reading.

But I tell you again that I was spiritually dead. How could I know? And how could the power of instruction through knowledge of Catechism been more effective than recieving the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit?

I was not blaming you, Rocket, or suggesting that you should have 'known". In my case, I was failed by parents who promised to raise me in the faith, then gave poor examples, and godparents who promised the same, but did nothing. The catechisis I received at the parish was dismal. There is enough fault to go around.

And how could the power of instruction through knowledge of Catechism been more effective than recieving the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit?

I bought a new appliance on black Friday. It is still sitting there in the box because I have not yet mad my way through the instructions. It potentially could sit there indefinitely, if I do not know how to use it right, or take it out of the box and try. The gift and the instruction need to go together.

Spiritual formation is also a matter of being around persons fervent in faith who are good examples. If someone else had one of these widgets, and I knew how to use it before I purchased it, I might not even need the book! This is how things were done before books were invented.

Remember what Paul said to Timothy? What you have seen and heard in me, do.

 

[Rocket_Man]

I feel compelled to answer this post of yours, even though you failed to answer my post on baptism. I would still like it if you would review the verses I provided you and help me understand what they mean

I think I did reply (#218) to your request to do a quick comparison between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5.

“Paul is teaching Titus about God’s grace that starts way back in chapter 2. The thrust of Pauls teaching is that we are saved by God’s grace, and not at all by any actions on our part. It is not a endorsement of spiritual regeneration gained through baptism, rather it’s about the origin and nature of God’s saving grace. God gave us the regeneration as well as the Holy Spirit to prepare us to serve Him” You should go back and read all of it again.

He fact is, all churches have sinful people in them. It is not an indictment on the legitimacy of the organization, it is proof that they are responding to God’s call to evangelize and love each other.

I am well aware that we are sinners. I’m only commenting on the claims that the Holy Spirit is active at work in the sacraments, these aren’t claims made by all faiths. But I’ll tell you a story about the rest of your comment.(God’s call to evangelize and love each other).

In Luke 15:3-7 Jesus told them this parable.

“Which of you men, if you had one hundred sheep, and lost one of them, wouldn’t leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one that was lost, until he found it? When he has found it, he carries it on his shoulders, rejoicing. When he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I tell you that even so there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous people who need no repentance.”

I think on the previous posts, I told you my going back to the Catholic Church after Jesus Christ was revealed as Lord and Savior through reading His Holy Word. I told many people of the same redemption story, of how I was dead in my sin and how He delivered me from death unto life through the work of Jesus Christ. I wanted to share this story to the world and give praise to Him and Him alone for the deed He had done. I wanted to tell others that He was indeed real, and they could come to Him and recieve forgiveness for their sin, and He would recieve them with the arms of His everlasting love.

But, none of the catholics that I told this story, ever rejoiced along with me. Why is that? Because in the parable above, the man who found His lost sheep, called all His freinds and neighbors to rejoice along with Him. But the catholics weren’t rejoicing with me nor were they rejoicing along with the hosts in heaven. So I left the church again, to find others who would rejoice along with me, for they knew the marvelous work that Christ had done, for it was written upon their hearts.

 

[zerinus]

God spared the remnant for His own good pleasure, His own glory and our good.

That is just plain false. The righteous are spared for their righteousness, not because of an arbitrary decision by God. Noah was spared because he was righteous, the scriptures already cited. The same was true of Lot. Both the Old Testament account and Peter in the New Testament confirm that they were spared because they were found righteous. In the Old Testament Abraham remonstrates with God to spare the entire city for the sake of just a few righteous that may be found in it, and God agrees:

Genesis 18:

23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty’s sake.
30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty’s sake.
32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake.

He starts with fifty, and ends with ten! God promises Abraham that if there were just ten righteous people in that city, He would spare the entire city of the wicked Sodomites for the same of the ten. But in the end not even ten was found, therefore God destroyed it. Lot was the only righteous man found in the city, so he was spared while the rest were destroyed. And the quote I gave from Peter tells us that that is what God does. He only destroys the wicked, and spares the righteous. He does not save or destroy anyone by an arbitrary decision.

Abel was part of the remnant chosen by grace. Why do you think God found favor with Abel and not Cain?

