"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[izoid]

I’d rather hear your words on the issue.

I have learned that wen dealing with you, your approach is to misrepresent Catholic teachings and claim them to be accurate. Read the article to understand the Churches view on contraception. If you choose not to, I will no longer discus the issue with you. Others might but I will not.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I have learned that wen dealing with you, your approach is to misrepresent Catholic teachings and claim them to be accurate. Read the article to understand the Churches view on contraception. If you choose not to, I will no longer discus the issue with you. Others might but I will not.

I have one question I would like you to answer in regards to birth control. Are Protestants in perpetual sin in our practice of temporary and permanent forms of birth control?

 

[izoid]

I have one question I would like you to answer in regards to birth control. Are Protestants in perpetual sin in our practice of temporary and permanent forms of birth control?

If you know the teachings of the Church and the Bible yet continue to practice birth control, yes you are. If your permanent birth control was performed when you did not know it was a sin it is not considered a mortal sin, it does need to be confessed however. Once any of us are made aware of any sin, contaception or others, it needs to be confessed.

I don’t hold to the idea that there is such a thing as Catholic sin and protestant sin. It seems like maybe you do? I always thought if it was a sin, it was sin for all mankind.

Did you read the article?

 

[2nd_Adam]

If you know the teachings of the Church and the Bible yet continue to practice birth control, yes you are. If your permanent birth control was performed when you did not know it was a sin it is not considered a mortal sin, it does need to be confessed however. Once any of us are made aware of any sin, contaception or others, it needs to be confessed.

Did you read the article?

Amazing… truly amazing… wow!

 

[izoid]

Amazing… truly amazing… wow!

I think you meant to say, Biblical…truly Bibliclal…wow!

Why is it amazing?

Do you believe that God judges sin based on man and his definition of sin? You are getting very close to affirming this with your Catholic sin vs protestant sin theme. Tread lightly Adam.

 

[Philthy]

Are Protestants in perpetual sin in our practice of temporary and permanent forms of birth control?

That would depend on the type of birth control you employ. If you employ a form of birth control which deliberately separates the conjugal union from God’s Sovereignty and Wisdom in determining whether He wishes to create new life (ie you trust yourselves and your thoughts over His), then yes, that would be sinful. If you use a form of birth control which allows God to remain Sovereign(abstinence, NFP) then it is not sinful.
Humanae Vitae puts it something like this:
Any sexual act which in its accomplishment seeks to render procreation impossible, is sinful.
Basically, when we choose to actively avoid the possibility of pregnancy in the accomplishment of a sexual act, we are saying that we don’t completely trust God in this area of our lives. At least that is how I have come to understand my struggle in this area…and I dont believe there is really that much wiggle room when we are honest with ourselves.

Blessings!

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t hold to the idea that there is such a thing as Catholic sin and protestant sin. It seems like maybe you do? I always thought if it was a sin, it was sin for all mankind.

Indeed.

It’s similar to the abortion argument. It’s not simply a Catholic sin. If it’s murder for Catholics, it’s murder for all mankind.

(And, isn’t abortion really a result of the birth control mentality–one simply cannot discuss contraception without discussing its logical completion: the right to abort once contraception has failed.)

 

[2nd_Adam]

Indeed.

It’s similar to the abortion argument. It’s not simply a Catholic sin. If it’s murder for Catholics, it’s murder for all mankind.

(And, isn’t abortion really a result of the birth control mentality–one simply cannot discuss contraception without discussing its logical completion: the right to abort once contraception has failed.)

That’s too much, linking birth control with abortion among Christians. You know as wells as I know, that many Catholics use birth control all the time. I think the birth control debate should stay within the wall of the Catholic Church… please keep the Protestant Christians out of that one.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I think you meant to say, Biblical…truly Bibliclal…wow!

Why is it amazing?

Do you believe that God judges sin based on man and his definition of sin? You are getting very close to affirming this with your Catholic sin vs protestant sin theme. Tread lightly Adam.

