"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

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I don’t think it speaks to faith alone. Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James 2 requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Good works performed under God’s grace lead to justification and eternal life.

eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. There is no partiality with God. All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. (Rom 2:7-13)
Well, it’s actually what I stated. We have mutally exclusive views on the doctrine of justification. But that’s okay, as long as we understand where we are coming from in our theologies. I believe wholeheartily that a forensic justification is the truth of the gospel which glorifies God in the face of Jesus Christ. We have gone full circle back to the thread topic of the sufficiency of grace and the sufficiency of Jesus Christ!
 
There is the visible church and the invisible church. The visible church goes way beyond the Catholic Church.
I think you have that backword; the invisible church goes way beyond the Catholic Church, hence the earlier post about a Muslim.

The Catholic Church IS the visible Church.
 
While I agree with you, this is not a biblical description. Scripture always defines unity as connection with Truth, which, as a by product, brings us into unity with one another. Affrection for Christ is not exclued by any means, but when Jesus prays for unity in John, it is inseparable with being as one mind with one another.

Using this type of standard, one could convince oneself, due to ones overwhelming affection and love for Christ, that he does not need the Body at all, and does not need to work out any of his differences with athe other members. Whereas, the Apostles constantly enjoin us to work out the unity among us, and settle our differences so that we may be of “one mind”.

I understand that it seems this way to you, since you seem to have a Headless Body in mind.

For us, the Body cannot be separated from the Head, nor the Bride from the Groom. We are mystically joined, so that being right with Him makes us right with the Church. Love and affection for Him will result in love and affection for His Holy Bride.

Actually, I have never personally seen this, but I will take your word for it. I suppose it is possible to make an idol out of anything.

If I do, does that equate to me believing that His grace is sufficient and efficacious? 😉

When was Cornelius saved?
I am not anti-body, for we are saved into a corporate body. However, the corporate body is not defined by the Catholic Church.
 
I think you have that backword; the invisible church goes way beyond the Catholic Church, hence the earlier post about a Muslim.

The Catholic Church IS the visible Church.
Really, are you saying that Muslims are part of the remnant chosen by grace?
 
Mind replying to this?
I never said that Jesus was a sinner nor did I bring up angels. By all, we were taking about humans as referenced in your other posts about men. Can Jesus be called the New Adam if He only died for the elect, only select few of humanity? Whom is God going to send to redeem the rest?
Gonna take a break and be productive.
 
I am not saying anything. I was simply referring to your previous interaction with someone in this thread.
Guan is the one who brought up the faithful Muslim man. It sounded very Pelagius to me, but I could be wrong.
 
See Romans 5 and 1 Cor 15. The Catholic Church does not believe in universalism, nor do I.
There was no reference to universalism. The question is a good one, one that should be dealt with honestly.
 
Code:
LOL... are you on the Pelagius end of Catholic Theology?
No one can be there, 2nd, because such a construct only exists in your overactive imagination. Perhaps you need to re-read what the heresy of Pelagian is all about? If you do that, you will see that it has nothing to do with what I posted.

There is no “Peladius end of Catholic theology”. The Catholic Church refuted this heresy, along with a number of others, before your Bible was formed. That was done with Sacred Tradition, and not Sola Scriptura.
Code:
What is a faithful Muslim man? And how can he call on the name of the Lord without hearing of Christ?
You know, I would think it would be difficult, and not knowing any Muslims myself, I am not really qualified to make a testimony on it. However, I do know from Scripture that they are the sons of Ishmael, to whom the God of Abraham also made promises. To the extent they know and worship the God of Abraham, it is possible they may call upon His name.

Saul did not recognize the Lord either, but was a very faithful Jew. When Jesus revealed Himself to Saul, he fell upon His knees. I think this can happen to anyone, no matter how misled they may be by religion.

Paul then went and proclaimed Him to the Athenians, who worshipped Him as “the unknown God”, because they did not know who He was.
 
There was no reference to universalism. The question is a good one, one that should be dealt with honestly.
I thought I gave an appropriate response. Do you mind reposting the question for future examination?
 
You know, I would think it would be difficult, and not knowing any Muslims myself, I am not really qualified to make a testimony on it. However, I do know from Scripture that they are the sons of Ishmael, to whom the God of Abraham also made promises. To the extent they know and worship the God of Abraham, it is possible they may call upon His name.

Saul did not recognize the Lord either, but was a very faithful Jew. When Jesus revealed Himself to Saul, he fell upon His knees. I think this can happen to anyone, no matter how misled they may be by religion.

Paul then went and proclaimed Him to the Athenians, who worshipped Him as “the unknown God”, because they did not know who He was.
I think the book of Galatians would help you make the proper distinction between Issac and Ishmael. So, are you saying Muslims can possibly be saved, even though they reject the heart of Christianity that Jesus was crucified for our sins?

Example of Hagar and Sarah

21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; [5] she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

28 Now you, [6] brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31 So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman. - Gal

By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by [1] the flesh? 4 Did you suffer [2] so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify [3] the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” [4] 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit [5] through faith.

The Law and the Promise
15 To give a human example, brothers: [6] even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave [7] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
 
Well, it’s actually what I stated. We have mutally exclusive views on the doctrine of justification. But that’s okay, as long as we understand where we are coming from in our theologies. I believe wholeheartily that a forensic justification is the truth of the gospel which glorifies God in the face of Jesus Christ. We have gone full circle back to the thread topic of the sufficiency of grace and the sufficiency of Jesus Christ!
I’m pretty sure we mean different things by forensic. We believe Paul is stressing that righteousness is booked to our credit as a gift, but do not think he is implying that the gift is merely imputed to the believer in an external way. The divine record corresponds to reality. In other words, we are “counted” righteous because we are “made” righteous in Christ.