Because Abel was righteous and Cain was wicked:

Matthew 23:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

 

[izoid]

I think I did reply (#218) to your request to do a quick comparison between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5.

“Paul is teaching Titus about God’s grace that starts way back in chapter 2. The thrust of Pauls teaching is that we are saved by God’s grace, and not at all by any actions on our part. It is not a endorsement of spiritual regeneration gained through baptism, rather it’s about the origin and nature of God’s saving grace. God gave us the regeneration as well as the Holy Spirit to prepare us to serve Him” You should go back and read all of it again.

You are severely mislead in your interpretation. Even John Calvin acknowledges that Titus 3:5 is referring to baptism. I think it is you that needs to fully develop the ideas of these passages.

I listed about 5 or 6 verses, you did not address them all. You choose John and Titus and interpreted them in isolation of one another even though these are parallel verses. Please answer my question relating to how the other verses can be explained away. While you are at it; what type of baptism did John preach? Hint: Mark 1:4.

I am well aware that we are sinners. I’m only commenting on the claims that the Holy Spirit is active at work in the sacraments, these aren’t claims made by all faiths. But I’ll tell you a story about the rest of your comment.(God’s call to evangelize and love each other).

In Luke 15:3-7 Jesus told them this parable.

“Which of you men, if you had one hundred sheep, and lost one of them, wouldn’t leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one that was lost, until he found it? When he has found it, he carries it on his shoulders, rejoicing. When he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I tell you that even so there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous people who need no repentance.”

I think on the previous posts, I told you my going back to the Catholic Church after Jesus Christ was revealed as Lord and Savior through reading His Holy Word. I told many people of the same redemption story, of how I was dead in my sin and how He delivered me from death unto life through the work of Jesus Christ. I wanted to share this story to the world and give praise to Him and Him alone for the deed He had done. I wanted to tell others that He was indeed real, and they could come to Him and recieve forgiveness for their sin, and He would recieve them with the arms of His everlasting love.

But, none of the catholics that I told this story, ever rejoiced along with me. Why is that? Because in the parable above, the man who found His lost sheep, called all His freinds and neighbors to rejoice along with Him. But the catholics weren’t rejoicing with me nor were they rejoicing along with the hosts in heaven. So I left the church again, to find others who would rejoice along with me, for they knew the marvelous work that Christ had done, for it was written upon their hearts.

Again, you are basing the legitimacy of the Church on YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE. This is very dangerous! Every negative experience that you had in the Catholic church has been, and will continue to be, experienced by people in every church on earth. Your are continuously making claims against the Catholic Church because you were not treated the way you felt you should have been. I really think you need to revaluate your criteria. It is often that you will need to submit your feelings and desires to those of God. He never promised you “warm fuzzies” when you go to church.

 

[Rocket_Man]

I bought a new appliance on black Friday. It is still sitting there in the box because I have not yet mad my way through the instructions. It potentially could sit there indefinitely, if I do not know how to use it right, or take it out of the box and try. The gift and the instruction need to go together.

One ministry of the Holy Spirit is to proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord. He does not live in a dead instruction booklet but lives in the hearts of man. He glorifies God’s Word by revealing the risen Christ to us when we turn to it for instruction.

 

[PRmerger]

One ministry of the Holy Spirit is to proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord. He does not live in a dead instruction booklet but lives in the hearts of man. He glorifies God’s Word by revealing the risen Christ to us when we turn to it for instruction.

Amen! Very Catholic position you’re proclaiming, Rocket!

 

[Rocket_Man]

Again, you are basing the legitimacy of the Church on YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE. This is very dangerous! Every negative experience that you had in the Catholic church has been, and will continue to be, experienced by people in every church on earth. Your are continuously making claims against the Catholic Church because you were not treated the way you felt you should have been. I really think you need to revaluate your criteria. It is often that you will need to submit your feelings and desires to those of God. He never promised you “warm fuzzies” when you go to church.

And your use of words like “warm fuzzies” tell me that you have no understanding of what I write. It may be because of your involvement with these mega-churches that did sell God and feelings that you shape this opinion. The scripture proves you wrong.

 

[izoid]

And your use of words like “warm fuzzies” tell me that you have no understanding of what I write. It may be because of your involvement with these mega-churches that did sell God and feelings that you shape this opinion. The scripture proves you wrong.