That’s true, since our sources of divine revelation are completly different. Protestants are bound by the Word of God (Sacred Scripture). Catholics are bound by the Magestrium. That was settled at the Protestant Reformation. The Magestrium cannot bound Christians that are not Catholic. I’m so glad for Sola Scriptura as being the authorative truth from above.

 

[izoid]

That’s too much, linking birth control with abortion among Christians. You know as wells as I know, that many Catholics use birth control all the time. I think the birth control debate should stay within the wall of the Catholic Church… please keep the Protestant Christians out of that one.

You, my friend, are the one that brought protestants into this one.

Were you aware that virtually all protestant denominations prohibited birth control as late as 1930?

 

[izoid]

That’s true, since our sources of divine revelation are completly different. Protestants are bound by the Word of God (Sacred Scripture). Catholics are bound by the Magestrium. That was settled at the Protestant Reformation. The Magestrium cannot bound Christians that are not Catholic. I’m so glad for Sola Scriptura as being the authorative truth from above.

Genesis 38:8-10.

Now, I gave you my verse for birth control, you give me yours to support sola scriptura.

 

[izoid]

Quote:
Originally Posted by izoid
I think you meant to say, Biblical…truly Bibliclal…wow!

Why is it amazing?

Do you believe that God judges sin based on man and his definition of sin? You are getting very close to affirming this with your Catholic sin vs protestant sin theme. Tread lightly Adam.

That’s true, since our sources of divine revelation are completly different. Protestants are bound by the Word of God (Sacred Scripture). Catholics are bound by the Magestrium. That was settled at the Protestant Reformation. The Magestrium cannot bound Christians that are not Catholic. I’m so glad for Sola Scriptura as being the authorative truth from above.

What is true? Surely not that God has seperate sins for Catholics than He does for protestants, does He Adam?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Quote:
Originally Posted by izoid
I think you meant to say, Biblical…truly Bibliclal…wow!

Why is it amazing?

Do you believe that God judges sin based on man and his definition of sin? You are getting very close to affirming this with your Catholic sin vs protestant sin theme. Tread lightly Adam.

What is true? Surely not that God has seperate sins for Catholics than He does for protestants, does He Adam?

Sin is sin…

However, all sin is against God, and He determines what is sin against Him. God speaks authoratively through special revelation known by Catholics as Sacred Scripture. Protestants are not bound by tradition or the Magestrium when determining the Christian Faith in life and in doctrine. The Magestrium and Tradition does not bind the conscience of Protestant Christians. Some things are crystal clear in Scripture. We believe life begins at conception. Actually, I believe life begins before conception… I believe life begins in the mind of God prior to conception. However, the Catholic position on birth control and most other things are not defined within sola scirptura, but rather the Catholic Faith is defined by Scripture and Tradition, meaning the Magestrium binds the Catholic conscience. It’s similar to the prohibition of marriage of your Priests and Nuns…that’s an unbiblical view. We all know that Peter was married.

 

[izoid]

Sin is sin…

However, all sin is against God, and He determines what is sin against Him. God speaks authoratively through special revelation known by Catholics as Sacred Scripture. Protestants are not bound by tradition or the Magestrium when determining the Christian Faith in life and in doctrine. The Magestrium and Tradition does not bind the conscience of Protestant Christians. Some things are crystal clear in Scripture. We believe life begins at conception. Actually, I believe life begins before conception… I believe life begins in the mind of God prior to conception. However, the Catholic position on birth control and most other things are not defined within sola scirptura, but rather the Catholic Faith is defined by Scripture and Tradition, meaning the Magestrium binds the Catholic conscience. It’s similar to the prohibition of marriage of your Priests and Nuns…that’s an unbiblical view. We all know that Peter was married.

I sense a diversion here. What about Genesis 38 that I referred you to above?

Since Scripture does teach that tradition is binding, it is therefore binding on ALL mankind.

If you can prove sola scriptura we could end this senseless banter regarding authority but since it is not in the Bible I think you are avoiding the issues.

Do you think that fallen man is not guilty of sin simply because he refuses to submit to God’s authority? How about Budhists, Hindus or your favirite LDS? If not, why then is it any different for protestants?