For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one the many will be “made” righteous. (Rom 5:19)

The justifying decree of God effects an inward transformation that “makes” us holy and righteous in his sight.
 
There is the visible church and the invisible church. The visible church goes way beyond the Catholic Church.
WRONG again Adam.
Jesus said:
"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden" (Matt 5:14).

Show me where the Bible speaks of an invisible Church or where it was taught by the Early Church.
 
I’m pretty sure we mean different things by forensic. We believe Paul is stressing that righteousness is booked to our credit as a gift, but do not think he is implying that the gift is merely imputed to the believer in an external way. The divine record corresponds to reality. In other words, we are “counted” righteous because we are “made” righteous in Christ.

For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one the many will be “made” righteous. (Rom 5:19)

The justifying decree of God effects an inward transformation that “makes” us holy and righteous in his sight.
That is the classifical debate between the orthodox Catholic Faith and historical confessional Protestantism. We all believe that salvation is past, present and future. I noticed that you quoted Romans 2 and 5. However, those verses that you quoted need to be understood from within the context of Romans 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. Paul wrote very systematically in regards to the gospel of God’s grace. We are declared righteous at the point of conversion because the righteousness that God demands is a perfect righteousness found in Christ alone. We can also know this through the other 11 or 12 Epistles of Paul too. Jesus also bring this truth to light too. Of course we both believe that God is making us righteous, but nobody achieves that perfect righteousness of this side of glory. How can you have a relationship with a Holy God when you are both saint and sinner at the same time?

Romans 5

Peace with God Through Faith

5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we [1] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith [2] into this grace in which we stand, and we [3] rejoice [4] in hope of the glory of God. 3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
 
See Romans 5 and 1 Cor 15. The Catholic Church does not believe in universalism, nor do I.
Did I ever say that? I don’t endorse universalism and if you’ve noticed in my posts, I said “redeemed”, not “saved.”

Can Jesus be rightfully called the New Adam if he only redeemed some, a few of humanity? Whom will God send for the rest?
 
Did I ever say that? I don’t endorse universalism and if you’ve noticed in my posts, I said “redeemed”, not “saved.”

Can Jesus be rightfully called the New Adam if he only redeemed some, a few of humanity? Whom will God send for the rest?
I’m completely lost with your question. Christ came to save His sheep, those whom the Father gave Him to save. Do you see the word of redeemed to be different than the word saved?
 
I’ve been on Catholic Answers since August. It seems that most of the postings by Catholics are not about the person of Jesus Christ.
Yes. Personally, I stringently avoid athiests and non-Christians because I am not interested in that kind of discussion. I generally prefer dialogue where there is a fundamental agreement about the person of Christ.
Rather, the postings are about the Catholic Church. 🤷 We are to proclaim Him, the head of the church. It seems many Catholics rather proclaim the body instead of the head.
Yes, a lot of us are here in support of the mission of CAF, which is to provide “Catholic Answers”. They are, by nature, biased. 😃

You may be here for evangelistic purposes, 2nd, but many of us do our evangelistic work elsewhere. I prefere the face to face approach myself. 👍
 
Yes. Personally, I stringently avoid athiests and non-Christians because I am not interested in that kind of discussion. I generally prefer dialogue where there is a fundamental agreement about the person of Christ.

Yes, a lot of us are here in support of the mission of CAF, which is to provide “Catholic Answers”. They are, by nature, biased. 😃

You may be here for evangelistic purposes, 2nd, but many of us do our evangelistic work elsewhere. I prefere the face to face approach myself. 👍
You lost me too. Are you saying that proclaiming the Catholic Church is different than proclaiming Jesus Christ. The Epistles were written to churches and Christians. The Apostles proclaimed Christ and Him crucified to Christians! I’m not sure your view of CA is in line with this posted CAF Statement of Purpose.
CAF Statement of Purpose
The Catholic Answers Forums (CAF) exists to provide a community for Catholics and non-Catholics of all levels of interest in and/or commitment to the Catholic Church where they may gather on the Internet for discussion in a safe and charitable environment. We do not require that members agree with the Catholic Church in order to participate; only that they remain charitable in their postings.
We provide forums for discussion of various viewpoints within and outside of Christianity; some of the forums that reflect such wide points of view are Traditional Catholicism, Eastern Catholicism, and Non-Catholic Religions. While many who gather in these forums are faithful Catholics, CAF members (Catholic or otherwise) are free to discuss issues of interest to them, even though some of those issues are not entirely in line with the Church’s understanding of Christianity.
We feel that by allowing discussion of issues of concern for Catholics and non-Catholics, CAF is not endorsing those issues that are contrary to Church teachings but allowing members to discuss those issues amongst themselves. Any member confused on a point of Church doctrine is welcome to submit a question to the Ask an Apologist forum (AAA forum protocol information) or to contact Catholic Answers directly.
If an individual member or guest finds that the reading of and/or participation in a particular forum is disturbing to his spiritual peace, we encourage you to visit one of the many other forums we offer, each of which has its own character and ambience. Topics as diverse as the people who post here appear on our boards, and we hope that you will find one suited to your interests and needs.
 
I’m completely lost with your question. Christ came to save His sheep, those whom the Father gave Him to save. Do you see the word of redeemed to be different than the word saved?
Let me put this in another way.

Adam’s original sin marred all of humanity.
Christ is the new Adam.
If Adam’s original sin affected all of humanity, do you think Christ would only save a select few of humanity and be still called the New Adam? Whom is God going to send to save the other affected by Adam’s original sin?

See my original post.
 
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