Mega Churches…what mega churches?

You have a bad habit, much like 2ndAdam, of claiming the scriptures prove me wrong yet you fail to provide any of those scriptures.
Your entire testimony is based upon your feelings. You never allude to the fruits of your walk, only how it makes you feel as compared to the Catholic Church. Maybe “warm fuzzies” was an inappropriate way to describe it. I just see you basing the reality of a situation upon your experience. There is no scripture that will support that method. Truth is truth, how you feel when faced with that truth is irrelevant!

BTW…are you, Adam and Ambassador the same person?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Mega Churches…what mega churches?

You have a bad habit, much like 2ndAdam, of claiming the scriptures prove me wrong yet you fail to provide any of those scriptures.
Your entire testimony is based upon your feelings. You never allude to the fruits of your walk, only how it makes you feel as compared to the Catholic Church. Maybe “warm fuzzies” was an inappropriate way to describe it. I just see you basing the reality of a situation upon your experience. There is no scripture that will support that method. Truth is truth, how you feel when faced with that truth is irrelevant!

BTW…are you, Adam and Ambassador the same person?

I am not Ambassador. However, I think Ambassador’s postings are generally better than mine. So, thanks for the compliment Izoid. I am not Rocket-Man either. You guys are quite paranoid.

 

[guanophore]

One ministry of the Holy Spirit is to proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord. He does not live in a dead instruction booklet but lives in the hearts of man. He glorifies God’s Word by revealing the risen Christ to us when we turn to it for instruction.

Indeed! And this sounds like the catechesis you did not get, maybe at home, maybe at church, maybe both. Catechesis means “to echo”, it is the teaching of the Apostles, faithfully and accurately echoed across the generations. I agree, it does not live in an instruction book, but in the heart. However, it seems that, if it lived in the hearts of anyone around you as a youth, you could not notice!

 

[tweetymom]

I think I did reply (#218) to your request to do a quick comparison between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5.

“Paul is teaching Titus about God’s grace that starts way back in chapter 2. The thrust of Pauls teaching is that we are saved by God’s grace, and not at all by any actions on our part. It is not a endorsement of spiritual regeneration gained through baptism, rather it’s about the origin and nature of God’s saving grace. God gave us the regeneration as well as the Holy Spirit to prepare us to serve Him” You should go back and read all of it again.

I am well aware that we are sinners. I’m only commenting on the claims that the Holy Spirit is active at work in the sacraments, these aren’t claims made by all faiths. But I’ll tell you a story about the rest of your comment.(God’s call to evangelize and love each other).

In Luke 15:3-7 Jesus told them this parable.

“Which of you men, if you had one hundred sheep, and lost one of them, wouldn’t leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one that was lost, until he found it? When he has found it, he carries it on his shoulders, rejoicing. When he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I tell you that even so there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous people who need no repentance.”

I think on the previous posts, I told you my going back to the Catholic Church after Jesus Christ was revealed as Lord and Savior through reading His Holy Word. I told many people of the same redemption story, of how I was dead in my sin and how He delivered me from death unto life through the work of Jesus Christ. I wanted to share this story to the world and give praise to Him and Him alone for the deed He had done. I wanted to tell others that He was indeed real, and they could come to Him and recieve forgiveness for their sin, and He would recieve them with the arms of His everlasting love.

But, none of the catholics that I told this story, ever rejoiced along with me. Why is that? Because in the parable above, the man who found His lost sheep, called all His freinds and neighbors to rejoice along with Him. But the catholics weren’t rejoicing with me nor were they rejoicing along with the hosts in heaven. So I left the church again, to find others who would rejoice along with me, for they knew the marvelous work that Christ had done, for it was written upon their hearts.

I do understand where you are coming from, been there done that! Bless you Brother

 

[guanophore]

I do understand where you are coming from, been there done that! Bless you Brother

Did you really, Tweety? I don’t think I read why you left the Catholic Church. Did you feel spiritually “dead” also?

I was alive enough to know I was starving! I, like Rocket, experienced no power or divine life in the sacraments. I did not have the power of the Spirit at work in my life. I was yearning to know more about God, and it seemed that I did not know any Catholics that understood that, or could help me.