 

[izoid]

Sin is sin…

However, all sin is against God, and He determines what is sin against Him. God speaks authoratively through special revelation known by Catholics as Sacred Scripture. Protestants are not bound by tradition or the Magestrium when determining the Christian Faith in life and in doctrine. The Magestrium and Tradition does not bind the conscience of Protestant Christians. Some things are crystal clear in Scripture. We believe life begins at conception. Actually, I believe life begins before conception… I believe life begins in the mind of God prior to conception. However, the Catholic position on birth control and most other things are not defined within sola scirptura, but rather the Catholic Faith is defined by Scripture and Tradition, meaning the Magestrium binds the Catholic conscience. It’s similar to the prohibition of marriage of your Priests and Nuns…that’s an unbiblical view. We all know that Peter was married.

What are the “most other things”? Such generalized mis statements truly damage your credibility. Can you please stick to defined teachings please?

 

[2nd_Adam]

You, my friend, are the one that brought protestants into this one.

Were you aware that virtually all protestant denominations prohibited birth control as late as 1930?

Oh, the visible church has been wrong on many issues throughout the ages such as racial discrimination, support of American slavery, gender discrimination, divorce discrimination, and currently sexual orientation discrimination. The visible church is made up of redeemed sinners who are all sinners in process who know in part and unregenerate men. The visible churches are always a mix of the remnant and those who are still united to Adam. I don’t have the same high view of the visible church like you. I do have an extremely high view of the remnant church which Christ is the head. If you reread 1 Cor 2, you will find that those without the Spirit of God are unable to discern spiritual truths. That is why the visible church struggles in this world.

 

[2nd_Adam]

What are the “most other things”? Such generalized mis statements truly damage your credibility. Can you please stick to defined teachings please?

I’m not worried about my credibility before men.

For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. - Apostolic teaching

 

[2nd_Adam]

I sense a diversion here. What about Genesis 38 that I referred you to above?

Since Scripture does teach that tradition is binding, it is therefore binding on ALL mankind.

If you can prove sola scriptura we could end this senseless banter regarding authority but since it is not in the Bible I think you are avoiding the issues.

Do you think that fallen man is not guilty of sin simply because he refuses to submit to God’s authority? How about Budhists, Hindus or your favirite LDS? If not, why then is it any different for protestants?

I’m very familar with Genesis 38. Remember, my college roomate was Catholic, and his twin brother has been a Priest for over 20 years. Many Catholics practice approved and unapproved forms of birth control all the time.

 

[izoid]

Oh, the visible church has been wrong on many issues throughout the ages such as racial discrimination, support of American slavery, gender discrimination, divorce discrimination, and currently sexual orientation discrimination. The visible church is made up of redeemed sinners who are all sinners in process who know in part and unregenerate men. The visible churches are always a mix of the remnant and those who are still united to Adam. I don’t have the same high view of the visible church like you. I do have an extremely high view of the remnant church which Christ is the head. If you reread 1 Cor 2, you will find that those without the Spirit of God are unable to discern spiritual truths. That is why the visible church struggles in this world.

You confuse me Adam. On the one hand you scream sola scriptura. On the other you avoid certain scriptures that don’t support your view. Why is this?

I am glad you are familiar with Genesis 38. What does it teach? Why was this poor man killed? After all, he didn’t even sin in your opinion.

Oh yeah, didn’t God promise the Holy Spirit to guide us to all truth? What about the church being the pillar and foundation of truth?

What about my other questions about Buddhists, Hindus and Mormons? Why did you attempt to change the subject again?

 

[2nd_Adam]

YOu confuse me Adam. On the one hand you scream sola scriptura. On the other you avoid certain scriptures that don’t support your view. Why is this?

What about Genesis 38: 8-10? Why was this poor man killed? After all, he didn’t even sin in your opinion.

What about my other questions about Buddhists, Hindus and Mormons? Why did you attempt to change the subject again?

I’m very familar with Genesis 38. Remember, my college roomate was Catholic, and his twin brother has been a Priest for over 20 years. Many Catholics practice approved and unapproved forms of birth control all the time. As a Catholic brother who reject sola scriptura, you have much more to worry about in Scripture revelation than Genesis 38.