I went with some Baptists, who showed me how to read the Scripture, and my spiritual life began to grow. There was a Pentecostal event in that Baptist Church, and those who received and began using the gifts of the Spirit separated from the others, who believed that the gifts were withdrawn when the Scripture was written. I went with the Pentecostals because I wanted the personal experience of the HS that I saw in the lives of other people in that congregation.

God had to work on me for a long time before I was ready to return to the sacramental life of the Church. I was like you, too, I was a cafeterial Catholic for a long time.

 

[The_Ambassador]

If you think [John 6] means that God draws to Himself those whom He has found worthy because of their good works and righteous desires, I agree.

I am sorry to hear that you are being misinformed by your religious book, but the word of God - *The Bible *- teaches that from beginning to end, salvation is entirely of the LORD. This includes election.

**The Testimony of Scripture **

“For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth” (Deut. 7:6). These words were originally spoken to the physical nation of Israel, because Israel served as a type and model of the entire Church of Jesus Christ. Therefore, just as God had an elect people in the Old Testament – through whom He purposed to bring the Savior into the world – He also has an elect people today. “Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace” (Romans 11:5).

The interesting thing about these passages is that they both make it very clear that election is entirely “of grace” and not the result of works. In other words, God does not choose us based upon anything we do, or any personal virtue we possess.

Notice that in Deuteronomy 7, the very next line states, “The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you” (v. 7, 8a). Likewise, the very next line of Romans 11 tells us that since election is of grace, “then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work” (v. 6).

2 Tim. 1:9 states that God “hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.” This passage, in addition to affirming that salvation is “not according to our works,” also informs us that we were saved according to God’s “own purpose and grace,” and that this grace was actually given to us in Christ Jesus – “before the world began!”

In other words, the very fact that election took place in eternity proves that it could not possibly have been based upon anything that we will perform in time. This is made even more explicit in Romans 9, where the apostle Paul – (speaking of Jacob and Esau) – explains that God’s choice among them took place at a time when “the children, being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, in order that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, it was said to her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (vv. 11, 12).

Does Sovereign Election Make God Unjust?

Perhaps the greatest misconception among the religious world today is the idea that God is somehow obligated to make salvation available to every man. This is simply not true.
God is never depicted in Scripture as being under any such obligation to His creatures. The fact is, God has made it very plain in His word that salvation is a *divine privilege *– not a human right.

Therefore, to insist that sovereign election somehow makes God unjust is to completely transform the very nature of salvation itself. Salvation is a gracious gift, which God bestows upon unworthy, and hell-deserving sinners. If men were innocent, then the justice of God would certainly protect and deliver all men from any threat of condemnation. But men are not innocent; instead we are all guilty of sin.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 states, “For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.” Far from depicting men as being innocent, the Bible describes humanity as “abominable and filthy,” and testifies that all men “drinketh iniquity like water” (Job 15:16)! The apostle Paul sums it up quite powerfully as he declares, “There is none righteous, no, not one” (See Romans 3:10-17)!

In light of the fact that all men are guilty of sin, and worthy of condemnation, we are forced to admit that salvation itself must be an act of divine mercy – not human justice. In fact, what justice actually means is that all men get exactly what they deserve. Therefore, it would be the height of madness for an unjust sinner to charge God with an injustice for giving him what he deserves! In fact, God would have been perfectly just in passing by all men, choosing to save none, and leaving the entire race to perish for their sins. This is just the hard and humbling truth, no matter how you look at it. Ultimately, God is not obligated to save even a single sinner.

But election is an act of pure grace, whereby God, out of the good pleasure of His own will, chooses to bestow His sovereign mercy upon “a great multitude which no man can number” (Revelation 9:7-10). How then can men despise God for being merciful to millions, when the reality is, all men deserve His just and holy wrath on account of their own sins?

Imagine if someone owed you a thousand dollars, and then turned around and accused you of an injustice for not erasing the debt! Imagine how it would feel to learn that this person – though he is a debtor to you – actually views you as being a debtor to him? Truth be told, this is exactly how the opponents of sovereign election treat the very God of the Universe!

Those who oppose the doctrine of election are only demonstrating their personal enmity against God’s sovereignty and against His abundant goodness. Therefore, whether they realize it or not, those who oppose this doctrine are actually opposing the very God who sovereignly declares, “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion” (Romans 9:16)!